Question about marital act

[LittleFlower378]

My question then is, what are we to think of a woman “touching herself” during the marital sexual act itself?

What about her spouse touching her in a loving manner on her different erotic zones. I think that is permissable.

 

[Beryllos]

Is all touching of the genitals prohibited to spouses?

No. However, touching the genitals of yourself, or of your spouse, in the same or similar manner as would be done in masturbation (i.e. manipulative sexual acts) is immoral. Any type of masturbatory touching is immoral (regardless of whether or when sexual climax occurs) because it is a sexual act that is non-unitive and non-procreative.

Sorry, I am not getting that. Phrases like “in the same or similar manner,” “manipulative” (which literally means “by hand” but could be generalized to mean “touching”), and “masturbatory” attempt to define masturbation according to physical aspects (e.g., touching and physiological pleasure response).

The context and intent are not irrelevant at all. The act described in the original post could, I imagine, for some couples, lead to self-absorption and separateness in the marital sexual act; that, of course, falls short of God’s plan and should be avoided. For other couples, however, it could be an integral part of the shared experience, and greatly enhance the unitive aspect of the marital sexual relationship. There’s nothing wrong with that!

 

[Convert_in_99]

Is all touching of the genitals prohibited to spouses?

No. However, touching the genitals of yourself, or of your spouse, in the same or similar manner as would be done in masturbation (i.e. manipulative sexual acts) is immoral. Any type of masturbatory touching is immoral (regardless of whether or when sexual climax occurs) because it is a sexual act that is non-unitive and non-procreative.

Any claim about the morality of an act which “dissociates the moral act from the bodily dimensions of its exercise is contrary to the teaching of Scripture and Tradition.” (Pope John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, n. 49.) In other words, the concrete act (the type of behavior) cannot be separated from its inherent moral meaning. An intrinsically evil act cannot become moral merely because the will directs the act toward a particular purpose. Certain kinds of acts are inherently immoral by the very nature of the act. And so, masturbatory touching of yourself or of your spouse does not become moral by being done within marriage, nor by being done to prepare for the marital act. The bodily act itself cannot be dissociated from its inherent moral meaning. So when an act, such as masturbation, is intrinsically evil, it can never become moral, not with any intention, not in any circumstances, not within marriage, not in association with the marital sexual act.

Which acts of foreplay are moral?

Any act is moral if the intention and the moral object are both good, and if the good consequences of the act outweigh any bad consequences. If the intention and consequences are good, then the morality of an act of foreplay will depend on the moral object. Any sexual act which is non-marital, or non-unitive, or non-procreative is intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, even if used for the purpose of foreplay, due to the deprivation in the moral object of the marital or unitive or procreative meanings. However, acts such as a husband kissing and caressing his wife’s breasts, or a wife kissing and embracing her husband passionately, are not sexual acts per se, and so these acts are generally moral and do not need to be unitive and procreative.

In order to be moral, each and every sexual act must be unitive and procreative. Non-unitive or non-procreative sexual acts (i.e. unnatural sexual acts) are intrinsically evil, and do not become moral by being used as a type of foreplay, nor by occurring before, during, or after an act of natural marital relations.

catechism.cc/articles/QA.htm#03

Are you Ron Conte’s sock puppet?

 

[Rau]

I don’t disagree with that, but the question is not whether masturbation is acceptable if done with a spouse. I think we agree that it would not be morally acceptable. The question is whether the act described in the original post is, in fact, masturbation. I think it is not. I will explain later. (Gotta feed the kids right now. )

I think that is the relevant question. During intercourse, the parties do each strive for pleasure. This is natural. Should a hand play a part in that, in addition to the movement of hips, and without detracting from the conjugal act, it is hard to see the label of masturbation is being properly applied.

 

[E_7]

My question then is, what are we to think of a woman “touching herself” during the marital sexual act itself? Does this fall under the umbrella of masturbation, or is it different because of the marital act it is occurring within/the reasoning behind it? I know that there is not one church document that clearly spells out every little detail about what is permissible, but I was hoping that some others might be able to bring in knowledge of the Church to help me see some different perspectives on this question. Thanks!

I think it is still masturbation on her part, and lust on the part of the husband if he asked her to do it. Let’s see

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

and let’s see

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

But for what purpose will a husband ask his wife to touch herself if it isn’t out of lust? Why can’t he do it to her instead?

 

[Kelfa28]

I think that is the relevant question. During intercourse, the parties do each strive for pleasure. This is natural. Should a hand play a part in that, in addition to the movement of hips, and without detracting from the conjugal act, it is hard to see the label of masturbation is being properly applied.

Exactly my understanding.

Sorry…but there is absolutely nothing that convinces me that anything is prohibited during the marital act itself.

This includes a woman helping herself get there while the act is occurring.

I fail to see any relationship to masturbation in this instance.

Further…the Church has never come up with a list to describe exactly what is allowed during the marital act and what isn’t.

 

[Kelfa28]

I think it is still masturbation on her part, and lust on the part of the husband if he asked her to do it. Let’s see

and let’s see

But for what purpose will a husband ask his wife to touch herself if it isn’t out of lust? Why can’t he do it to her instead?

There is absolutely nothing sinful about it…especially if it’s during the act itself.

It helps the woman make it to orgasm easier and quicker.

It’s nice to be able to climax with your husband at the exact same time.
Personally, I don’t think there is anything more beautiful and fulfilling then climaxing with your spouse, during the act…at the same time.

It’s not possible for a man to concentrate on what he is doing and manually stimulate his wife at the same time.

In fact…I think there is far more issues with a man manually stimulating his wife after the act has occurred.
Its tougher, it takes longer and it really isn’t that unitive to begin with.

It’s nowhere near the same thing as having an orgasm together.

 

[Kelfa28]

There is absolutely nothing sinful about it…especially if it’s during the act itself.

It helps the woman make it to orgasm easier and quicker.

It’s nice to be able to climax with your husband at the exact same time.
Personally, I don’t think there is anything more beautiful and fulfilling then climaxing with your spouse, during the act…at the same time.
You’re both concentrating hard on the coming orgasm with each other and you are focusing on each other.
How in the world is that lustful?
Regardless of who is doing what at that point.

It’s not possible for a man to concentrate on what he is doing and manually stimulate his wife at the same time.

In fact…I think there is far more issues with a man manually stimulating his wife after the act has occurred.
Its tougher, it takes longer and it really isn’t that unitive to begin with.

It’s nowhere near the same thing as having an orgasm together.

 

[E_7]

In fact…I think there is far more issues with a man manually stimulating his wife after the act has occurred.
Its tougher, it takes longer and it really isn’t that unitive to begin with.

You can say that again .

 

[WT1]

On the bright side at least they aren’t telling you to go talk to your priest! Ok tip toeing out of the thread.

 

[E_7]

On the bright side at least they aren’t telling you to go talk to your priest! Ok tip toeing out of the thread.

it’s a good question and very interesting for married couples, but we are unsure what’s the right answer, we can’t say with certainty. IMO, when in doubt, always play safe.

 

[Kelfa28]

it’s a good question and very interesting for married couples, but we are unsure what’s the right answer, we can’t say with certainty. IMO, when in doubt, always play safe.

Well, I can speak for my husband and I…when in doubt…do what works for us until we can find something within Catholic cannon that says otherwise.

I have yet to find compelling evidence that a wife stimulating herself during the marital act is the same thing as masturbation.
Anymore then a man stimulating his wife before or after the marital act itself.

Topics like this get lumped in with whether toys, lubricants or even lingerie could be considered sinful…even within the marital act.

Like I posted before…the Catholic Church has never composed of a list of exactly what is considered morally wrong and sinful during the marital act.

Therefore…I fail to see how many of these arguments bear any weight.

If both spouses are fine with it and it’s not corrupting the martial act…then why not?

 

[Jeannie52]

catholic1seeks, thank you for all that you explained. I really appreciate it!

I am new so I’m trying to find topics where I can share. My husband and I are Catholic and we were married in a Roman Catholic Church 8 years ago.

God bless you!

 

[Bookcat]

catholic1seeks, thank you for all that you explained. I really appreciate it!

I am new so I’m trying to find topics where I can share. My husband and I are Catholic and we were married in a Roman Catholic Church 8 years ago.

God bless you!

It is important to note that the source he found is NOT a valid source. It is NOT approved by the Catholic Church (which it would need be).

It is NOT a source I would recommend (or I dare say that Catholic Answers would recommend.)

Without getting into the exact question or content - it important not take* that source as a guide.*

Stick with sources such as the actual Catechism -and solid works of known orthodox Catholic moral theologians.