Question about matthew 18:17

[black_sun]

"And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican."

I understand that the people who heard this directly from our Lord probably interprets it differently and our interpretation of it today would also be different…

How exactly do they treat a heathen and publican?
Does refusing to talk with them suffice? Or should they also be treated harshly?

You see, to be very honest I have friends who I’ve been trying to bring back to the faith, I realize that I am not the best Catholic Christian who ever lived(and probably one of the worst)
But them continuing to rebel against the faith and supporting their heretical sects really pisses me off.

I know that I am not the best friend God has ever had, but God IS THE BEST friend I ever had and seeing my “friends” not worshipping God in the Eucharist is tantamount to them saying that either God and the Saints are liars or are seriously deluded…

I am really considering ending our “friendship” if after another round of me politely convincing them to go back, they would still refuse, hoping that this would at least make them think of what they had done leaving the faith just like that…

Oh and I still want to know what God meant when HE said “treat them like a heathen and publican”
Hope someone can help…

 

[djd83]

Well, did you tell the church first? ] just kidding…

The norm in those days was to not talk to, and possibly avoid all contact with, the heathen and publicans (tax collectors).

We have to remember, though, that such were the people that Jesus chose to dine with, because he came to ‘call the sinners to repentance, not the righteous.’

I believe the same goes for us. As long as these friends aren’t harassing your beliefs, don’t shut them out completely. This also is a good opportunity to “clean up your act” so to speak and try to live as good of a Christian life as possible. Maybe through this, you will ‘pour hot coals on their heads,’ and convince them to see what good the Church promotes. You never know what might change a person’s mind.

God bless!

 

[Philthy]

One of the fascinating things about the Gospels and Scripture in general, is that it has a specific context and meaning for those who were alive at the time it occured and that it continues to have meaning - analogous but similar - for all of us throughout time. As I read your dilemma in the light of my morning reflection today, it occured to me that perhaps “take it to the church” - for you, with respect to your friends - means something slightly different than it meant when the words were originally spoken. Perhaps you are to “take it to the church” through prayer, perhaps even to a patron saint (ie definitive member of “the church”) for the conversion of their hearts.
Also, do not be discouraged! God’s ways and our ways are very different. God will accomplish something great through your prayerful efforts on behalf of these folks, for we know that “love never fails”. Be sure that your intentions and prayers are truly loving and trust God to do the rest according to His Will and in His time. If you would like a particular recommendation for prayer, consider the Divine Mercy Chaplet which has as a closing prayer the prayer at the bottom of this page…

Blessings!

 

[bmullins]

I think it’s important to note that after Jesus tells them to treat them as a pagan or a tax collector, Peter and he have an interaction:

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Then look at how Jesus treated pagans or tax collectors.

 

[steve_b]

“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican.”

How exactly do they treat a heathen and publican?
Does refusing to talk with them suffice? Or should they also be treated harshly?

I am really considering ending our “friendship” if after another round of me politely convincing them to go back, they would still refuse, hoping that this would at least make them think of what they had done leaving the faith just like that…

Oh and I still want to know what God meant when HE said “treat them like a heathen and publican”

The passage you quote from, talks about confronting a person who has sinned against you or another and how you repair the fault through various steps. The message is forgive the one who asks for forgiveness. If they want nothing to do with asking forgiveness, because they aren’t sorry, even at the Church level, then adios…(paraphrased) .

Jesus then says to Peter keep forgiving no matter how many times it takes. Doesn’t that seem like a contradiction to what He just said? Jesus is making a distinction between a person who isn’t sorry for their sins, doesn’t ask for forgiveness because they aren’t sorry, and won’t change their ways even if the Church gets involved, vs the one who is sorry and desires and asks for forgiveness even though it’s the 100th time they’ve asked for forgiveness…maybe for the same fault.

I think the bottomline on this particular example you ask about is, breakoff dialogue if you can’t remain charitable. You can stay friends or not that’s up to you, but don’t get into a situation where you sin by losing your charity.

 

[PJM]

=black_sun;8774018]"And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican."

I understand that the people who heard this directly from our Lord probably interprets it differently and our interpretation of it today would also be different…

How exactly do they treat a heathen and publican?
Does refusing to talk with them suffice? Or should they also be treated harshly?

You see, to be very honest I have friends who I’ve been trying to bring back to the faith, I realize that I am not the best Catholic Christian who ever lived(and probably one of the worst)
But them continuing to rebel against the faith and supporting their heretical sects really pisses me off.

I know that I am not the best friend God has ever had, but God IS THE BEST friend I ever had and seeing my “friends” not worshipping God in the Eucharist is tantamount to them saying that either God and the Saints are liars or are seriously deluded…

I am really considering ending our “friendship” if after another round of me politely convincing them to go back, they would still refuse, hoping that this would at least make them think of what they had done leaving the faith just like that…

Oh and I still want to know what God meant when HE said “treat them like a heathen and publican”
Hope someone can help…

You have the RIGHT idea. The KEY message here is that “the Church” is today’s CC. And one id known by those we associate with; so PRAY about it.

And Pray for them too:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[DexUK]

I would suggest that in the case of friends and acquaintances who do not or deliberately will not share your faith, then you should continue to show them your faith in the form of steadfast witness to it, that they might come to belief as a result of your example of how to live an honest and fulfilling Christian (Catholic) life.

To cut them off entirely would seem to be uncharitable, even if you might recognise them as ‘heathen’ (or, perhaps, in the language of our day, confirmed secularists). It just means knowing them for who they are and continuing to present to them the right image so that they can make their minds up about faith for themselves based on reliable knowledge of what it’s meant to be.

If you’re happy in your faith, if it is fulfilling, if it is something by which you set great store and in which you have great comfort, then show that to the world and your recalcitrant friends. Don’t be downhearted or lose your resolve. As scripture rightly tells us, we can take pride in Our Lord and what he has done for us.

 

[angierabbit2012]

I’m a convert and I haven’t been a part of the Church too long but we had a saying in the protestant church that I used to attend:

"Never Forget…You might be the ONLY church your friends EVER see!!

I am the only Catholic in my ENTIRE family. None of them understand why I feel so passionately about my Church, especially the Eucharist!

I pray a LOT for them and I try to let them see me at my best…living everyday to the best of my ability as a representative of our Lord and His Church.

Don’t let them discourage you! Hold on to your Faith and hold on to our Lord!

He can see you through ANYTHING!

God bless you!

 

[DexUK]

I like that saying. I hope you don’t mind, but that’s going on my signature. I might even make a poster for my wall above my desk with those words on. Thank you for sharing them

 

[angierabbit2012]

I like that saying. I hope you don’t mind, but that’s going on my signature. I might even make a poster for my wall above my desk with those words on. Thank you for sharing them

Hey DexUK!

You are quite welcome!!

God bless You!

 

[black_sun]

Well, did you tell the church first? ] just kidding…

well, I have told some priests during confession, I hope that counts as “telling the church”

The norm in those days was to not talk to, and possibly avoid all contact with, the heathen and publicans (tax collectors).

We have to remember, though, that such were the people that Jesus chose to dine with, because he came to ‘call the sinners to repentance, not the righteous.’

Yes, this is true, but my problem is that I noticed HE was this way to those who were sorry, but was He this kind and gentle to the Jews who hated Him? He even told them straight to their faces: “You are of your father the devil”. Even Saint Paul tells us to avoid heretics after the third admonition, so I just figured if my real intention was to make them think, then maybe avoiding them might be crazy enough to work.

I believe the same goes for us. As long as these friends aren’t harassing your beliefs, don’t shut them out completely.

Well they are in a way harassing the church, since they believe their “gospel” is the real one and since we Filipinos are the only Catholic country in Asia they are targeting on converting Catholics more than anyone else. Obviously, the ignorant Catholic will immediately join them as I almost did long ago, very sad.

This also is a good opportunity to “clean up your act” so to speak and try to live as good of a Christian life as possible. Maybe through this, you will ‘pour hot coals on their heads,’ and convince them to see what good the Church promotes. You never know what might change a person’s mind.

God bless!

Thank you, indeed since I came back to the church I’ve been working so hard to be a good example(perhaps not the best but I’m working on it). But a big problem for their kind is the more you treat them with kindness the more they think it’s God blessing them for being holy, even though in reality they are falling deeper into heresy. That’s why I thought of doing this as plan B.

Looking forward for your next reply, thank you God bless you more

 

[black_sun]

One of the fascinating things about the Gospels and Scripture in general, is that it has a specific context and meaning for those who were alive at the time it occured and that it continues to have meaning - analogous but similar - for all of us throughout time. As I read your dilemma in the light of my morning reflection today, it occured to me that perhaps “take it to the church” - for you, with respect to your friends - means something slightly different than it meant when the words were originally spoken. Perhaps you are to “take it to the church” through prayer, perhaps even to a patron saint (ie definitive member of “the church”) for the conversion of their hearts.

VERY COOL INSIGHT! THANK YOU AND YEAH I HAVE DONE AND AM STILL DOING THAT

Also, do not be discouraged! God’s ways and our ways are very different. God will accomplish something great through your prayerful efforts on behalf of these folks, for we know that “love never fails”. Be sure that your intentions and prayers are truly loving and trust God to do the rest according to His Will and in His time. If you would like a particular recommendation for prayer, consider the Divine Mercy Chaplet which has as a closing prayer the prayer at the bottom of this page…

Blessings

Ah yes the chaplet, we pray it after the rosary, very beautiful and powerful, thanks

 

[black_sun]

The passage you quote from, talks about confronting a person who has sinned against you or another and how you repair the fault through various steps. The message is forgive the one who asks for forgiveness. If they want nothing to do with asking forgiveness, because they aren’t sorry, even at the Church level, then adios…(paraphrased) .

Jesus then says to Peter keep forgiving no matter how many times it takes. Doesn’t that seem like a contradiction to what He just said? Jesus is making a distinction between a person who isn’t sorry for their sins, doesn’t ask for forgiveness because they aren’t sorry, and won’t change their ways even if the Church gets involved, vs the one who is sorry and desires and asks for forgiveness even though it’s the 100th time they’ve asked for forgiveness…maybe for the same fault.

I think the bottomline on this particular example you ask about is, breakoff dialogue if you can’t remain charitable. You can stay friends or not that’s up to you, but don’t get into a situation where you sin by losing your charity.

This now leads me to the other problem, how exactly is forgiveness defined?
I admit that I have hatred in my heart because of them rejecting the faith but everytime I recall the horrors of hell, I surely DO NOT want them to get there, which is precisely why I want to use pain as my last resort in order to make them think. I want them to return to the fold because they are putting their souls and their “disciples” souls in jeopardy by rejecting the faith. If this is not forgiveness then I truly dont know what forgiveness is.

Now if me ending our friendship and avoiding them wont affect them at all, then hell, they weren’t really searching for God when they converted to a different religion.

 

[black_sun]

I’d like to thank you all for sharing your insights, I appreciate it greatly, let’s pray for each other, hope we could see each other in heaven some day

 

[ahs]

OP, this has been said a couple times, at least, and I’ll re-state it…profess your Faith by your actions (live your Faith) that you will be an example to your friends. And, PRAY!!! I have found that prayer can do so much more than any great effort we put forth.

When it comes to that specific verse, that is for when someone has sone something to you. When your brother/friend/whoever sins against you, go to him/her in private. If they do not listen, take 2 or 3 others with you. If they still do not listen, take the matter to the Church/God, and if they still do not listen, be done with them…until they say they are sorry/ask forgiveness…at which point you forgive and then decide if the relationship can be reconciled.

-ahs