Question About Mary ??

[guanophore]

Would you happen to know when in Tradition this information was given?

Mark 4:10-11

10 And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God,”

And they passed it on:

42 And they devoted themselves to **the apostles’ teaching **and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Acts 2:41-42

You make good points, but once again just like my posting it is just you opinion or the way you read the information. There is no hard proof of this either way. No I do not need proof to have faith. In the Bible there are many things that God says that require us to have faith. He is almost silent in this matter so faith of a unknown is not require.

What is concerning here is your apparent refusal to accept the authority that God has appointed as keepers of His truth.

Luke 10:16

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

It is required that one accept the appointed of the Lord, as by doing so, we accept Him.

 

[jmcrae]

The church did nothing to make the Scriptures inspired-inerrant. God used the church to discover His canon. The church was God’s instrument for this.

Just as the Church is God’s instrument for teaching us about Mary, and through her, the truth about Christ’s relationship to the human race (since it is from Mary that Christ gets His humanity).

Both the Scriptures and the Marian doctrines come to us in exactly the same way - groups of Bishops get together and study the issue for years and years, they arrive at a conclusion, and the Pope promulgates it to the whole world in an infallible statement.

If you believe the Bishops and the Pope with regard to the Scriptures, then why not believe them on the subject of Mary?

But if this system is unreliable with regard to Mary, then what makes it reliable with regard to the Scriptures? Merely the fact that you happen to agree with them?

 

[guanophore]

All I can say to this is that the Pope did not call Gods word inspired by God did in his word.

Can you please explain this some more? I am not sure what you are saying here. Catholics believe that God revealed to His Church by the power of the Holy Spirit which books belonged in the canon, and which did not.

God is all powerful and he put in His book what was needed for people’s salvation and to say anything more is require to add to Gods word is to put man above God.

I agree with you that God did ensure that the basics of what are needed for salvation are included. Saying more does not put man above God, but allows God to work through man to reveal Himself. This incarnational principle was demonstrated by Christ. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

This still does not excuse the Churches stand a marriage and the fallout it causes.

I am not sure what you mean by “stand a marriage” but I think you are talking about the practice that those called to the priesthood are also called to celibacy, are you not? This does not cause “fallout”, unless it causes those who don’t belong in the priesthood to fallout before they are ordained! A vow of celibacy does not cause child abuse or adultery, or fornication. These things are the fallout of living in the flesh, something that can be done by anyone, priest or not. If a person is going to be unfaithful to his vow, he will do the same as a single man, married man, or celibate man.

 

[guanophore]

Quote:
B]Protoevangelium of James

Isn’t this from a source that the church rejected as being the truth?

“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

Not at all! There were, and still are many sources of truth. There are many first century writings with valid material in them. The book was not included in the canon because the entire contents did not rise to the same level as other canonical books. Truth can also be found in archeaology, and it non-Christian historical writers from the period.

The source was rejected but not the assumption of Mary or Dormition of Mary. It’s odd that only two ancient Christian traditions Catholic and Orthodox venerate Mary and Protestants do not…

Not odd when you consider that the whole point of the “protest” was to reject the magesterial authority. Once you throw out the Apostolic succession, then all kinds of ancient Christain traditions get thrown out. For example…“Take and eat, this is my Body”.

Triune is not used in the Bible and if you have a hang up on a word to explain an statement of Three persons in on then use don’t use the word. God clearly in **Scripture states that he is three distinct persons and at the same time one. **Triune is used to explain this concept.
It is much different then what we have with Mary.

Can you please show me where this is clearly stated?

Interesting history. However, what we must look at is --what was the attifude of marriage and children in this time period? That is what has bearing on this. Clearly the Jews considered children a gift of the Lord and to be childless to be a disgrace.

Can you please explain why Jesus made a disgrace of Himself?

 

[guanophore]

What if i were to say to you the Thomas ascended into heaven to. Since we don’t have his bones, that must mean he did ascend into heaven. Would you accept that?

I would if it was infallibly taught by the Church, based upon centuries of testimony and practice, dating back to the Apostles. Why is it so hard to accept this testimony? You believe other facts that have been presented by scholars and historians!

 

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
The source was rejected but not the assumption of Mary or Dormition of Mary.

I would think this would cause you some concern. Here is a document that the church rejects as being false but uses it to build a doctrine that Mary was assumed into heaven because this false “gospel” says she did. This in itself is enough to reject this claim of her assumption on this basis.

No, justasking. You misunderstand the criteria for canonical inclusion. Books were not left out because they were considered “false”, atlhough some of them were. There were many valid books, such as the Didache, that were read and used in liturgies all over Christendom that did not make it into the canon. Including some letters written by Paul that do not exist to day (as far as we know).

We do not “reject” what these other sources teach us, just because they were not included in the canon. You will find this if you study the early Christain Fathers.

Quote Mannyfit75
:
It’s odd that only two ancient Christian traditions Catholic and Orthodox venerate Mary and Protestants do not…

That’s due because protestants know it cannot be grounded in Scripture.

Yes, and because Protestants have rejected the Apostolic Succession, and the Sacred Traditions that are taught therein.

Have you ever studied Orthodoxy? Don’t you ever wonder why the Orthodox believe these same Apostolic teachings?

 

[zcharry]

So is is the Creed that most Christians espouse today, zcharry. Is it not valid because it was not written down sooner? So is the contents of your Bible (most of it anyway, what is left after the reformers took some books out). Is the canon of scripture less valid because it was not written sooner?

As a matter of fact, there are shrines at the place where it is believed that Mary lived with John in Ephesus. Since many Christians were being killed, and everyone wanted the Mother of Jesus protected, people probably kept pretty quiet about it so that she would not be killed too.

Volumes have been written about the Dormition.

As a matter of fact, the truth is told to us by God, through the established teaching authority of His Church, the successors of the Apostles.

No the creed is vaild because it is a confession of Bible beliefs stated in scripture.

I will give you this, after reading your responses to priest not marrying, you have become good at twisting the truth to fit you what you want the truth to be

God Bless.

 

[zcharry]

Protestant is an man-made religion founded in 1517 by a rebel monk name Martin Luther.

It cannot trace its history through the Apostles.

They lack Apostolic Succession.

I have more respect for the Orthodox Christians because they upheld Apostolic Succession and still venerate Mary like we Catholics do. The Protestant belief is the minority when it comes to honoring the Mother of God.

It is funny how a religion can be base completely on scripture can be called man made, Lutheran (WELS).

 

[jmcrae]

No the creed is valid because it is a confession of Bible beliefs stated in scripture.

Actually, (among other things, including various hymns and litanies) they used the Nicene Creed, which they had formulated in 325 AD (which was based on the Tradition) to help them decide which books to include in the Bible in 405 AD.

 

[jmcrae]

It is funny how a religion can be base completely on scripture can be called man made, Lutheran (WELS).

Well, after hacking out nearly a third of the Old Testament and then coming up with his own system of theology, what would you call it?

 

[Mannyfit75]

No the creed is vaild because it is a confession of Bible beliefs stated in scripture.

I will give you this, after reading your responses to priest not marrying, you have become good at twisting the truth to fit you what you want the truth to be

God Bless.

I don’t think she is twisting the truth. As a layman who is discerning the priesthood, I can perhaps speak for men who believe that God is calling them to the priesthood.

As a man discerning the priesthood, I decide to be celibate. I am not force upon this discipline. Since I belong to the Latin Rite Church, Catholic priest cannot be marry. chastity is a gift. St. Paul did not condemned it. He himself recommend it for men who wish to be chase for the sake of the kingdom.

In the Eastern Byzantine Rite, married men can become priests. However, if they become a widower, they cannot remarry. This tradition is very ancient.

There are married priest in the Catholic Church mainly in the Eastern Rite. Second, some married priest coming from Anglican tradition and Lutheran who convert to Catholicism have Papal approval to become priest.

The Catholic Church has never downgrade marriage. In the Catholic Church, marriage is Holy. It is Sacrament. In this Sacrament, the man and woman become one flesh. Most Catholic laymen and women are called to the vocation as married men and women.

While some are called to a single life. Others decide by their own free will to be priest and religious and take a vow of chastity. The vow of the religious is no different from married couple.

A nun is symbolically become the Bride of Jesus Christ, since she takes it upon herself to be committed to Jesus by servicing him. A priest or monk is consider the Groom of the Church. In this union, the two become One flesh in some way, symbolically speaking.

Second the priest sex scandal is a result of the lack of prayer of the entire people of the faithful. The sex scandal is only done by a few priests. They don’t amount to the majority of Catholic priest. Sex abuse is not only a Catholic issue, it is society issue. There was a Protestant minister who paid a homosexual hooker and admitted using drugs, there are teachers who have sex with their students.

How do we fix this? Through prayer. Changing the celibacy of the priesthood will not fix it. However, one must keep in mind that celibacy is a discipline which can change if the Pope decide to make it happen in the Latin Rite.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is funny how a religion can be base completely on scripture can be called man made, Lutheran (WELS).

It becomes man-made when they break from Rome and take away Apostolic Succession.

Protestantism is man-made. I can’t say the same for Orthodox Christians since they have 7 Sacraments, maintain Apostolic Succession, venerate Mary and the saints, pray for the dead, except that they do not recognized the Primacy of Peter / Pope.

 

[zcharry]

Can you please show me where this is clearly stated?

Himself?

Sorry it took me so long to resond: had to dig this one out of the files. It was not written to you but for a friend that was having trouble with the Triune God understanding. Hope this helps

First start with passages that emphasize that there is but one true God. Passages that make this point would include Deuteronomy 6:4 and Isaiah 45:22 (and many, many others!). It’s important that people understand that when we teach the Trinity we are not speaking about three separate Gods.

The place to go after that is to show them a basic passage such as Matthew 28:19 which mentions the three distinct persons within the one God. Notice in particular the part of that passage that shows the unity (the first point above) even in the midst of the distinction of the persons (this second point). Jesus speaks of baptizing in “the name” (NOT “the names”!)of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. In this subtle and yet significant way, that passage emphasizes both the unity of the one “Godhead” and at the same time the very real plurality of the persons. (Of course, how God can be truly one and yet truly three will forever go beyond our ability to comprehend! I wonder how much it may be troubling your friend that he/she is trying to figure out that which forever will go beyond our understanding!)

Perhaps it would also be good to be prepared with a passage such as Matthew 3:13-17 (the baptism of Jesus) which shows us that the three persons are clearly distinct persons as we see them all active at the same time at Jesus’ baptism. Sometimes false teachers in the church have distorted the doctrine of the Trinity by teaching that these three names (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are nothing but different “modes of activity” as one person plays three different parts at different times. That’s impossible as Matthew 3 (and other passages) shows.

Finally, consider the literally hundreds of passages that show the Son and the Holy Spirit to be fully God in every way (not 1/3 of God, but wholly God every bit as much as the God the Father). Among such passages we would include: Colossians 2:9 (notice “all [not one third] the fullness of the deity” lives in Christ!), Acts 5:3-4 (notice that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God!), Revelation 22:12-16 (here Jesus uses for himself clear terms of eternal and infinite deity!).

How else can we understand these passages (and so many, many others like them!)without ending up teaching multiple “Gods” unless we maintain the unity in diversity and diversity in unity that is the doctrine of the Trinity! Certainly, we will forever struggle to come up with adequate ways of expressing the awesome truth of what Scripture clearly paints before us about our awesome Triune God. Even though it is true that the word “Trinity” itself is not used per se in the Scriptures, the teaching is clearly able to be shown in many places in the Scriptures!

God’s blessings as you seek to witness to your friend the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity

 

[zcharry]

I don’t think she is twisting the truth. As a layman who is discerning the priesthood, I can perhaps speak for men who believe that God is calling them to the priesthood.

As a man discerning the priesthood, I decide to be celibate. I am not force upon this discipline. Since I belong to the Latin Rite Church, Catholic priest cannot be marry. chastity is a gift. St. Paul did not condemned it. He himself recommend it for men who wish to be chase for the sake of the kingdom.

In the Eastern Byzantine Rite, married men can become priests. However, if they become a widower, they cannot remarry. This tradition is very ancient.

There are married priest in the Catholic Church mainly in the Eastern Rite. Second, some married priest coming from Anglican tradition and Lutheran who convert to Catholicism have Papal approval to become priest.

The Catholic Church has never downgrade marriage. In the Catholic Church, marriage is Holy. It is Sacrament. In this Sacrament, the man and woman become one flesh. Most Catholic laymen and women are called to the vocation as married men and women.

While some are called to a single life. Others decide by their own free will to be priest and religious and take a vow of chastity. The vow of the religious is no different from married couple.

A nun is symbolically become the Bride of Jesus Christ, since she takes it upon herself to be committed to Jesus by servicing him. A priest or monk is consider the Groom of the Church. In this union, the two become One flesh in some way, symbolically speaking.

Second the priest sex scandal is a result of the lack of prayer of the entire people of the faithful. The sex scandal is only done by a few priests. They don’t amount to the majority of Catholic priest. Sex abuse is not only a Catholic issue, it is society issue. There was a Protestant minister who paid a homosexual hooker and admitted using drugs, there are teachers who have sex with their students.

How do we fix this? Through prayer. Changing the celibacy of the priesthood will not fix it. However, one must keep in mind that celibacy is a discipline which can change if the Pope decide to make it happen in the Latin Rite.

First it is a restriction placed by man not God

Second. I think there our vaild points not to be married as it would free up a heck of a lot of time. You should see my honey do list I have building up as I write this e-mail. I think, back by scripture, it should be left up to the person to chose.
My view only.

Third
I want to say up front that I do not blame the Church for the failures of Priest. They have failed not the Church, but the Chruch has known this problem has existed since Priest were barred from marriage. It is debatable whether the Church has done all that they could do to prevent it

 

[zcharry]

Well, after hacking out nearly a third of the Old Testament and then coming up with his own system of theology, what would you call it?

Do not know were you got that idea. But you are not talking about my faith and beliefs

 

[zcharry]

Actually, (among other things, including various hymns and litanies) they used the Nicene Creed, which they had formulated in 325 AD (which was based on the Tradition) to help them decide which books to include in the Bible in 405 AD.

Show me one thing in the Nicene Creed that is not in scripture or taught in scripture

 

[Mannyfit75]

First it is a restriction placed by man not God

Second. I think there our vaild points not to be married as it would free up a heck of a lot of time. You should see my honey do list I have building up as I write this e-mail. I think, back by scripture, it should be left up to the person to chose.
My view only.

Third
I want to say up front that I do not blame the Church for the failures of Priest. They have failed not the Church, but the Chruch has known this problem has existed since Priest were barred from marriage. It is debatable whether the Church has done all that they could do to prevent it

It is not a restriction. I’m not force against my will, nor other seminarians and priests who been doing the service for God to feed his flock.

I even stated Paul recommended it. Jesus had no issue against celibacy.

Second, do you assumed that this problem existed prior to? This issue is much BIGGER. It’s a SOCIETY ISSUE sex scandal is a society issue. Not just Catholics. You might as well tell that to the Protestant Minister who have sex with a male hooker.

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus’ kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church’s celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church’s practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God’s covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-IV
Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.

 

[Allweather]

I want to say up front that I do not blame the Church for the failures of Priest. They have failed not the Church, but the Chruch has known this problem has existed since Priest were barred from marriage. It is debatable whether the Church has done all that they could do to prevent it

This has nothing to do with marriage. There are lots of married pedophiles. Pedophilia is a specific type of sickness, not something that happens to people who get horny from not having enough sex.

As one who is nearing the end of his age, I can attest to the FACT that some of the crazy-horniest men in the world are married.

Frankly I am not opposed to allowing a married category of priest. It isn’t my decision, mind you, but I don’t see anything at all wrong with it. If the Holy Father were to allow ordination for older married men whose children were already grown and gone, I think that’d be a great way to get more pastoral help in the parishes where the priests are horribly overworked.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Show me one thing in the Nicene Creed that is not in scripture or taught in scripture

He descended into the dead.

In some translation, he descended into hell.

This is actually implied in the Bible where Peter said, that Jesus preached to the dead during his 3 days in Sheol, Hades. This isn’t the Hell where the fallen are, but this Sheol is the abode of the dead. The patriarchs and heroes of the OT, who waited for the coming Messiah. Jesus went there preached, told them to return to their bodies. When this happened, we see the dead resurrected saints preaching the good news in Jerusalem.
Gospel of Matthew 27:52-53:

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

A few days later they return to their tombs and their spirits went to heaven. Jesus Christ on the third day rose from the dead.