Question about marriage

[InTheWilderness]

I have a couple of questions about marriage. I understand most of the basics regarding Catholic teaching on marriage, but there are some details I can’t quite figure out.

I have friend who is engaged to be married. He is what could be called a lapsed Catholic. His fiancée is from what I have heard a lax/liberal Catholic. They are to be married in the Catholic church, but not at a parish either currently attends, since they are college students. This means a somewhat less than ideal marriage prep process, and the marriage being done by a priest that doesn’t really know them.

Now I have reason to wonder about how honestly and seriously they are going to take their wedding vows. I have some specific concerns, but I won’t post those because of a certain expectation of confidentiality. If I were the person responsible for ensuring they were properly prepared for marriage, I would have some reservations given what I currently know, based on what I have discussed with my friend.

How does one know for certain that such a marriage is valid? Should a person participate in a suspect wedding? What should be done to encourage them to see marriage in the way the Church teaches?

I don’t want to come off as some nutty, over-zealous religious type and thus drive them further away, but at the same time I now think the Church is right about marriage, and so I don’t want them to make a mistake by starting off on the wrong foot.

On an unrelated note, I have a Catholic relative who was divorced and then remarried outside the Church. What would be the path for such a person to make amends with the Church be? It seems from the particulars of what I know that this would be a very difficult case.

 

[Karin]

On an unrelated note, I have a Catholic relative who was divorced and then remarried outside the Church. What would be the path for such a person to make ammends with the Church be? It seems from the particulars of what I know that this would be a very difficult case.

they would need to seek an annulment of their first marriage(s) and in the process of seeking this they would have to live as sister and brother… once the annulment was recieved they would proceed to have their current marriage convalidates

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Since I don’t know to what you’re referring… and I very much respect that you’re not stating that on a public bulletin board (like this one) on the Internet… I suggest that you learn what the reasons for annulment (“declaration of nullity”) are.

Moreover, pray about it… pray for your friend and his fiancee that they prepare solidly for their marriage. This includes no sexual relations at all… and going to Confession before their wedding.

 

[InTheWilderness]

After additional thought, I think I can give the general nature of my concerns without being specific.

There is reason to think that they intend to wait to have children, which isn’t a big problem by itself. However, I suspect they would probably use contraception to achieve that, which obviously is a big problem.

Also, I don’t really think they are sincerely committed to practicing the faith after marriage, which brings into question how likely they are to raise the children in the Church.

As far as I can tell that looks like grounds for nullity, but I don’t really know for certain. Further, I don’t really know what I should do even if was certain.

Prayer is certainly part of the answer, but I hope there is also a more concrete solution. If not, I guess I will have to trust in God.

 

[Paul_from_MA]

I don’t want to come off as some nutty, over-zealous religious type and thus drive them further away, but at the same time I now think the Church is right about marriage, and so I don’t want them to make a mistake by starting off on the wrong foot.

If you care about this couple, and you care about the community within which they are marrying, it can only be a spiritual work of mercy to have an honest conversation with them.

SPIRITUAL WORKS OF MERCY
Admonish the sinner
Instruct the ignorant
Counsel the doubtful
Comfort the sorrowful
Bear wrongs patiently
Forgive all injuries
Pray for the living and the dead

Who gets to decide what’s too zealous? If you don’t know whether or not you’re going too far … I’d propose that you pray about it, and seek the counsel of those whose faith you admire.

From my point of view, anyone who makes an honest attempt to assist a young person (or couple) to conform their sexual and marriage ideas with those of God is doing good work. If they’re unfairly criticized for it they can look at that criticism as a (very!) mild form of persecution – and it’s the persecuted who are blessed.

 

[YinYangMom]

After additional thought, I think I can give the general nature of my concerns without being specific.

There is reason to think that they intend to wait to have children, which isn’t a big problem by itself. However, I suspect they would probably use contraception to achieve that, which obviously is a big problem.

Also, I don’t really think they are sincerely committed to practicing the faith after marriage, which brings into question how likely they are to raise the children in the Church.

As far as I can tell that looks like grounds for nullity, but I don’t really know for certain. Further, I don’t really know what I should do even if was certain.

Prayer is certainly part of the answer, but I hope there is also a more concrete solution. If not, I guess I will have to trust in God.

First, they’re college students…so they’re young and perhaps not quite fully matured yet…who is??

Keep in mind that the marriage ritual itself confers upon the couple blessings and true sacramental graces which will sustain them through their marriage.

While they may intend to contracept and not really follow the faith, only God knows how He plans to use you and all the other witnesses attending the marriage ceremony to bring this couple closer to Him over time.

Their situation is not dire enough to warrant dissuading them from marriage or not attending the ceremony out of protest, but certainly warrants a heart to heart talk with them - especially if you are asked to be a member of the wedding party. That opens the door to your obligation to voice your concerns.

You can voice them, in a charitable manner, and finish your list of concerns with a “I will keep you in my prayers that you will come to understand marriage in this light and that you will be blessed on your journey” type of thing…so that they know you are speaking to them out of love and concern for their happiness and future.

 

[puzzleannie]

There is reason to think that they intend to wait to have children, which isn’t a big problem by itself. However, I suspect they would probably use contraception to achieve that, which obviously is a big problem.

quite frankly, it is none of our business, it is between each individual and their priest in confession if they are in a state of sin, and it is not the job of the Christian to speculate upon the sins of others. We all have quite enough to do keeping track of our own spiritual health. They have gone to the priest and are following the path prescribed by the Church to prepare for marriage, so that is his concern, not ours. When we look at others we are obliged always in Christian charity to put the most positive construction we can on their actions. Perhaps it is quite likely this couple like many others will have one or more circumstances that render their marriage invalid, but those things are always among the most secret, confidential matters the Church weighs and judges.

 

[InTheWilderness]

I appreciate the replies thus far. I guess I will try to find a time to talk to them. Perhaps to my friend first, and then if he is open to it, to them both.

I know they are going on a marriage prep retreat in January as part of the marriage prep requirements. Perhaps that will be a help to them. I think my friend wants to do what is right, he just doesn’t know what it is. He has some very real doubts about the faith, at the intellectual and spiritual level, and I think that is the source of much of the problem. Like so many today, (and I have certainly been guilty of this at times) I think when he has doubts and then the society says something, there is a tendency to trust the culture.

I am not trying to intrude in any way on a matter that is not my concern. Nor do I wish to make any sort of judgment about either of them. I suspect both are well meaning. Yet, well meaning people can do some unfortunate things when they lack understanding. I know that is the case for me at times.

I guess I wasn’t really looking for a judgment about the validity of the marriage, so much as wondering what I could and should do. While I am not obligated to ensure they do the right thing, I certainly wish someone had helped me find my way out of some of my own stupidity.

Perhaps I should speak to a priest about this. Yet another reason that I need to find a spiritual director.

To create a hypothetical scenario that may also provide me some insights (and this is purely hypothetical, at least as far as I know). Suppose someone is planning on being married in the Church and they indicate they don’t really believe in the sacramental nature of marriage, that they don’t really intend to fully live out their wedding vows as the Church teaches, and that basically they are just having the Church wedding to make other people happy. I must stress that this scenario is purely hypothetical.

I will admit to being a bit “legalistic” about my approach to many things. I probably would have made a fine pharisee or scribe if circumstances were different. That is part of why I am seeking the advice of this forum, and also praying about it, when I remember to. I can’t forget the verse about seeing to the log in our own eye instead of the splinter in someone else’s. Yet it seems we must try to help each other on the journey.

 

[lotusblossom]

I’d give them a copy of The Good News about Sex and Marriage by Christopher West as an engagement present and/or wedding present. If you haven’t read it, read it first, and then mention that you loved this book and thought, since they are entering into such a beautiful sacrament, that they might enjoy this too. It is eye-opening and probably not what they believe, but at least they’ll have it in front of them in print.

My husband and I give this book to every couple whose wedding we attend.

Also, as previous posters said, PRAY!!! and offer up sacrifices for them . Nothing more powerful!

 

[YinYangMom]

To create a hypothetical scenario that may also provide me some insights (and this is purely hypothetical, at least as far as I know). Suppose someone is planning on being married in the Church and they indicate they don’t really believe in the sacramental nature of marriage, that they don’t really intend to fully live out their wedding vows as the Church teaches, and that basically they are just having the Church wedding to make other people happy. I must stress that this scenario is purely hypothetical.

I will admit to being a bit “legalistic” about my approach to many things. I probably would have made a fine pharisee or scribe if circumstances were different. That is part of why I am seeking the advice of this forum, and also praying about it, when I remember to. I can’t forget the verse about seeing to the log in our own eye instead of the splinter in someone else’s. Yet it seems we must try to help each other on the journey.

In your hypothetical much depends upon the nature of the relationship you have with the person making such a profession. As a fellow Catholic certainly you can always comment about the sacramental nature of marriage if the topic of conversation comes up…those are evangelical moments brought to us for a purpose.

If you are a good friend and confidante of the person then you can be more forthcoming in your evangelization, including directing the person to see a priest, to listen to particular CDs, read certain books, attend certain workshops and such…you can even offer to listen/read/attend these things with the person in order to answer any questions which might arise.

If you are a marriage prep facilitator for your parish then you evangelize to the couple and tell the priest your concerns then allow him to follow up on the matter.

But as Puzzleannie noted, how/why do you have time to note what other peoples’ shortcomings are? I am one of those marriage facilitators and trust me, even with that, I barely have time to focus on their issues outside our sessions because I’m working on my own and those of my children.

Perhaps you are feeling called to help reinforce marriage in society (I was)…speak to your priest about volunteering to help in the marriage prep process for your parish. They’ll send you to get training and it gives you an opportunity to speak face to face with couples seeking to marry. Your job is to listen and let them talk to each other rather than to actually be their advisor…this, I found, has been most helpful in teaching me how to keep my mouth shut so that the couple could reach the proper conclusion on their own (through guided questions). The experience helped me understand how the Holy Spirit works through people in this regard. We’re not always meant to teach with words, but most often by our own lives.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

:clapping: :clapping:

quite frankly, it is none of our business, it is between each individual and their priest in confession if they are in a state of sin, and it is not the job of the Christian to speculate upon the sins of others.

 

[InTheWilderness]

Texas Roofer

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie
quite frankly, it is none of our business, it is between each individual and their priest in confession if they are in a state of sin, and it is not the job of the Christian to speculate upon the sins of others.

I find everything about this statement to be extraordinarily unnecessary. While I suspect it was well intended, it is not in fact any sort of wisdom at all. Obviously it is not the place of any of us to judge others. It might as well have been stated that it isn’t our place to damn others to hell.

At least where I live the most often cited passage of scripture is that which tells us to judge not, lest we be judged. It is principally cited by those who want Christians to be silent and no longer teach on morality.