Question about Latin Mass

[SemperFidelis]

Is that right? This is a Traditional site? There is no room for Roman Catholics who don’t share this view?

I haven’t seen that in writting. Maybe I should write to Karl Keating and ask him if that is true?

Your Abbott

Clearly reading comprehension isn’t one of your strong suits either. I didn’t say this entire website, I said this forum, hence why it’s called the Traditional Catholicism Forum ie: meant for traditional Catholics or those who are inquiring about traditional Catholicism. There are many other forums for you to play your “games” on like the Liturgy and the Sacraments forum. There’s no reason for you to come on here and bash the very folks this forum was made and intended for. This aside, is there any reason why you didn’t answer any of my other points, or is that just because you’re out of answers? That seems to be the most likely conclusion after reading some of the other threads you’ve posted on.

 

[Your_Abbott]

Clearly reading comprehension isn’t one of your strong suits either. I didn’t say this entire website, I said this forum, hence why it’s called the Traditional Catholicism Forum ie: meant for traditional Catholics or those who are inquiring about traditional Catholicism. There are many other forums for you to play your “games” on like the Liturgy and the Sacraments forum. There’s no reason for you to come on here and bash the very folks this forum was made and intended for. This aside, is there any reason why you didn’t answer any of my other points, or is that just because you’re out of answers? That seems to be the most likely conclusion after reading some of the other threads you’ve posted on.

I hope the other posters don’t share this feeling. If this is not a Traditionalist site, then nothing says that this thread is a exclusive Traditionalist thread.

If Mr. Keating then would not agree with you then I should be allowed here. As for bashing, I am not in any attack mode.

As for the ‘stickees’ I saw that attracted me to this site are the unwillingness to make these SSPX or Sede Vacantist sites. I like the site where it is, open to every one to comment and ask questions, and to answer. Am I not right?

Your Abbott

 

[SemperFidelis]

If this is not a Traditionalist site, then nothing says that this thread is a exclusive Traditionalist thread.

Then answer me this: Why is this forum called the Traditional Catholicism Forum then?

As for bashing, I am not in any attack mode.

What would you call posts #33 or #38 then? That most certaintly is bashing on a Mass that has not and can not be abrogated and has been around almost fifty times as long as the Novus Ordo. Every post you’ve made since joining has, to some effect, been intended to “take a swipe” at the TLM. Apparantely, you’re oblivious to how your posts come across.

As for the ‘stickees’ I saw that attracted me to this site are the unwillingness to make these SSPX or Sede Vacantist sites.

Who said anything about the SSPX or sedevacantists? Traditional Catholicism isn’t exclusive to these groups alone.

I like the site where it is, open to every one to comment and ask questions, and to answer. Am I not right?

Sure, but posters that spend all their time “trad-bashing” oftentimes don’t last very long around here. Just a little advice for a new poster. You can take or leave it…

 

[Your_Abbott]

QUOTE]

I wasn’t aware that this site was called "the Traditional Catholicism Forum?

I wasn’t aware that you were the Moderator, and that you were in charge.

Nonetheless, we all appreciate your very charitable, warm comments. With that attitude, the Latin mass doesn’t seem to be doing much for you.

Your Abbott

 

[SemperFidelis]

I appreciate your very charitable comments.

So, you’re the pot then?

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Ritchie,

… Where we go now, we feel welcome, the people are friendly, and the pastor gives awesome sermons. When we leave church, people are happy, and they talk, and everyone feels good about church.

The church I belong to can be described in just the way you describe it here, and the Divine Liturgy is glorious (However, you might see it as weird, I understand that no exposure to it would make it seem strange to you). I am sure that you would find many Catholic Masses to be equally as friendly and joyful…even glorious…especially with Easter season in sight. Well worth another look.

Church is also the place where we can bring our burdens and lay them down. We are only human after all. We bring our wounds to the Great Physician, perhaps you sensed that in your mother and others around you.

But I agree the worship service should be a friendly wholesome experience. One should always feel that they were glad to have come and want more of it. And we should be encompassed in a community that cares more for each other altogether, than each one cares for himself.

So, were Catholics more grumpy or less grumpy when mass was in latin? Seems like they would have been even more grumpy if they didn’t know what was happening and couldn’t participate.

thanks, Richie

Grumpy really has nothing to do with it.

You may be mistaking a sense of the solemn for grumpiness. The whole idea here is worship of the Divine God, our number one job here. Catholics know what they are doing in the Mass and why.

Catholics are very aware of the necessity to worship their Divine Creator. These are the words I remember from my catechism training as a kid (I paraphrase):

Who is God?

• God is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things.
• God is a spirit infinitely perfect.
• God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.
• God is everywhere.
• God knows all things, even our most secret thoughts, words, and actions.
• God can do all things, and nothing is impossible to Him.
• God is all just, all holy and all merciful.
  Why did God make you?
• God made me to know Him…
• God made me to love Him, and…
• God made me to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.
  This does not really sound like grumpy religion to me, it is rather the anticipation of wonderful things. Sometimes we forget that it’s not about us really, it’s ultimately about God.

We need to participate with God, we need to cooperate with His intent to have us near Him always. Part of that process requires our involvement in worship. Our worship should be as dignified and glorious as we as a community can possibly present through love of Him.

Living through the sad times is rough. I am sorry about your bad memories and experiences, and I pray for your healing. Please don’t blame the church for our individual failings. Please pray for us as we pray for you.

*O Lord our God, accept this fervent prayer from Your servants and have mercy on us according to the multitude of Your mercy (Psalm 51:1), and bestow Your compassion upon us and upon all Your people who await the abundant mercies that come from You. (Nehemiah 13:22).

    For You are a merciful God Who loves mankind and we give glory to You,          to the +Father and to the +Son and to the +Holy Spirit, always now and ever          and forever.

Peace and all good things,*
Michael*

 

[SemperFidelis]

I wasn’t aware that this site was called "the Traditional Catholicism Forum?

Let’s try this again then. Click on the main page. From there, there are several forums to choose from. There’s one there called the Traditional Catholicism Forum. This is where you happen to keep posting.

I wasn’t aware that you were the Moderator, and that you were in charge.

I wasn’t aware that I stated that I was…

Nonetheless, we all appreciate your very charitable, warm comments. With that attitude, the Latin mass doesn’t seem to be doing much for you.

You seem to have forgotten, or never realized the fact that you’re the one who came on the Traditional Catholicism Forum and immediately started bashing the Traditional Mass. Uncharitable? I stated nothing but fact. You’re the one who came in with guns blazin’ my friend.

 

[Rolltide]

Can you quote some sociologists, like Fr. Greeley, who has taken up a survey, and published his results:

1. More vocations
2. More favored in some of the fastest growing communities
3. Age groups favoring the latin Mass between 20-35.

I will sign up right away when I see that survey with those results.

Your Abbott

It’s midnight where I’m at right now, and I have to get up early tomorrow, but if you wait until then, I’d be happy to post the necessary citations and documentation. I can’t track all of the data down at this hour. Talk to you tomorrow.

Rolltide

 

[Your_Abbott]

Let’s try this again then. Click on the main page. From there, there are several forums to choose from. There’s one there called the Traditional Catholicism Forum. This is where you happen to keep posting.

You seem to have forgotten, or never realized the fact that you’re the one who came on the Traditional Catholicism Forum and immediately started bashing the Traditional Mass. Uncharitable? I stated nothing but fact. You’re the one who came in with guns blazin’ my friend.

Yeah it says “Semperfidelis’ Thread” - all else keep out!

You just want people on this thread to agree with you?

My guns are not blazing at all. I came here for information, and to discuss. You say none of that is possible. Only those who profess your viewpoint is welcome.

It is not your site, or that of Traditionalists. You are acting like some gangster who is protecting turf in So Philly.

You have to open your heart to God’s grace.

Your Abbott

 

[I_Believe]

What’s it called when there is an infection, and the infection is fought off, but keeps coming back, time after time ?

You know, when it mutates ? Wait, " vicious cycle " ? Is that it ?

Anyway, don’t pay no attention to the mean ole grumpy folks here Richie. Soon you’ll be able to read 'em like a book, and start utilizing the ignore feature to tune them suckers out.

See we have this ongoing thing. Folks get banned, for good reason, but they come back. ( email addys and user names are a dime a dozen ya know). They love to ridicule and contradict, so it’s tough for em to stay away.

Pretty soon you’ll be able to sniff 'em out.
Just like a good beagle hound.

Have a good’n !

 

[Richie_Nelson]

My wife was not happy that I chose to attend mass today at a nearby catholic church.

It was pretty much the way I remembered it. It was ok, but not particularly warm or friendly.

What really threw me for a loop, was the opening song. It was called Awake O Sleeper, but the music was Amazing Grace.

I always thought Amazing Grace was like the ultimate protestant hymn. It was really weird to hear that song in a catholic church, even if the words were different.

After all these years, it was still pretty much the same though. At least catholics are consistient.

thanks, Richie

 

[Richie_Nelson]

This comment is actually very telling. Far be it from me to know what happened between your mom and the church, but the fact that your parents eloped and divorced would indeed have been an issue within the Catholic Church. Catholicism takes marriage extremely seriously, and does not allow for divorce. It does allow annulments in certain circumstances, but annulments used to be very uncommon. I know more than one person who became disillusioned with the Catholic Church because it refused to recognized their marriage, or refused to grant an annulment. It sounds like much of your mom’s anger may, in reality, have more to do with this than the Latin Mass. When people are angry, other things that they disagree with will be magnified, and if you were growing up in that environment, it would have tainted your opinion of the Church too. She also may have been mad because her actions ended up hurting her parents, and she blamed the Church for that.

Out of curiosity, do you know why they had to elope?

Some issue with the catholic church, since Dad was baptist. He wouldn’t promise to make us kids catholic or something to that effect. But he never went to church anyway, and Mom took us to mass until I was around fifth or sixth grade.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Some issue with the catholic church, since Dad was baptist. He wouldn’t promise to make us kids catholic or something to that effect. But he never went to church anyway, and Mom took us to mass until I was around fifth or sixth grade.

Richie my father was raised in an non-denominational evangelical German protestant church. He worked two jobs to put the three of us all the way through Catholic high school. It was he who got me up and drove me to serve at those “grumpy” Latin Masses at 6am.

You were astounded to hear Amazing Grace. I’m not. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve sung it in four part harmony at my cathedral without changing the words - even “a wretch like me”. Nor how many times we’ve sung A Mighty Fortress is Our God as an entrance hymn.

As far as the liturgy goes, most Catholic Churches are NOT what they were forty years ago. I have driven 25 miles one way for the last 25 years to avoid what you appear to be wanting. My geographical parish church is five miles away and appears to be what you desire. Greeters in the vestibule welcoming you at the top of their lungs. “Turn around and introduce yourself to your neighbors”. Everyone holds hands for the Lord’s Prayer and Father flies off the altar to shake hands with his parishoners for the Sign of Peace. And after Mass, everyone races to see who can get out of the parking lot the quickest.

I’ve seen my cathedral parish grow from 200 parishoners in 1983 to 2,000 families today. We are reverent (grumpy) but my two grown sons can attend Mass with me today and come to the parish hall for coffee and donuts after Mass and will be swarmed by parishoners who’ve known them since they were baptized. Sounds like a community to me.

And as for grumpy…well, I was asked by a friend to attend the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy for Holy Saturday (we would call it the Easter Vigil). It was then that I realized all that we Roman Catholics have lost by abandoning our traditions. Grumpy? No. I cried. I really did - out of beauty and out of loss.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Is that a normal thing, to take an old song and give it new words?

It kinda reminded me of a baptist revival to hear Amazing Grace.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Is that a normal thing, to take an old song and give it new words?

It kinda reminded me of a baptist revival to hear Amazing Grace.

Yes. Hymn melodies are metered. Hymn words are metered as well such that the words can be sung to different melodies. I don’t have a hymnal handy where I can list some. We have several hymns in our hymnal which are Irish folk songs in melody while the words are religious.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Yeah it says “Semperfidelis’ Thread” - all else keep out!

You just want people on this thread to agree with you?

Where did I say anthing of the sort? All are welcome here, but folks who come on the Traditional Catholicism Forum and bash the Traditional Mass are not. It’s called the Traditional Catholicism Forum for a reason, something you can’t seem to understand. Traditional Catholics don’t always agree with everything. An example: some support the SSPX, some don’t. These kind of arguments are fine and encouraged. It’s also fine for non-traditional Catholics to come on here and inquire about something. Sometimes traditional Catholics make absurd “out-in-left field” statements about something (just like everybody else), and it is perfectly acceptable for a non-traditional Catholic to respond. It is not okay however, to come on here and bash traditional Catholics or the Mass they go to. I never said or even implied that I think everyone should say the same thing and agree all the time, or that only traditional Catholics are allowed here, so quit saying that I said this. There are many posters who regularly post on this forum who are not traditional Catholics and they contribute to the threads in a good way. Bashing the traditional Mass on a forum that is dedicated to traditional Catholicism is not acceptable and does not contribute in a good way to the threads. You’ve made it all too clear that this is your intention.

My guns are not blazing at all. I came here for information, and to discuss.

Where are your questions then? The first two posts you made on this thread in no way were searches for information. The only thing you did was rant on how old-fashioned and dark agey the TLM is, or how unintelligible it is and how no one can understand it. In another thread you made your point that the TLM should all but be abolished in responding to a post where all I said was:

me refering to the TLM and the drive one would have to make to get there]: Oh, it’ll be worth it. I promise you that.

Your post responding to this one, was in no way relevant to the topic at hand. You took a very short post I made to someone else and decided it was your time to belittle the TLM, and anyone who associates with it or makes an effort to go to it. This is called “bashing,” something you’ve made clear you have no problem doing.

Only those who profess your viewpoint is welcome.

A slanderous lie that I’ve already refuted.

It is not your site,

Didn’t say it was…

or that of Traditionalists

Answer me this then: why is this forum called the Traditional Catholicism Forum then? Do you think maybe that there’s some purpose behind labeling it such?

You are acting like some gangster who is protecting turf in So Philly.

I know, I’m SO evil…

You have to open your heart to God’s grace.

I already have. Maybe you should open your heart to God’s grace and go to the “Mass of all time.”

 

[stmaria]

Your Abbott;3406343]Ask the ‘man in the street’. "Mass in Latin? “What are you talking about?” We turned that corner about 40 years ago. You want to make a U turn to alieniate all Roman Catholics, except a few latin experts.

The "man in the street " is probably godless. He could care less about how one worships God. Actually Latin is making a comeback with the newly ordained priests. They are saying more and more prayers in Latin. It will not alienate Roman Catholics. It will unite all of the different languages and cultures.

Next time round for revolutions, we will have a total revival of the Mass, but it won’t be in Latin, with all those extraneous parts, like the last Gospel, and such.

It wont be entirely in the vernacular either. Who knows maybe the Last Gospel of John will come back and the Leonine prayers are said at some Churches after the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Looks like you are in for a rough time, Abbott

 

[richardwy]

Why would someone want to go back to a time when the mass was unintelligible? Sounds like the Dark Ages.

Do these folks want to go back to something that is not to be understood by the faithful? I think, and maybe it is just me, it is the quickest way to empty out the churches for good.

This caught my eye. If you have a chance visit Chartres Cathedral in France. Dates from the high middle-ages.

You will will have no trouble understanding the Cathedral from afar, from up close, or from inside.

 

[Rolltide]

Is that a normal thing, to take an old song and give it new words?

It kinda reminded me of a baptist revival to hear Amazing Grace.

Actually, it’s very common to hear Amazing Grace with the original words in a Catholic Church as well…

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Actually, it’s very common to hear Amazing Grace with the original words in a Catholic Church as well…

That really surprises me. Well, the wife is still not too happy with me. I guess I just wanted to see what it was I remembered. She started in on me about all kinds of stuff like praying to statues and such. I told her we didn’t do that.

I’m sure it will pass eventually. thanks for all your answers

Richie