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If you believe baptism does not wash away sin, then you are truly ignorant of the word of God.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

And how does one get baptized with the Holy Spirit? By turning to Jesus in faith “calling on the name of the Lord”.

Act 2:21
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
 
Sarx.

What is the meaning of the Greek word, sarx, and why is this important?
So you wanna go Greek? What is the meaning of Petros and Petra?

There’s obviously a difference in Mat 16:18.

Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (PETROS), and upon this rock (PETRA) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Cr 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock (PETRA) was Christ.

PETROS - a stone; pebble
PETRA - a large immovable rock
 
**The problem with you **and many other Protestants is that you think the Church is to remain EXACTLY the same as it looked in Scripture. NOTHING that grows can remain the same. It grows into maturity.
The Church is a living, growing entity – JUST as Judaism was. Just as mankind is – more importantly – JUST as JESUS was as he grew up.
Jesus didn’t come does to earth as a man preaching along the countryside. He was born and grew up – as we ALL do.
WHY is it that you can’t accept and realize that the Church must ALSO grow?
The following was copied from another post from someone else. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind me using it. In fact, he is Catholic. I don’t remember his user name though.

Being that so many people are hung up on thinking that the Catholic Church is God’s church, let’s define Church according to the time of Christ.
The word translated “church” in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means “the called out ones.” However, the English word “church” does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means “dedicated to the Lord.” This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome’s translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be “assembly” because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to “come together,” i.e. a gathering. “Body of Christ” Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17)
 
Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

And how does one get baptized with the Holy Spirit? By turning to Jesus in faith “calling on the name of the Lord”.

Act 2:21
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
Believers,

You wrote, and I quote: “If you believe water baptism washes away your sin then you are truly deceived.”

You specifically stated that baptism does not wash away sin, and you have been

PROVEN

to be in error according to the Word of God.

By the way, I was involved in the Charismatic Renewal for 15 years, so you might want to dial down your “superiority complex” a notch or two. I’ve been to Toronto twice and subscribed to Charisma and New Covenant. I know where Azusa Street is and why it’s important. I own more Vineyard CD’s than you do.

Care to discuss the Welsh Revival? Jessie Penn-Lewis? T. Austin Sparks? Watchman Nee?

You are familiar with these people, places and events, I presume? Perhaps you can tell us why the Duquesne Weekend was a milestone in Church history? Or why David du Plessis was invited to attend Vatican II? I am a personal friend of Rev. Peter Hocken, the past president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies. He often stays with my in-laws when he is in the US.

No, you’re not the only one here who has spoken in tongues or been slain in the Spirit…
 
So you wanna go Greek? What is the meaning of Petros and Petra?

There’s obviously a difference in Mat 16:18.

Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (PETROS), and upon this rock (PETRA) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Cr 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock (PETRA) was Christ.

PETROS - a stone; pebble
PETRA - a large immovable rock
🙂

Believers-

I know you’re trying hard…I appreciate that.

I don’t quite know how to tell you this…so, I’ll just tell you so you can go do some more homework…

Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. He actually said, “You are Kepha, and on this Kepha I will build what I must call my church.”

When the writer transliterated “Kepha” into Greek, he wrote “Petros” because a feminine noun (Petra) applied to a man would have been improper.

That Peter’s name in Aramaic was “Kepha” or “Cephas” can be seen from this passages where the Aramaic was retained:


  1. *]John 1:42
    And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter ).
    John 1:41-43 (in Context) John 1 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 1:12
    What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, "I follow Cephas "; still another, “I follow Christ.”
    1 Corinthians 1:11-13 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 3:22
    whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
    1 Corinthians 3:21-23 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 9:5
    Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas ?
    1 Corinthians 9:4-6 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)
    So, no…I don’t wanna “go Greek”…I want you to go study some more.

    And I do hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
They are born with the sin of Adam.
I agree with this assessment. If babies do not have sin and baptism washes away sins, why would they need baptism? In Jesus’ case, Scripture clearly tells us he was sinless. So, although he was baptized with the baptism of John, which was for repentance of sin, it was not to wash away his sins. But can that be said of babies?
 
🙂

Believers-

I know you’re trying hard…I appreciate that.

I don’t quite know how to tell you this…so, I’ll just tell you so you can go do some more homework…

Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. He actually said, “You are Kepha, and on this Kepha I will build what I must call my church.”

When the writer transliterated “Kepha” into Greek, he wrote “Petros” because a feminine noun (Petra) applied to a man would have been improper.

That Peter’s name in Aramaic was “Kepha” or “Cephas” can be seen from this passages where the Aramaic was retained:


  1. *]John 1:42
    And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter ).
    John 1:41-43 (in Context) John 1 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 1:12
    What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, "I follow Cephas "; still another, “I follow Christ.”
    1 Corinthians 1:11-13 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 3:22
    whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
    1 Corinthians 3:21-23 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)
    *]1 Corinthians 9:5
    Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas ?
    1 Corinthians 9:4-6 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)
    So, no…I don’t wanna “go Greek”…I want you to go study some more.

    And I do hope this helps. :tiphat:

  1. I don’t know how to tell you this but the Holy Spirit wrote the NT in Greek not Aramaic. If you think He made a mistake then you’ll have to take it up with Him.

    Mar 3:29
    But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
 
Believers,

You wrote, and I quote: “If you believe water baptism washes away your sin then you are truly deceived.”

You specifically stated that baptism does not wash away sin, and you have been

PROVEN

to be in error according to the Word of God.

By the way, I was involved in the Charismatic Renewal for 15 years, so you might want to dial down your “superiority complex” a notch or two. I’ve been to Toronto twice and subscribed to Charisma and New Covenant. I know where Azusa Street is and why it’s important. I own more Vineyard CD’s than you do.

Care to discuss the Welsh Revival? Jessie Penn-Lewis? T. Austin Sparks? Watchman Nee?

You are familiar with these people, places and events, I presume? Perhaps you can tell us why the Duquesne Weekend was a milestone in Church history? Or why David du Plessis was invited to attend Vatican II? I am a personal friend of Rev. Peter Hocken, the past president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies. He often stays with my in-laws when he is in the US.

No, you’re not the only one here who has spoken in tongues or been slain in the Spirit…
Let me say this again. Water baptism does not wash away sins… with emphasis on “water”. You MUST turn to Jesus in Faith and REPENT. You will be baptized with the Holy Ghost if you do. It’s the only baptism that saves… “not the putting away of filth of the flesh”. And, please take your arrogance down few notches.
 
I don’t know how to tell you this but the Holy Spirit wrote the NT in Greek not Aramaic. If you think He made a mistake then you’ll have to take it up with Him.
You are right the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Bible. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the word for rock in Aramaic is Kepha. The NT contains Aramaic linguistics but it was not written in Aramaic like you said.

Case in point, Eloi. Eloi. Lama sabachthani is My God, My God, why have you for saken me?

Jesus spoke Aramaic. You cannot deny that. Read Mark 15:33-34.
 
You are right the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Bible. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the word for rock in Aramaic is Kepha. The NT contains Aramaic linguistics but it was not written in Aramaic like you said.

Case in point, Eloi. Eloi. Lama sabachthani is My God, My God, why have you for saken me?

Jesus spoke Aramaic. You cannot deny that. Read Mark 15:33-34.
Yea… but the Holy Spirit makes no mistakes. The message is clear. The Holy Spirit made a distinction and I believe Him. I don’t believe your church. If you’d like to appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and explain why you did not believe the Holy Spirit when He used Petros and Petra… that’s your business. I can at the very least hold God to His Word when I appear before Him.
 
I don’t know how to tell you this but the Holy Spirit wrote the NT in Greek not Aramaic. If you think He made a mistake then you’ll have to take it up with Him.

Mar 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Was the book of Matthew originally written in Greek or Aramaic?

Don’t answer without conducting a Google search. 🙂

Additionally, you completely ignored - avoided really - addressing all the verses that specifically show that Simon’s name - given to him by Jesus Christ - was “Kepha”. If Jesus had called him “Petros”, then the name “Cephas” would never have appeared in the Greek text, now would it?

Time to swallow hard, Believers. :tiphat:
 
I don’t believe your church…I can at the very least hold God to His Word when I appear before Him.
I don’t think YOU are going to hold GOD to anything, my friend.

However, since you refuse to believe us because we are Catholic, I would like to present you with a dozen or so Protestant scholars.

PROTESTANT SCHOLARS ON PETER THE ROCK

“You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter)." (John 1:42)

“Jesus replied, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:17-19)

W.F. Albright (Protestant) and C.S. Mann
“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Albert Barnes (Nineteenth-Century Presbyterian)
“The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion” Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus (Nineteenth-Century Calvinistic Baptist)
“As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession” Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
“The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification” New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

(cont.)
 
J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
“By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself” “Matthew” in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R.T. France (Anglican)
“Jesus now sums up Peter’s significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter’s character (he did not prove to be ‘rock-like’ in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus’ church. The feminine word for ‘rock’, ‘petra’, is necessarily changed to the masculine ‘petros’ (stone) to give a man’s name, but the word-play
is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form ‘kepha’ would occur in both places). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Roman Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the ‘rock’ here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed. "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied…Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus’ new community . . . which will last forever.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

William Hendriksen (Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary)
The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.” (New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973], page 647JPK page 14]

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)
“The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy” (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)
“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)

Herman Ridderbos (Contemporary Dutch Reformed)
“It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock petra]’ indeed refer to Peter” Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

Believers, I really think you might want to read more and type less. :tiphat:
 
Yea… but the Holy Spirit makes no mistakes. The message is clear. The Holy Spirit made a distinction and I believe Him. I don’t believe your church. If you’d like to appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and explain why you did not believe the Holy Spirit when He used Petros and Petra… that’s your business. I can at the very least hold God to His Word when I appear before Him.
The writer who was inspired by the Holy Spirit did not want to give the Apostle Peter a girl’s name! Same reason that a boy today would be named Stephen and not Stephanie.
 
Yea… but the Holy Spirit makes no mistakes. The message is clear. The Holy Spirit made a distinction and I believe Him. I don’t believe your church. If you’d like to appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and explain why you did not believe the Holy Spirit when He used Petros and Petra… that’s your business. I can at the very least hold God to His Word when I appear before Him.
The Holy Spirit used Kepha and Kepha - a few times in Paul’s Epistles too.
 
Exactly - the Holy Spirit used Kepha and Kepha - a few times in Paul’s Epistles too.
Mornin’, Lily.

Now that the “night shift” is here, I guess I can turn in for the night.

Have fun!
 
So you wanna go Greek? What is the meaning of Petros and Petra?

There’s obviously a difference in Mat 16:18.

Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (PETROS), and upon this rock (PETRA) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Cr 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock (PETRA) was Christ.

PETROS - a stone; pebble
PETRA - a large immovable rock
😃 Boy are you trying really hard. I’m no expert on Greek/Hebrew either. But I do have a Strong’s Greek/Hebrew Concordance. It says something really interesting about those two words.

Petro - primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle - Peter, rock.

3037, btw, is lithoboleo which means - to pelt with stones, to stone to death This word seems to carry the idea of casting stones to kill (exception - Mk 12:4), not just frighten or hurt.

Now lets move on to something I found really interesting

Petra - same as 4074; a (mass of) rock as distinct from petros - rock a detached stone or boulder or stone that might be thrown or easily moved.

4074, btw, is petros. 😉

The French Bible uses the same word in both places.

If anyone is interested this is the Strong’s concordance that I have. I use it with this site. It was definitely worth buying.

Now let’s get back to our regularly scheduled program before the never ending thread gets ended by the moderators. 🙂
 
Was the book of Matthew originally written in Greek or Aramaic?

Don’t answer without conducting a Google search. 🙂

Additionally, you completely ignored - avoided really - addressing all the verses that specifically show that Simon’s name - given to him by Jesus Christ - was “Kepha”. If Jesus had called him “Petros”, then the name “Cephas” would never have appeared in the Greek text, now would it?

Time to swallow hard, Believers. :tiphat:
swallow hard? And that’s your Christian testimony.

It was written in Greek inspired by the Holy Spirit. I have no reason to believe otherwise. God’s Word, as it is written in the Greek, makes complete sense to me. It’s perfect, pure, and without contradiction. You see, I’m not in a religion telling me what to believe. You have no choice but to go to outside sources because for some strange reason the Word of God is contradicting itself. You have no choice but to twist and bend and try to find loopholes in the Word to match up with your beliefs. You are unable to take the Word of God… as it is written and preserved.
 
And Jesus spoke Greek to his bunch of Galilean hicks too, I suppose? :rolleyes:

So you seriously hate Catholics so much that you would rather believe that JESUS WAS WRONG when HE SAID Kepha? (and make no mistake, he didn’t say no stinkin’ Petros OR Petra to Simon bar Jona)
 
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