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Duke_of_Mantua
Guest
I call troll. If it walks like a duck… and so on
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brotherhrolf
Guest
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_22_27.gif Nay, M’lord Duke, nay! No troll here! But a pirate sailing under a false flag! Hoist the Jolly Roger! AAARGGH!
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ibkc
Guest
There’s a “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the forum if you really want to play ‘my church is better than your church.’
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Richie_Nelson
Guest
What do you mean by that? Do you think priests and nuns weren’t grumpy back then? That’s how I remember them.
But back to latin mass. Most of the answers here talk about how good it was. Why would somebody like my mom NOT like it then?
I don’t remember it. All I know is what she told me. It just seems like it would be a really weird way to go to church.
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Richie_Nelson
Guest
I already apologized for getting off the subject. Sorry.
Talking about this stuff brought back a lot of memories. I am not saying my church is better than your church at all. I just remember things always seeming grumpy. It makes me wonder why she quit going and taking us.
thanks, Richie
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirates’ life for me! A “really weird way to go to church”. Enlighten us, good Captain! My ancestors (oh, yes, I have the genealogy to prove it) attended this Mass from ca. 500 AD to 1969 AD. Aaargh! My Captain! All things were made new in 1969? I await your answer my Captain! Like I said, my Irish ancestors flocked out to the countryside to attend this Mass along the hedge rows. Mayhap, we should have bowed to our English overlords and submitted to their Irish Church? You will forgive me, sirrah, if I say to you that you are overly facile with your history. For the nonce! Hoist the Jolly Roger! Boys and girls? We have us a pirate!
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Brother_John
Guest
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Hesychios
Guest
Greetings brotherhrolf,
Long time no talk, I hope you are doing well.
However, I also remember that we were a big building full of individuals worshiping, not a church centered community. I think it was because the parishes were so big, each one was like an old European cathedral in size.
Because I was not used to it, it got so bad for me that when I would see a neighbor I recognised at Mass (even less than ten years ago), I might not approach them after Mass because I was totally unfamiliar with the concept of being community as a parish. I would not know how to deal with it, I lacked the ‘social graces’ of a parish community setting.
I was not raised in an ethnic neighborhood, it was a suburb of Chicago. Our little mission grew into a large multicultaral parish very quickly as the cornfields were torn up for housing projects. The first thing built was a gymnasium for the school and we had Mass in there. The pastor was Irish, the assistant pastors were of all kinds, we had every possible nationality in the parish but we didn’t say ‘boo’ to them on the street. Our houses didn’t even have front porches, just door stoops, and we had air conditioners and television sets so the adults did not converse with each other on the street like back in the city.
After I bacame an adult my pattern of living was just like that, maybe worse, and worse for my children with their videogames and such. Very little interaction with the neighbors, not in the neighborhood and not in the parish either.
This is my theory, you don’t have to agree but I think it has some merit, even in the OP’s case:
The church invested in very large parishes, instead of numerous smaller ones. That was policy, I think it goes back to the formal mandate of the Baltimore Plenery Council that every parish was to have a school, and of course the economics work out better as large conglomerated parishes than smaller ones.
Naturally that pattern continued for more than 100 years of growth in the church and the institution came to see that as a standard. (These economies of scale are not available to rural parishes, I know, so some people are blessed to have nice smaller community parishes even today, provided the diocese has enough priests.)
I did not have a theory about that until I bacame a Byzantine Catholic, and attended parishes that were much more (in actual physical size and capacity) like the smaller local Protestant churches around Chicago. It was against my nature to get involved at first, but it is impossible to be a wallflower in a parish that small, everyone gets to know one and pretty soon that person is up to their elbows in work and friends.
You, I know, are very involved in your cathedral parish, which I applaud, but as these places get bigger a lot of families and individuals get lost in the background. I think that 20 percent of the parish does 80 percent of the involvement, and really the figure of the heavily involved drops to between 5 and 10 percent.
Some people stop coming and no one notices, no one calls and the envelopes arrive in the mail right on schedule. That problem needs to be addressed churchwide, but especially in the bigger cities in the USA.
I think a lot of people feel a sense of abandonment at times, various sorts have personal issues, many are discouraged. I think that is normal for your confession and mine, it’s that “Dark Night of the Soul” we get once in a while. If the parish is too impersonal, these people are in great danger.
As to that sense of abandonment, my father had to live through divorce and none of us realized that he could still receive communion because he did not remarry and did not even have or want a girlfriend. He was discouraged and stopped attending Mass. I don’t remember anyone from the parish contacting him at all. No one missed him or my mother, but the envelopes kept coming. We all needed catechesis on the subject, it was a real teaching opportunity. He’s dead these many years now and it does not matter anymore.
That would never have happened in a parish with a strong sense of community like those little missions one occasionally finds out about, or the BC parishes I encountered many years later.
I hope you can forgive me for the rambling, those are just some of my “stream of consciousness” thoughts.
Pax et Bonum, sincerely
Michael
Long time no talk, I hope you are doing well.
I remember this very well
However, I also remember that we were a big building full of individuals worshiping, not a church centered community. I think it was because the parishes were so big, each one was like an old European cathedral in size.
Because I was not used to it, it got so bad for me that when I would see a neighbor I recognised at Mass (even less than ten years ago), I might not approach them after Mass because I was totally unfamiliar with the concept of being community as a parish. I would not know how to deal with it, I lacked the ‘social graces’ of a parish community setting.
I was not raised in an ethnic neighborhood, it was a suburb of Chicago. Our little mission grew into a large multicultaral parish very quickly as the cornfields were torn up for housing projects. The first thing built was a gymnasium for the school and we had Mass in there. The pastor was Irish, the assistant pastors were of all kinds, we had every possible nationality in the parish but we didn’t say ‘boo’ to them on the street. Our houses didn’t even have front porches, just door stoops, and we had air conditioners and television sets so the adults did not converse with each other on the street like back in the city.
After I bacame an adult my pattern of living was just like that, maybe worse, and worse for my children with their videogames and such. Very little interaction with the neighbors, not in the neighborhood and not in the parish either.
I think those experiments were a big mistake. The problem, as I see it, is the real estate, but that was more difficult to recognize or deal with. It’s easier to make felt banners and introduce hand holding.
This is my theory, you don’t have to agree but I think it has some merit, even in the OP’s case:
The church invested in very large parishes, instead of numerous smaller ones. That was policy, I think it goes back to the formal mandate of the Baltimore Plenery Council that every parish was to have a school, and of course the economics work out better as large conglomerated parishes than smaller ones.
Naturally that pattern continued for more than 100 years of growth in the church and the institution came to see that as a standard. (These economies of scale are not available to rural parishes, I know, so some people are blessed to have nice smaller community parishes even today, provided the diocese has enough priests.)
I did not have a theory about that until I bacame a Byzantine Catholic, and attended parishes that were much more (in actual physical size and capacity) like the smaller local Protestant churches around Chicago. It was against my nature to get involved at first, but it is impossible to be a wallflower in a parish that small, everyone gets to know one and pretty soon that person is up to their elbows in work and friends.
You, I know, are very involved in your cathedral parish, which I applaud, but as these places get bigger a lot of families and individuals get lost in the background. I think that 20 percent of the parish does 80 percent of the involvement, and really the figure of the heavily involved drops to between 5 and 10 percent.
Some people stop coming and no one notices, no one calls and the envelopes arrive in the mail right on schedule. That problem needs to be addressed churchwide, but especially in the bigger cities in the USA.
I think a lot of people feel a sense of abandonment at times, various sorts have personal issues, many are discouraged. I think that is normal for your confession and mine, it’s that “Dark Night of the Soul” we get once in a while. If the parish is too impersonal, these people are in great danger.
As to that sense of abandonment, my father had to live through divorce and none of us realized that he could still receive communion because he did not remarry and did not even have or want a girlfriend. He was discouraged and stopped attending Mass. I don’t remember anyone from the parish contacting him at all. No one missed him or my mother, but the envelopes kept coming. We all needed catechesis on the subject, it was a real teaching opportunity. He’s dead these many years now and it does not matter anymore.
That would never have happened in a parish with a strong sense of community like those little missions one occasionally finds out about, or the BC parishes I encountered many years later.
I hope you can forgive me for the rambling, those are just some of my “stream of consciousness” thoughts.
Pax et Bonum, sincerely
Michael
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Duke_of_Mantua
Guest
LOL! Someone should be a writer for the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
And I hope you are well too, Michael. The ethnic issue can’t be ignored. We moved out to the 'burbs" in 1956. Fourteen houses on the block - ten Catholic families. Our church was established by Sicilians - St. Rosalie with the skull at her feet, seventy-five years earlier.
All the families were headed by a vet (see GI Bill). The families were mostly Irish and French from New Orleans. Sicilians? Yep, they had been there for 100 years. My godfather and uncle was Sicilian. This round faced, freckled, strawberry blonde kid thought he was Sicilian (and still thinks he is - you take after your god parents
).
Community for me is having a picture of me as the crucifer for the Saint Rosalie procession. What happened up north did not happen down here. We all knew that we were Catholic and we got along.
It was a schock to me to see just how segregated Chicago was. Never our experience down here.
All the families were headed by a vet (see GI Bill). The families were mostly Irish and French from New Orleans. Sicilians? Yep, they had been there for 100 years. My godfather and uncle was Sicilian. This round faced, freckled, strawberry blonde kid thought he was Sicilian (and still thinks he is - you take after your god parents
).Community for me is having a picture of me as the crucifer for the Saint Rosalie procession. What happened up north did not happen down here. We all knew that we were Catholic and we got along.
It was a schock to me to see just how segregated Chicago was. Never our experience down here.
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Richie_Nelson
Guest
Like, wow!
I ask a few questions and:
thanks, Richie
I ask a few questions and:
- a fight breaks out between two other people.
- I get called names like duck, pirate, and troll.
- I get told to take my questions elsewhere.
thanks, Richie
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Rolltide
Guest
First, I apologize for Duke of Mantua’s comments. He should not have assumed that you were a troll. Please understand that your question is one of the most common questions that we get on this board, and we’ve had to defend against it literally hundreds of times. It is also not uncommon for Protestants with a distaste for the Catholic Church to come on here and pick a fight simply for the purpose of antagonizing people, and with no real desire to learn. That’s why some of the people on here get defensive, and it’s clear that you are not one of these people. Please don’t take the actions of one or two people as representative of the entire Catholic faith. Most of us here would like you to stay. It is certainly not uncommon for discussions on this board to get heated. Remember what they say… the three things you should never discuss if you don’t want an argument are sex, politics, and religion.
This comment is actually very telling. Far be it from me to know what happened between your mom and the church, but the fact that your parents eloped and divorced would indeed have been an issue within the Catholic Church. Catholicism takes marriage extremely seriously, and does not allow for divorce. It does allow annulments in certain circumstances, but annulments used to be very uncommon. I know more than one person who became disillusioned with the Catholic Church because it refused to recognized their marriage, or refused to grant an annulment. It sounds like much of your mom’s anger may, in reality, have more to do with this than the Latin Mass. When people are angry, other things that they disagree with will be magnified, and if you were growing up in that environment, it would have tainted your opinion of the Church too. She also may have been mad because her actions ended up hurting her parents, and she blamed the Church for that.
Out of curiosity, do you know why they had to elope?
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Your_Abbott
Guest
The latin Mass was before my time, and it seems to be a long time ago.
Why would someone want to go back to a time when the mass was unintelligible? Sounds like the Dark Ages,
Do these folks want to go back to something that is not to be understood by the faithful
I think, and maybe it is just me, it is the quickest way to empty out the churches for good.
Your Abbott
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stmaria
Guest
Yes it is just you. I doubt that all of the saints, martyrs and over 250 Popes believed that the Traditional Mass was “unintelligible”.
The faithful understand the Latin Mass. It is the “unfaithful” that do not.
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SemperFidelis
Guest
In case you were wondering, the Traditional Latin Mass was never abrogated. It is the “Mass of all time” and is neither before your’s or anyone else’s time.
This is most absurd argument I’ve ever heard made against the TLM. I’m willing to bet you’ve never even been to one before. I’m in my early twenties, and I had no problem following along the first time I went to a TLM about six months ago. Unintelligible my rear end…
Tell that to the countless number of faithful who are yearning to go to a TLM. A simple understanding of Church history would prove this point to be false. The Church is in the biggest crisis it has ever been in, and I can tell you the Novus Ordo Mass surely hasn’t helped the situation. I’ve seen posters like you come and go on Catholic Answers. A little advice: in case you haven’t noticed, this is the Traditional Catholicism Forum, so don’t post if all you’re going to do is bash traditional Catholics and the Mass they go to. I’ve seen countless posters do such, and they almost always end up getting banned. In addition to that, maybe you should follow your own advice from another thread:
Your Abbot:
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Rolltide
Guest
Actually, it was last in wide use just a mere 40 years ago. Before that, it was in use for MOST of church history. Further, even after Vatican II, it was never completely eliminated, although it’s use was restricted.
First, the Dark Ages were not as dark as everyone tends to think (I should know, I’m an historian). Second, how did people figure out what was going on in the Mass for the last 1960 years before the current one? (and not just in Latin, but in Greek and other languages before that.) Seems like they did just fine.
No, they are looking for better catechesis, and less compromise with theology. They want an expansion of Latin, NOT an elimination of the vernacular. Muslims MUST learn the Qu’ran in Arabic. Jews learn Hebrew in order to study the Torah. Are those religions about to die off? Do they have no clue what’s going on?
You are aware, of course, that the CURRENT Mass is designed to be said PRIMARILY in Latin? It is permitted to be said in vernacular languages, and usually is, but it is ABSOLUTELY legitimate to say the current Mass completely in Latin, save for the homily.
In any case, the current pope has INDEED said that a smaller, more faithful church may in fact be desirable, if it means that people are actually PRACTICING their faith without compromise.
Now, with all that said, let me say that I have NO problem with using the vernacular languages, although our current English translation is a mess (that’s about to be corrected though). I do think that Latin should be FAR more widely used than it is. The Vatican II documents even STATE this! I’ve gone through the many reasons why it would be a good thing above, but it would be much easier for priests to use Latin in parishes with large foreign speaking populations, for exampe.
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Rolltide
Guest
It should also be pointed out that some of the fastest growing parishes in the US are ones that offer Traditional Latin Mass communities. They also tend to produce the most vocations to the priesthood (likely because they are the most conservative). Also, one of the biggest age groups of those attending the TLM are people age 20-35 (in other words, YOUNG people).
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Ask the ‘man in the street’. "Mass in Latin? “What are you talking about?” We turned that corner about 40 years ago. You want to make a U turn to alieniate all Roman Catholics, except a few latin experts.
Next time round for revolutions, we will have a total revival of the Mass, but it won’t be in Latin, with all those extraneous parts, like the last Gospel, and such.
Americans don’t want to go back to the Dark Ages.
Your Abbott
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Can you quote some sociologists, like Fr. Greeley, who has taken up a survey, and published his results:
- More vocations
- More favored in some of the fastest growing communities
- Age groups favoring the latin Mass between 20-35.
Your Abbott
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Is that right? This is a Traditional site? There is no room for Roman Catholics who don’t share this view?
I haven’t seen that in writting. Maybe I should write to Karl Keating and ask him if that is true?
Your Abbott
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