Question About Mary ??

[Allweather]

What about Mary? She was chosen by God to give birth to the Messiah instead of God creating Him like He did Adam. God chose Mary to be the “virgin” that was mentioned by His prophet. He didn’t mention having her put in such a spotlight as your denomination does today.

God also doesn’t mention anything about sola scriptura, but that doesn’t stop you from believing in it.

In fact, Jesus specifically established a CHURCH, rather than a Bible. He quotes extensively from the Torah, and emphasizes the continuity of his new covenant with the old, but the New Testament we know didn’t even BEGIN to be put into written from until decades after Jesus went back into Heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father.

Sola scriptura, even if there were such a thing, is like the tail wagging the dog.

 

[kujo313]

The Apostles were not “wrong.” They didn’t believe in sola scriptura, yet you do. So maybe you’re wrong?

No one here denies anything in the Bible. I believe in it, every word of it. But I cannot accept your personal, fallible interpretations of it. Your interpretations are largely off-base, because you’re cut off from the Church which wrote the Bible and clarifies its meanings for all Christians.

And, it is incorrect by a LONG SHOT to suggest that “everything else was declared insignificant” by the Church. Nonsense. The writings of the Fathers are critically significant, even though they do not constitute Scripture.

The disciples SPOKE and TAUGHT Scriptula! They wrote it down for us to read. Red letters tell us the actual words of Christ, Himself.
Just as it is written in the OT that Israel did evil in the eyes of God (and paid for it many times), the RCC is the same way. It’s not that the gates of Hell ain’t prevailing, it’s that God has left you alone in your sin:

Romans 1

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Your “creature” is from your carnal mind. You say “since Jesus IS God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then Mary is the Mother of God”. That’s thinking carnally and not spiritually. You WANT the warm, cozy feeling of a mother when Jesus calls God our Father, THEN you twist Scripture to say what it doesn’t even say.

Your own denomination’s interpretation of Scripture is fallible; not being guided by the Holy Spirit but by your own carnal “wants” and “needs”. You have your idols and God says to not have them.

 

[kujo313]

God also doesn’t mention anything about sola scriptura, but that doesn’t stop you from believing in it.

In fact, Jesus specifically established a CHURCH, rather than a Bible. He quotes extensively from the Torah, and emphasizes the continuity of his new covenant with the old, but the New Testament we know didn’t even BEGIN to be put into written from until decades after Jesus went back into Heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father.

Sola scriptura, even if there were such a thing, is like the tail wagging the dog.

Torah. Hey, wasn’t that IN WRITING? Mmmm.

Going outside Scripture is like taking an exit off of the freeway even though the freeway is going to take you to where you want to go (and need to be). After the off-ramp, you do your sight-seeing and you take THEIR direction to where you need to be instead of getting back on the freeway.

 

[LilyM]

Mary believed in Jesus as the Messiah. Up to then, she was part of the Abrahamic Covenant (“And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” Gen 15:6; Romans 4)

In John 2, Mary tells the servants (are you a servant?) to do what Jesus says.

Did Jesus say to recite Mary’s words 53 times? Did Jesus say to make statues and paintings of Mary and make pilgrimages to “holy” sites dedicated to her? Did Jesus say “Do what she says”? Did Jesus say that Mary would come to you or that He would?

You say that John at the cross represented all believers in taking Mary as their mother yet, the actions and writings of the apostles say otherwise. Only John did and that (James 1:27).

Either the apostles were wrong or the denomination who practice it are. I know that you’ll quote some famous dead people who lived in the 2nd century that was “probably” quoting one of Jesus’ disciples but you really can’t assume that unless you ask them personally.
One thing that cannot be denied is the Bible, itself. Only those books within the covers have been tried and true. Everything else was declared insignificant by your own people.

What about Mary? She was chosen by God to give birth to the Messiah instead of God creating Him like He did Adam. God chose Mary to be the “virgin” that was mentioned by His prophet. He didn’t mention having her put in such a spotlight as your denomination does today.

Neither did GOD mention anything about cars, computers, tv or telephones - does that mean they’re off limits?

I’m not going to quote anyone except Our Lord himself - ‘LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU’. Think about what that means for US - and how exactly He would have loved Mary in light of the commandment to honour His mother.

 

[kujo313]

If it bothers you to spotlight the Mother of God, don’t do it. But it is unwise to berate and accuse those that do. If you believe that such persons are “tares” then you are instructed to “let them grow” together with the wheat. It is the holy angels that will sort them out at on the day of judgment, so it is improper for you do do so now.

If I saw you drowning, I would not stand there and watch.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Was Mary crucified for you? Was you baptized in the name of Mary?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

The Gospel IS written! The four Gospels in YOUR Bible is the story of the Law and Prophets fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 2

2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Any thing other than that is a division in the Body.

 

[kujo313]

Neither did GOD mention anything about cars, computers, tv or telephones - does that mean they’re off limits?

I’m not going to quote anyone except Our Lord himself - ‘LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU’. Think about what that means for US - and how exactly He would have loved Mary in light of the commandment to honour His mother.

“Honor MY mother and father”??? Jesus told John to take Mary as his mother. After that, Paul, James and Peter didn’t mention it but only as “Mary, the mother of Jesus” (Acts 1:14)

 

[LilyM]

If I saw you drowning, I would not stand there and watch.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Was Mary crucified for you? Was you baptized in the name of Mary?

Funnily enough Paul wasn’t either - AND YET he interceded for people, he claimed to have saved people (secondarily though - remember ‘I became all things to all men that by all means I [Paul] might save some’) and rejoiced in the fact that God saved them (partly) through him [Paul]! He spoke of being victorious and receiving an imperishable crown in heaven.

In fact Christ himself promised the Apostles (probably including Paul) that they would JUDGE the twelve tribes of Israel!

Christ doesn’t whine like a schoolboy when all the attention and all the spotlight isn’t on him - unlike you! HE washed the feet of His apostles and called himself ‘last of all and servant of all’ and ‘meek and humble of heart’ and HE even in heaven is a LAMB!

 

[LilyM]

“Honor MY mother and father”??? Jesus told John to take Mary as his mother. After that, Paul, James and Peter didn’t mention it but only as “Mary, the mother of Jesus” (Acts 1:14)

Did they call her ‘the mother of John’ as well? Was she nonetheless not HIS mother at least? Your argument from silence is flawed here.

 

[JustinApologist]

Was Mary crucified for you? Was you baptized in the name of Mary?

Jesus crucified and we baptized In the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit. Catholics only ask Mary for pray for us which is no different from me asking you to pray for me.

The Gospel IS written! The four Gospels in YOUR Bible is the story of the Law and Prophets fulfilled.

The Four Gospels were canonized by the Catholic Church. There were 50plus other Gospels in the early Church Age.

Furthermore, division is founded only in the 33,000 different Protestant Denominations. It is not found in the Catholic Church because is has the Marks of the True Church of Christ.

1. The Church is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822):

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

1. The Church is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)

By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

1. The Church is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

1. The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claimed.

Source: catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

 

[JustinApologist]

Sorry for derailing the topic, but let’s get back on Mary.

Jesus knew the Law more than anyone, and I’m very sure that he has always honor and love his mother.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

The disciples SPOKE and TAUGHT Scriptula! They wrote it down for us to read. Red letters tell us the actual words of Christ, Himself.

The disciples wrote a lot of other things that are not in Scripture. We have technically 2nd and 3rd Corinthians, because the first letter Paul wrote to them did not make the canon.

Just as it is written in the OT that Israel did evil in the eyes of God (and paid for it many times), the RCC is the same way. It’s not that the gates of Hell ain’t prevailing, it’s that God has left you alone in your sin:

Romans 1

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Your “creature” is from your carnal mind. You say “since Jesus IS God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then Mary is the Mother of God”. That’s thinking carnally and not spiritually. You WANT the warm, cozy feeling of a mother when Jesus calls God our Father, THEN you twist Scripture to say what it doesn’t even say.

I daresay that it’s quite carnal to deny that Jesus is Divine. Calling Mary the Mother of God testifies to Christ’s Divinity and the fact that He was always 100% God and 100% man. It’s not elevating Mary to the status of deity. Nobody here says that they’re trusting in Mary for their salvation.

Why do you hate Mary so much?

Your own denomination’s interpretation of Scripture is fallible; not being guided by the Holy Spirit but by your own carnal “wants” and “needs”. You have your idols and God says to not have them.

First of all, the RCC is not a denomination. Denomination means division and that title is granted exclusively to those who decided their understanding of Scripture is THE ONLY correct one and started a new church. Seems to me you’ve made quite the idol of your intellect and your own denomination’s interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Allweather]

The disciples SPOKE and TAUGHT Scriptula! They wrote it down for us to read. Red letters tell us the actual words of Christ, Himself.

Uhh, yeah, that’s what I said. The Apostles spoke and taught. Jesus established a Church and gave the Apostles authority over it. In the New Testament, the writings of the Apostles are all over the place. But for the first few decades, these writings did not exist. It really wasn’t until it became obvious that the Apostles were not going to live to see the Parousia, that the Church determined to set the record down in writing, and thus came the New Testament. The point is, my confused brother fundamentalist, is that the Church came first. The Bible came later. First Church. Then Bible. That is a key concept, and if you’re careful, you’ll start to observe it and start to understand the Bible a lot better than you do now.

Just as it is written in the OT that Israel did evil in the eyes of God (and paid for it many times), the RCC is the same way. It’s not that the gates of Hell ain’t prevailing, it’s that God has left you alone in your sin:

I see. I’d have to have some evidence of this. I perceive God in every aspect of Catholic life. It was fundamentalist Protestantism that I perceived to have a lack of God’s approval and presence, and one big reason why I abandoned that life. In those days, I knew quite a few people who fancied themselves attack dogs for the Lord, and might’ve been thought of as Kujos, just like you. I was even like that myself to some degree. Unfortunately for them, they were way, way out of line, and so was I, and so are you.

I see you don’t like having your scripture interpretations questioned. You have a mighty elevated opinion of your own abilities to know what Scripture means, and to tell us what it means, dontcha? Tell us then, what gives your interpretations more authority than mine?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Mat 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Mat 10:36
And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.

Mat 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Isa. 9:6 calls Jesus the “Prince of Peace.” In Lk 2:14 the angels sang: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.” John 14:27 Jesus says: 'Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you." Does it seem logical to believe that Jesus really came to cause division? In Matt. 5:9 he had just said earlier: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.” Yet, we are supposed to believe that Jesus was not a peacemaker? I do not see these passages as stating that Jesus was actively trying to separate families. Rather, families become divided over Jesus. Jesus demands total commitment to him: He is number one. However, sometimes other members of our family may not agree and choose not to believe in him at all. Jesus doesn’t force us to believe in Him and He doesn’t force them not to believe. Because of the choices we make, we’re either for him or against him. It’s not that Jesus is doing everything in His power to divide familes. You cannot interpret this literally without looking at the rest of Scripture.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Just my opinion,
but I honestly think it’s time we ALL stopped responding to Kujo’s insulting posts. He has more than proven that he is a malicious blasphemer and a self-righteous slanderer who is here on these forums to insult and degrade rather than dialogue.

Christians are under no obligation to continue in such endless disputes with such malicious souls.

Those of you who continue to do so,
are casting your pearls before swine,
and Jesus said not to do that.

God bless you,
In Christ Jesus,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Mannyfit75]

Don’t feed the troll.

 

[JustinApologist]

Just my opinion,
but I honestly think it’s time we ALL stopped responding to Kujo’s insulting posts. He has more than proven that he is a malicious blasphemer and a self-righteous slanderer who is here on these forums to insult and degrade rather than dialogue.

Christians are under no obligation to continue in such endless disputes with such malicious souls.

Those of you who continue to do so,
are casting your pearls before swine,
and Jesus said not to do that.

God bless you,
In Christ Jesus,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

It is fruitless to explain our faith who just won’t listen, kujo is a good example.

 

[LJN21]

Just my opinion,
but I honestly think it’s time we ALL stopped responding to Kujo’s insulting posts. He has more than proven that he is a malicious blasphemer and a self-righteous slanderer who is here on these forums to insult and degrade rather than dialogue.

Christians are under no obligation to continue in such endless disputes with such malicious souls.

Those of you who continue to do so,
are casting your pearls before swine,
and Jesus said not to do that.

God bless you,
In Christ Jesus,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

Very nice way of saying “Don’t feed trolls”

 

[guanophore]

The disciples SPOKE and TAUGHT Scriptula! They wrote it down for us to read. Red letters tell us the actual words of Christ, Himself.

This might come as a shock to you, kujo, but when those passages were first written (originally called the "memoirs of the Apostles), there was no punctuation, no canon, and no red letters. the Catholic Church did all that for you.

Just as it is written in the OT that Israel did evil in the eyes of God (and paid for it many times), the RCC is the same way.  It's not that the gates of Hell ain't prevailing, it's that God has left you alone in your sin:

Romans 1

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

I guess I am lost here, kujo. What was the sin committed that you think God has left us alone in? Is it the veneration of Mary? I guess you are erroneously believing that people “worship” Mary?

Your “creature” is from your carnal mind. You say “since Jesus IS God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then Mary is the Mother of God”. That’s thinking carnally and not spiritually. You WANT the warm, cozy feeling of a mother when Jesus calls God our Father,

Ok, you are saying that Mary is a “creature”, yes, but you are saying that carnal minded CAtholics “made” her up?

I am really confused about how Mary being the mother of God is carnal and not spiritual. The whole doctrine of Mary was developed out of Christology. People were trying to say that Jesus was not fully God.

Of COURSE everyone wants the warm cozy feeling of a mother! That is how God made us! you want it too, and you admitted this previously. Having the Blessed mother is not a “replacement” for having God the Father. He gave us both, and we appreciate both. God’s character is both male and female.

THEN you twist Scripture to say what it doesn’t even say.

I must have missed something. Are you referring to the quotations of the words of the angel Gabriel and of Elizabeth about Christ?

Your own denomination’s interpretation of Scripture is fallible; not being guided by the Holy Spirit but by your own carnal “wants” and “needs”. You have your idols and God says to not have them.

This seems like a very judgemental statement, kujo. Who are you to say who is being guided by the HS, and who is not? I guess you don’t see the pure fruit of all those faithful little old ladies who come before the blessed sacrament every day to pray their rosary. They are the pan dulce, the sweetbreads of the earth. It is hurful to hear you slander them in this way. I do not think that it is pleasing to God’s ear either.

Torah. Hey, wasn’t that IN WRITING? Mmmm.

Going outside Scripture is like taking an exit off of the freeway even though the freeway is going to take you to where you want to go (and need to be). After the off-ramp, you do your sight-seeing and you take THEIR direction to where you need to be instead of getting back on the freeway.

No, the Torah was oral teaching, and not written down for thousands of years, and much of it has never been written.

You are right that it is risky to go outside scripture. That is why it is so important to have Apostolic Guidance. Not all the Apostolic teachings are in the scripture, and the scripture itself testifies to this. They are not meant to be separated from each other.

 

[guanophore]

{Guanophore}
If it bothers you to spotlight the Mother of God, don’t do it. But it is unwise to berate and accuse those that do. If you believe that such persons are “tares” then you are instructed to “let them grow” together with the wheat. It is the holy angels that will sort them out at on the day of judgment, so it is improper for you do do so now.

If I saw you drowning, I would not stand there and watch.

Ok, suppose we are up to our eyebrows in water. First of all, we are not in apparent distress, and we are not asking for your help. Secondly, we have told you that your attitude and remarks are painful, insulting, and irreverant. We are telling you that we are not drownding, and we want you to stop hitting us over the head with that lifeboard you are whacking. By all means, stand there and watch! If you did, you would see that devotion to Mary bears fruit in believers.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Was Mary crucified for you? Was you baptized in the name of Mary?

No, and no one here has ever said she was! It is only in your MIND that this idea circulates. And I can assure you, nothing you say here that contradicts the Apostolic teachings will ever bring us to the same mind.

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you denying the validity of baptism, because God did not send Paul to baptize?

The Gospel IS written! The four Gospels in YOUR Bible is the story of the Law and Prophets fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 2

2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Any thing other than that is a division in the Body.

It is not necessary for you to divide yourself from us, kujo, but if you are going to be insulting and uncharitable, pointing the finger of accusation, and expressing judgement and condemnation to us, then it might be better for you to do so. Shake off the dust of your feet against us, because we will not dishonor the Theotokos to accomodate you.

“Honor MY mother and father”??? Jesus told John to take Mary as his mother. After that, Paul, James and Peter didn’t mention it but only as “Mary, the mother of Jesus” (Acts 1:14)

Yes kujo. The fifth commandment most certainly still applies. You are called upon to honor your mother and father. Jesus came, not to abolish the commandments, but to fulfill them. How can you rail at us because you think we are violating the first commandment, when you are violating the fifth?!

If you have been adopted by the Father, and grafted into the Promise of God, then Jesus is your brother, and Mary is your adopted mother.

 

[guanophore]

I daresay that it’s quite carnal to deny that Jesus is Divine. Calling Mary the Mother of God testifies to Christ’s Divinity and the fact that He was always 100% God and 100% man. It’s not elevating Mary to the status of deity. Nobody here says that they’re trusting in Mary for their salvation.

Why do you hate Mary so much?

kujo disapproves of his earthly mother, he disrespects her faith practice and her witness (or better, lack thereof in her case). He has weighed her in the balance, and found her wanting. I think Mary is just getting some of the fallout. He is also angry with her for misleading him by raising him Catholic, because the truth of Christ was not revealed to him until he left the Church.