Question About Mary ??

[elvisman]

“knew her not till” implies Joseph knew her after. .

WRONG. That is a perversion and a misinterpretation of the text.
Acts 2:34-35 states:
**"For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool.”’ **
Does this mean that AFTER God makes his enemies his footstool, he will no longer have him sit at his right hand? NONSENSE.
Just as the use of the word “till” or “until” doesn’t mean that Joseph had relations with Mary AFTER Jesus was born.
**Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant - only she was a better, more perfect Ark because she actually carried GOD within her. **
The original Ark carried stone tablets, manna, Moses’s staff, etc. - TOOLS of God - yet it had to be made pure and was not to be handled by penalty of DEATH.
ALL of the Church Fathers and the MAJORITY of the Reformers agreed that she remained a virgin ALL of her life.
Gee - I think I’ll take THEIR word over YOURS . . .

 

[believers]

What guilt did Christ have?

You would think “God” referred to Jesus not the one with guilt.

 

[believers]

Aren’t you guys supposed to have all this stuff memorized? Surely you already know these famous Old Testament stories - don’t you?

Notice how it never says, “Wait and see if the mother gets pregnant again.” As soon as the man or animal opens the womb, it is to be given to the Lord.

Since we can’t sacrifice human children, of course.

You’re not done supporting your claims.

 

[Sixtus]

believers posted:

Would you mind quoting the scripture verses to support your answers? In other words, prove what you say with scripture, otherwise it’s a non-answer.

Eherm! Catholics do not have to quote, only your sects have to quote. The bible is OUR book, so we do not have to quote. it is only those for whom the book is not theres, they have to quote.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You’re not done supporting your claims.

Did you read this?

 

[partridge]

I’ve noticed that no one seems interested in responding to Numbers 30.

ok … i will bite.

where in scripture did it say that mary took this vow that cast her into a life of virginity.

and i would also like to know which of the “church fathers” (as you all call them) wrote about this subject and the dates when written. appearently James is one of them … is this James the brother of Jesus or another ??

for an earlier question … no i would believe a story that my grandfather told me if it happened when he was young because as you know stories grow and change with every telling.

 

[Mommyof02green]

ok … i will bite.

where in scripture did it say that mary took this vow that cast her into a life of virginity.

and i would also like to know which of the “church fathers” (as you all call them) wrote about this subject and the dates when written. appearently James is one of them … is this James the brother of Jesus or another ??

for an earlier question … no i would believe a story that my grandfather told me if it happened when he was young because as you know stories grow and change with every telling.

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

 

[Mommyof02green]

You would think “God” referred to Jesus not the one with guilt.

 

[guanophore]

You’re not done supporting your claims.

Actually, believers, since this is what the Church founded by Jesus has been teaching for 2000 years, it is really you that needs to somehow “prove” otherwise. You cannot, because this is what it passed on to us from the Apostles.

 

[LilyM]

You would think “God” referred to Jesus not the one with guilt.

Then why does the one who is a stranger to his mother’s children have to be Jesus? Could just as easily be David (the one with the guilt and folly)
speaking again.

It’s not like it’s God himself saying ‘***I ***am a stranger to my mother’s children’

 

[kujo313]

What does affect salvation is rejection of the teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors, just as much as the Dogma itself. Those that do not accept this teaching have rejected Apostolic Authority, and as Jesus said “he who rejects you, rejects Me”.

But your religion has “anti-popes”. Their doctrine cannot be believed. Therefore, there IS division in your ranks.

Galatians 1:6-8

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Outside the Gospel of Christ is your denomination’s “tradition”:

theholyrosary.org/

“Say the Rosary every day…
Pray, pray a lot and offer sacrifices for sinners…
I’m Our Lady of the Rosary.
Only I will be able to help you.
…In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph.”

Our Lady at Fatima

**accursed **(adj) under a curse; doomed; ill-fated, damnable; detestable.

A virgin giving birth is part of the Gospel, but not going further into detail about the virgin.

 

[partridge]

But your religion has “anti-popes”. Their doctrine cannot be believed. Therefore, there IS division in your ranks.

Galatians 1:6-8

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Outside the Gospel of Christ is your denomination’s “tradition”:

theholyrosary.org/

“Say the Rosary every day…
Pray, pray a lot and offer sacrifices for sinners…
I’m Our Lady of the Rosary.
Only I will be able to help you.
…In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph.”

Our Lady at Fatima

**accursed **(adj) under a curse; doomed; ill-fated, damnable; detestable.

A virgin giving birth is part of the Gospel, but not going further into detail about the virgin.

EXACTLY … you win !!!

 

[LJN21]

But your religion has “anti-popes”. Their doctrine cannot be believed. Therefore, there IS division in your ranks.

Galatians 1:6-8

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Outside the Gospel of Christ is your denomination’s “tradition”:

theholyrosary.org/

“Say the Rosary every day…
Pray, pray a lot and offer sacrifices for sinners…
I’m Our Lady of the Rosary.
Only I will be able to help you.
…In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph.”

Our Lady at Fatima

**accursed **(adj) under a curse; doomed; ill-fated, damnable; detestable.

A virgin giving birth is part of the Gospel, but not going further into detail about the virgin.

Actually that’s private revelation and not something the really Church teaches publicly. Is optional as far as belief goes.

I’m assuming since you quoted the top of the page you didn’t even read what was said at Fatima. I’m also going to assume you’ve never really studied how Catholics view Mary out side a Jack Chick Tract. Contrary to what you may believe we do not worship Mary or anything of the sort.

This is completely off topic anyway and has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity. How about refuting the early Church teaching of the perpetual Virginity. How about refuting Martin Luther and Calvin who believed in the perpetual Virginity instead of hijacking the thread with things completely unrelated.

 

[believers]

Then why does the one who is a stranger to his mother’s children have to be Jesus? Could just as easily be David (the one with the guilt and folly)
speaking again.

It’s not like it’s God himself saying ‘***I ***am a stranger to my mother’s children’

Jesus quoted psalm 69:4&9. What makes you think 69:8 is not referring to Him either?

Did Jesus become a stranger unto his brethren as is says in Psalm 69:8? The answer is YES. In John 7:5 we see that is true.

Psa 69:8
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.

Jhn 7:5
For neither did his brethren believe in him.

From the NT verses below, it is clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Mat 1:24-25
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: (25) **And knew her not till **she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mat 12:46-47
While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mark 6:2-3
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? (3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jhn 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Act 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

1Cr 9:5
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Gal 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother."

 

[Allweather]

But your religion has “anti-popes”. Their doctrine cannot be believed. Therefore, there IS division in your ranks.

Kujo, I wonder if you’d mind naming the anti-popes and briefly describing the doctrines they taught that you think Catholics believe.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Dear believers,
if you are saying that because Jesus quoted some verses from Psalm 69, then the whole Psalm must apply to him,
you are mistaken.
Look at Psalm 69 verse 5, which reads:

O God, you know my folly;
the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.****

That is ALSO Psalm 69 !!! Do you ACTUALLY believe as a Christian that Jesus was guilty of FOLLY and committed WRONGS? Jesus, when he read from the scroll Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth, TOLD the people (among whom were his family members) that they were not going to believe in him because of their close familiarity with him, at which point they became enraged and tried to throw him off a cliff.

Those who are called Jesus’s “brethren” did not believe in him at first, but there is no indication from the gospels that they were “alienated” from him because of that fact. CLEARLY, they WERE on speaking terms with him.

The belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary goes back to apostolic times. Want proof?
Jesus’s brethren were there in the Upper Room with Mary and the Apostles praying for the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
By this time, just a few short weeks after his death, they were FULL believers. NOW, the entire early Church KNEW who these men were in relation to Mary. If they were children of HER WOMB, the entire early church would have believed THAT because the apostles spread that gospel to all the churches all throughout the Roman Empire. Thus, the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity, if FALSE, could NEVER have gotten off the ground in the early Church. When it was “introduced” there would have been Church-Wide INFIGHTING about the new and “false” teaching, fierce argumentation throughout the entire church between those who knew from the apostles that these brothers were children of Mary herself, and those who were trying to introduce the new idea. Look for yourself in Church history, the perpetual virginity was believed and only 3 people out of the entire Empire-wide early Christian church EVER suggested differently, and when they DID suggest that these were Mary’s own children, the ENTIRE church raised up and pounced on them!!
This belief was the belief of the entire early church during the days of the horrific persecutions. This church was VERY conservative doctrinally and these people defended their Faith TO THEIR OWN DEATHS and would not have countenanced the introduction of such a vain novelty into the Faith. And this was hundreds of years BEFORE Constantine even LEGALIZED the Church in 313 A.D.
God bless you,
Jaypeeto4
“Jesus Loves Me this I know…”

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Jesus quoted psalm 69:4&9. What makes you think 69:8 is not referring to Him either?

Did Jesus become a stranger unto his brethren as is says in Psalm 69:8? The answer is YES. In John 7:5 we see that is true.

Psa 69:8
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.

Jhn 7:5
For neither did his brethren believe in him.

From the NT verses below, it is clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Mat 1:24-25
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: (25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mat 12:46-47
While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mark 6:2-3
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? (3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jhn 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Act 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

1Cr 9:5
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Gal 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother."

If it’s so “clear” why did no one, including the “Reformers” believe that Mary ever had other children? How is it that YOU, 2000 years later, know something about Mary that those people who actually spent time with Mary - one that even took her into his own home after Jesus’ death on the cross - did not?

Did you read the article I’ve linked twice in this thread? Are you afraid to read evidence to the contrary of your position? Afraid that the RCC might actually be right about Mary?

 

[LilyM]

But your religion has “anti-popes”. Their doctrine cannot be believed. Therefore, there IS division in your ranks.

kujo - anti-Popes are just that. ANTI-Popes. They’re not legitimately Pope. There NEVER has been more than one legitimate Pope at a time, regardless of the existence of others calling themselves Pope. And faithful Catholics don’t believe the doctrines of any anti-Pope either.

 

[believers]

Dear believers,
if you are saying that because Jesus quoted some verses from Psalm 69, then the whole Psalm must apply to him,
you are mistaken.
Look at Psalm 69 verse 5, which reads:

O God, you know my folly;
the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.****

That is ALSO Psalm 69 !!! Do you ACTUALLY believe as a Christian that Jesus was guilty of FOLLY and committed WRONGS? Jesus, when he read from the scroll Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth, TOLD the people (among whom were his family members) that they were not going to believe in him because of their close familiarity with him, at which point they became enraged and tried to throw him off a cliff.

Those who are called Jesus’s “brethren” did not believe in him at first, but there is no indication from the gospels that they were “alienated” from him because of that fact. CLEARLY, they WERE on speaking terms with him.

The belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary goes back to apostolic times. Want proof?
Jesus’s brethren were there in the Upper Room with Mary and the Apostles praying for the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
By this time, just a few short weeks after his death, they were FULL believers. NOW, the entire early Church KNEW who these men were in relation to Mary. If they were children of HER WOMB, the entire early church would have believed THAT because the apostles spread that gospel to all the churches all throughout the Roman Empire. Thus, the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity, if FALSE, could NEVER have gotten off the ground in the early Church. When it was “introduced” there would have been Church-Wide INFIGHTING about the new and “false” teaching, fierce argumentation throughout the entire church between those who knew from the apostles that these brothers were children of Mary herself, and those who were trying to introduce the new idea. Look for yourself in Church history, the perpetual virginity was believed and only 3 people out of the entire Empire-wide early Christian church EVER suggested differently, and when they DID suggest that these were Mary’s own children, the ENTIRE church raised up and pounced on them!!
This belief was the belief of the entire early church during the days of the horrific persecutions. This church was VERY conservative doctrinally and these people defended their Faith TO THEIR OWN DEATHS and would not have countenanced the introduction of such a vain novelty into the Faith. And this was hundreds of years BEFORE Constantine even LEGALIZED the Church in 313 A.D.
God bless you,
Jaypeeto4
“Jesus Loves Me this I know…”

Psa 69:5
O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.

It’s clear to me… “O God” = “O Jesus” “thee” = “Jesus”

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

 

[believers]

If it’s so “clear” why did no one, including the “Reformers” believe that Mary ever had other children? How is it that YOU, 2000 years later, know something about Mary that those people who actually spent time with Mary - one that even took her into his own home after Jesus’ death on the cross - did not?

Did you read the article I’ve linked twice in this thread? Are you afraid to read evidence to the contrary of your position? Afraid that the RCC might actually be right about Mary?

We don’t know that for sure. None of us were there to confirm “church history”. It’s just man’s words on paper. Your church has given you her version of “church history”. And, you have no choice but to believe what your religion tells you because to believe otherwise is to believe the RCC is wrong.

As far as I’m concerned, I’m going to stick with the Word of God only. I don’t care what you guys say about “sola scriptura”. God’s Word is truth. God gave us His Word and the Holy Spirit in which to understand His Word when we turned to Him in faith.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea,** let God be true, but every man a liar**; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.