Question About Mary ??

[partridge]

I would like to hear how one can say Mary had perpetual virginity based on scripture ……

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

This obviously is a response from Mary to the angel Gabriel after hearing that she would give birth knowing that she had not been sexually active with Joseph or any other man. Of the four definitions of the original Greek word for “know”, all have the idea of knowledge except one that has the idea of a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse.

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Once again the same root word “know” with the same implication for the definition. The implication of the sentence is that he did not have intercourse with her “till she had brought forth her firstborn son”.

Please give me your opinions !!

Thanks, Partridge

 

[LilyM]

Not in Biblical language. In the old Testament alone there are numerous passages such as ‘Michal (David’s wife) had no children until the day she died’ (she’d hardly have children AFTER she died) and ‘sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet’ (David is hardly going to be asked to move AFTER this happens, is he?).

Clearly when the Bible says ‘until’ it can mean ‘until and after’.

As for Mary - look closer at her words to Gabriel. A woman, newly betrothed, expecting in the normal course of events to have sex and children in the very near future, is told she’ll have a child - and she says ‘HOW can this be, I am a virgin’??? If she’s planning a normal marriage she KNOWS how it can be - her husband will sleep with her and father the child! The answer only makes sense if she’s planning on remaining a virgin.

 

[partridge]

As for Mary - look closer at her words to Gabriel. A woman, newly betrothed, expecting in the normal course of events to have sex and children in the very near future, is told she’ll have a child - and she says ‘HOW can this be, I am a virgin’??? If she’s planning a normal marriage she KNOWS how it can be - her husband will sleep with her and father the child! The answer only makes sense if she’s planning on remaining a virgin.

I understand that Mary was a virgin WHEN she bore Jesus, that is clear. My question is pertaining to after Christ was born. As you said " until and AFTER".

thanks

 

[partridge]

As for Mary - look closer at her words to Gabriel. A woman, newly betrothed, expecting in the normal course of events to have sex and children in the very near future, is told she’ll have a child - and she says ‘HOW can this be, I am a virgin’??? If she’s planning a normal marriage she KNOWS how it can be - her husband will sleep with her and father the child! The answer only makes sense if she’s planning on remaining a virgin.

I guess i missed your point …sorry. In Jewish society if she had not been a virgin it would have been a discrace to her and her family. By saying i am a virgin and assuming she had meant she planned a life of virginity is taking huge step into “what if”.

thanks

 

[exiled]

I think the point is that if Mary’s was planning a normal marriage she would not have said, “how can this be” because she would have assumed that the anticipated intercourse would be what brought forth the son.
The angel did not say, “you are pregnant”, he said, “you shall conceieve” which sounds like future tense to me, but I’m no Hebrew scholar. If the former had been said by Gabriel, then her question makes sense to our ears.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would like to hear how one can say Mary had …virginity based on scripture ……
Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Hi
This has been explained by Mirza Tahir Ahmad in the light of present day knowledge:
So how was Christ born? We understand that research on the subject of single mother birth without the participation of a male is being carried out in many advanced countries of the world. But so far human knowledge is only at a stage where scientific research has not yet advanced to such a level where positive irrefutable evidence of virgin births in human beings can be produced. However, all sorts of possibilities remain open.
At lower orders of life two phenomena are scientifically well established: Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism. As such, the miraculous birth of Jesus, to Mary, can be understood to belong to some similar natural **but very rare phenomenon, **the peripheries of which are not yet fully fathomed by man.
Here follow brief descriptions of the phenomena of Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism.
Parthenogenesis
This is the asexual development of a female ovum into an individual, without the aid of a male agent. It is observed among many lower forms of life such as aphids and also fish. There is also evidence that parthenogenesis can be a successful strategy among lizards living under low and unpredictable rainfall conditions. In laboratory conditions, mice and rabbit embryos have been developed parthenogenetically to a stage equivalent to halfway through pregnancy, but have then been aborted. In recent study, human embryos could be activated occasionally by parthenogenesis using calcium ionophore as a catalyst. Such research raises the prospect that some early human pregnancy losses may have involved the parthenogenetic activation of the embryo.
Hermaphroditism
This term applies when organs of both sexes are present within a single female and the chromosomes show both male and female characters aligned side by side. Laboratory tests have revealed cases such as that of a hermaphrodite rabbit which, at one stage, served several females and sired more than 250 young of both sexes, while at another stage, became pregnant in isolation and gave birth to seven healthy young of both sexes. When autopsied, it showed two functional ovaries and two infertile testes while in a pregnant condition. Recent studies suggest that such a phenomenon is possible, rarely, among humans also.
Unquote
May be it explains the phenomenon well.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[partridge]

I think the point is that if Mary’s was planning a normal marriage she would not have said, “how can this be” because she would have assumed that the anticipated intercourse would be what brought forth the son.
QUOTE]

i think the point is “i have not had sexual relation how can i be pregnant”. she was betrothed to be married before she bacame pregnant. why would she stay a virgin and deprive her husband of being a father

 

[Pixie_Dust]

i think the point is “i have not had sexual relation how can i be pregnant”. she was betrothed to be married before she bacame pregnant. why would she stay a virgin and deprive her husband of being a father

I believe there is a tradition that says Joseph was a widower and had children with his first wife. He wasn’t deprived of anything.

Check out this link.

 

[LilyM]

exiled;2287523:

I think the point is that if Mary’s was planning a normal marriage she would not have said, “how can this be” because she would have assumed that the anticipated intercourse would be what brought forth the son.
QUOTE]

i think the point is “i have not had sexual relation how can i be pregnant”. she was betrothed to be married before she bacame pregnant. why would she stay a virgin and deprive her husband of being a father

There are apocryphal writings such as the *Protevangelion *of James, stating that Mary was a Temple virgin (and these certainly did exist at the time!) As such she would have been vowed to lifelong virginity.

It wasn’t unheard of for such women, if they didn’t actually live in the Temple, to be put under the care of a male ‘protector’. Usually an older widower who already had children, who thus wouldn’t be deprived of fatherhood.

They would marry to make the arrangement binding and not cause scandal by living together, but he would respect her vow of virginity.

Remember that the people of Nazareth, even if they talk of Jesus’ ‘brothers’ in the sense of blood siblings, thought he was the son of Joseph, so any children of Joseph by a previous marriage would be thought to be Jesus’ brothers even if they weren’t in reality.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

If “till” (EOS in Greek) means that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after the Birth of Jesus, then the same Greek word–EOS–in Matthew 28:20 (same Gospel, mind you!) means that as of the end of the world, Jesus will no longer be with us.

Furthermore, “firstborn son” has a technical meaning in Judaism. It does not mean the woman ever had other children. It means that her FIRST pregnancy resulted in the LIVE birth of a MALE child.

If a woman’s first pregnancy is terminated by miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth, and a second pregnancy ends in the delivery of a live son, this is NOT considered a “firstborn son.”

If a woman has one or more daughters and later has a son, this is NOT a “firstborn son,” either.

Only firstborn sons in this technical sense are subject to the law of “Redemption of the firstborn son,” which is still practiced in Judaism. In the USA, the father gives five silver dollars (since the destruction of the Temple, the sacrifice has been commuted to five silver shekels) to a cohen (descendant of Aaron), who says the appropriate prayers and donates the $5 to charity.

 

[Sabda]

I guess i missed your point …sorry. In Jewish society if she had not been a virgin it would have been a discrace to her and her family. By saying i am a virgin and assuming she had meant she planned a life of virginity is taking huge step into “what if”.

thanks

No, that’s not true. If it was then please explain Numbers 30 to me! That whole chapter is quite clear on this subject. Keep in mind that Mary and Joseph were still under the Old Convenant at the time.

 

[kmcgonigle]

Maybe my way of thinking is a bit carnal, but can you imagine Joseph, after being visited by an angel, being told that Mary is pregnant with the Messiah, told not to put her away, and then he wants to have carnal sex with the Mother of the Messiah after he witnesses this incredible birth? Then another angel tells them to flee to Egypt, and they avoid the slaughter of Innocents? I’m sorry, but married or not, I ain’t touching her in that way. She is truly someone special.

Just my dos pesos,
Kevin

 

[kujo313]

Salvation. Through Christ, we are “justified” or “just-if-I’d never sinned”.

What does it matter, therefore, if Mary remained a virgin or not? Wether Jesus was an “only child” or if he was one of 10 kids, He was STILL the first-born, the child parents dedicated to God.

It has no effect to our Salvation if Mary remained a virgin or not.
What would probably matter is if Mary was in submission to her husband.

 

[LJN21]

I guess i missed your point …sorry. In Jewish society if she had not been a virgin it would have been a discrace to her and her family. By saying i am a virgin and assuming she had meant she planned a life of virginity is taking huge step into “what if”.

thanks

I believe once they were betrothed there would not be a disgrace if she got pregnant before the actual Marriage.

 

[LJN21]

There are apocryphal writings such as the *Protevangelion *of James, stating that Mary was a Temple virgin (and these certainly did exist at the time!) As such she would have been vowed to lifelong virginity.

It wasn’t unheard of for such women, if they didn’t actually live in the Temple, to be put under the care of a male ‘protector’. Usually an older widower who already had children, who thus wouldn’t be deprived of fatherhood.

They would marry to make the arrangement binding and not cause scandal by living together, but he would respect her vow of virginity.

Remember that the people of Nazareth, even if they talk of Jesus’ ‘brothers’ in the sense of blood siblings, thought he was the son of Joseph, so any children of Joseph by a previous marriage would be thought to be Jesus’ brothers even if they weren’t in reality.

Okay I’m not arguing that one source here is better than another. I’m just pointing out another way I heard this happened

In Bl Mary of Agreda’s The Mystical City of God St. Joseph is a young man who has promised also to remain a virgin. In that too I believe Mary was a consecrated temple virgin.

I would have to look it up but I think there might be some biblical backing for the temple virgin part.

 

[believers]

I would like to hear how one can say Mary had perpetual virginity based on scripture ……

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

This obviously is a response from Mary to the angel Gabriel after hearing that she would give birth knowing that she had not been sexually active with Joseph or any other man. Of the four definitions of the original Greek word for “know”, all have the idea of knowledge except one that has the idea of a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse.

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Once again the same root word “know” with the same implication for the definition. The implication of the sentence is that he did not have intercourse with her “till she had brought forth her firstborn son”.

Please give me your opinions !!

Thanks, Partridge

“knew her not till” implies Joseph knew her after.

Gen 4:1
And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Also, Jesus was the “firstborn son” of Mary. That implies “secondborn son” or “secondborn daughter”.

 

[LJN21]

Found this on the subject.

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

Apparently Martian Luther, John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli all believed Mary was a perpetual virgin as well.

 

[LJN21]

“knew her not till” implies Joseph knew her after.

Gen 4:1
And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

This has already been explain until means in many places in the Bible until and after.

Also, Jesus was the “firstborn son” of Mary. That implies “secondborn son” or “secondborn daughter”.

Again already explain. Its a technical term for the first male living born Child. There doesn’t have to be a second anything for there to be a first.

 

[LJN21]

Salvation. Through Christ, we are “justified” or “just-if-I’d never sinned”.

What does it matter, therefore, if Mary remained a virgin or not? Wether Jesus was an “only child” or if he was one of 10 kids, He was STILL the first-born, the child parents dedicated to God.

It has no effect to our Salvation if Mary remained a virgin or not.
What would probably matter is if Mary was in submission to her husband.

Well for Catholics it’s Dogma

 

[kujo313]

Well for Catholics it’s Dogma

I’ll take it as this defination of “dogma”:

a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

Your denomination’s belief is your denomination’s belief. Either way, it doesn’t effect our Salvation wether she remained a virgin or not. What Mary’s virginity said that another prophecy had been fulfilled.