Question about mortal sin?

[mmmcounts]

I’ve had some discussions about mortal sin in the past. I once characterized mortal sin as a semi-regular thing whereby Catholics believe they lose their salvation and regain it through confession to a priest. The response was that Catholics don’t commit mortal sin very frequently; after all, it’s only some of the really serious stuff like, say, murder or adultery. The average Catholic (according to this person) will commit mortal sin, at most, around three to five times in a lifetime. If that. Many will be in the zero to three range.

This brought to mind some of the things Jesus said in the Beatitudes, specifically looking in Matthew 5. Among other things, he said this:

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And, of course, this:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Does this put lust/masturbation on the level of mortal sin, along with anger toward a brother? Surely murder and adultery are mortal sins by Catholic definition, and if that’s the case, Jesus’ statements about being “subject to judgment” and “in danger of the fire of hell” must, at some level, be seen as equating anger with the sin of murder, and on the flip side, lust with adultery. Does this mean these things, equated with murder and adultery, are mortal sins along with them? Or do you somehow see the former being equated with the latter at one level, yet not included with them among mortal sins? If that’s the case, can you explain how that works?

If anger for your brother and lusting after a woman are mortal sins, just as murder and adultery are, would this cause you to significantly elevate your estimate for the number of mortal sins committed by the average Catholic throughout their life? What kind of range does that wind up falling in? I suppose it all depends on how you define “mortal sin” in light of these parts of the Beatitudes. If you want to look at it in context a little more, Jesus tells you other things like turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and “let you yes be yes and your no be no.” You pretty much take it at face value and go with what He says. Just throwing that out there.

I guess this is the main question when it’s all said and done: Does Matthew 5 wind up contributing to your view of what mortal sin is?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Typical sin has three components to consummate: knowledge, intent, commitment. Please notice action is not required. That I believe is your answer.

Now what is mortal sin verses venial sin - no one really knows. Some sins can be clearly be seen as violent crimes against the innocent = mortal, while refusing traffic laws or insignificant lies = venial. However since the actions of sin are a continual progression and intent and knowledge are internal no one can asses all sins. So we follow Christ’s instruction - repent your sins.

It would seem to be the same for non Catholics?

 

[Seatuck]

The response was that Catholics don’t commit mortal sin very frequently; after all, it’s only some of the really serious stuff like, say, murder or adultery. The average Catholic (according to this person) will commit mortal sin, at most, around three to five times in a lifetime. If that. Many will be in the zero to three range.

Your friend , although well meaning ( I am assuming) was incorrect.

 

[AdriannaJean]

I would be skeptical of saying that your average Catholic will only commit mortal sin 3-5 times in their life. Either that or I’m above average Think about it, sex out of marriage, divorce, remarriage, contraception…all of those things are mortal sins. 90% of married Catholics use some form of artificial contraception. And I doubt they only use it 3 to 5 times in their lives. The divorce rate for Catholics is the same as everyone else, 50%. And many Catholics remarry (outside of the Church). As much as we would love those numbers to be that low, there is no way that they could be.

 

[AndyF]

mmmcounts:

Newadvent.org index Sin has a good explaination.

AndyF

 

[Carlion]

divorce, remarriage, contraception…all of those things are mortal sins.

Divorce with remarriage is a mortal sin. Either one on their own are not mortal sins.

 

[Seatuck]

Divorce with remarriage is a mortal sin. Either one on their own are not mortal sins.

This is a common misconception. Divorce can be a mortal sin . It depends upon the situation.

**
**Divorce **
**2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.173 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.174 **
**Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death."175 **
**2383 The *separation ***of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.176
**If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. **
2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: **
**If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.177 **
2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society. 2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178

---

 

[Carlion]

This is a common misconception. Divorce can be a mortal sin . It depends upon the situation.

---

As a divorcee, what I was told by my priest and various representatives of the archdiocese is that re-marriage is what makes it sinful, because you end up committing adultery. As long as a divorcee lives a chaste life, because in the eyes of the Church they are married unless annulment is granted, then everything is A-Ok.

 

[mmmcounts]

As a divorcee, what I was told by my priest and various representatives of the archdiocese is that re-marriage is what makes it sinful, because you end up committing adultery. As long as a divorcee lives a chaste life, because in the eyes of the Church they are married unless annulment is granted, then everything is A-Ok.

This intrigues me. How’s that going for you?

Any chance of you guys getting back together, or is that a really dumb question given your circumstances? What’s it take to get an annulment? Will you pursue one? What are the odds you’ll wind up being chaste the rest of your life?

I’m taking it a bit off-topic. All of that is probably covered on a half-dozen other threads. I’m still pretty interested in your specific experience, though. Anyway, here’s my attempt to do something on-topic that’s more for everyone: What’s happening inside your head during that time between where you lose your salvation and then regain it with a valid confession? Thoughts, feelings, emotions…what’s going on? I’ve gotten the perspective of people who’ve…swum backstroke across the Tiber away from Rome, I suppose. I’m curious to see what the Roman citizens in good standing will say.

 

[Seatuck]

As a divorcee, what I was told by my priest and various representatives of the archdiocese is that re-marriage is what makes it sinful, because you end up committing adultery. As long as a divorcee lives a chaste life, because in the eyes of the Church they are married unless annulment is granted, then everything is A-Ok.

Then I guess you should read the excerpt from the catechism that I provided.

Especially

**Divorce **is a grave offense against the natural law.

*That is the language used for sin. It may be that in your situation it was understood that you did not sin but otherwise it may be that they were just trying to comfort you . I don’t know. Church teaching is pretty clear right there. Like I said it depends upon the situation. There can be an innocent party. *

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Sacramental marriages are convenient with god entered by two spouses, non sacramental marriages are improper attempts to answer god’s call except in the rare circumstance that proper marriage understanding is not available.

This is a common misconception. Divorce can be a mortal sin . It depends upon the situation.

The situations vary greatly

• Why has this man become violate, alcoholic, drug addicted, or disappeared, etc., etc.
• Why has this woman become violate, alcoholic, drug addicted, or disappeared, etc., etc.
  In some cases, certainly not all, one spouse is properly living the vocation of marriage and the other is destroying the family either willfully or through a disorder means as drug addiction. These cases place the proper spouse in the poor situation of assume all protection responsibilities for the children and themself. These condition can require the proper spouse to seek civil divorce for protection( mental, physical, emotional, etc)

As a divorcee, what I was told by my priest and various representatives of the archdiocese is that re-marriage is what makes it sinful, because you end up committing adultery. As long as a divorcee lives a chaste life, because in the eyes of the Church they are married unless annulment is granted, then everything is A-Ok.

I will not ask and please do not tell, why you are in a state of civil divorce. Remember the church has always taught celibacy to all the unmarried, so all are restricted to sexual relations to their marriage partner, thus the advice you are receiving.

Then I guess you should read the excerpt from the catechism that I provided.
Especially
*That is the language used for sin. It may be that in your situation it was understood that you did not sin but otherwise it may be that they were just trying to comfort you . I don’t know. Church teaching is pretty clear right there. Like I said it depends upon the situation. There can be an innocent party. *

In the absence of a serious reason by which one spouse must protect themself and the children, then the two should live as one. Many times spouses who have been unable to fulfill their emotional unity live as brother and sister thus providing the proper up bring for children. Often the spouses live together for life in less than perfect unity however they attempt to full fill their convenient as best as is available in their situation. We as an outsider rarely if ever would know the “unity” of any marriage.

It is not our place to ask about Carlion’s path whether it is straight and narrow or long and winding it is Carlion’s path and not ours.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

This intrigues me. How’s that going for you?

Any chance of you guys getting back together, or is that a really dumb question given your circumstances? What’s it take to get an annulment?

It takes a review of the original conditions around the marriage to see if evidence exists that one or both parties was unwilling, unknowing, or did not understand the true meaning of marriage, and thus entered the convenient improperly

Will you pursue one? What are the odds you’ll wind up being chaste the rest of your life?

Excuse me if I do not ask about your sex life in return

I’m taking it a bit off-topic. All of that is probably covered on a half-dozen other threads. I’m still pretty interested in your specific experience, though. Anyway, here’s my attempt to do something on-topic that’s more for everyone: What’s happening inside your head during that time between where you lose your salvation and then regain it with a valid confession?

I am so glad to know you understand salvation is not a once saved always saved method. How do you know Carlion has lost salvation?

Thoughts, feelings, emotions…what’s going on? I’ve gotten the perspective of people who’ve…swum backstroke across the Tiber away from Rome, I suppose. I’m curious to see what the Roman citizens in good standing will say.

We say it is a shame that rather than live per God’s plan some turn to other who also refuse the difficult parts of God’s plan and offer to God a partial compliance plan as a counter offer.

Hope that answers your questions sufficiently

 

[Seatuck]

Sacramental marriages are convenient with god entered by two spouses, non sacramental marriages are improper attempts to answer god’s call except in the rare circumstance that proper marriage understanding is not available.
The situations vary greatly

• Why has this man become violate, alcoholic, drug addicted, or disappeared, etc., etc.
• Why has this woman become violate, alcoholic, drug addicted, or disappeared, etc., etc.
  In some cases, certainly not all, one spouse is properly living the vocation of marriage and the other is destroying the family either willfully or through a disorder means as drug addiction. These cases place the proper spouse in the poor situation of assume all protection responsibilities for the children and themself. These condition can require the proper spouse to seek civil divorce for protection( mental, physical, emotional, etc)

I will not ask and please do not tell, why you are in a state of civil divorce. Remember the church has always taught celibacy to all the unmarried, so all are restricted to sexual relations to their marriage partner, thus the advice you are receiving.
In the absence of a serious reason by which one spouse must protect themself and the children, then the two should live as one. Many times spouses who have been unable to fulfill their emotional unity live as brother and sister thus providing the proper up bring for children. Often the spouses live together for life in less than perfect unity however they attempt to full fill their convenient as best as is available in their situation. We as an outsider rarely if ever would know the “unity” of any marriage.

It is not our place to ask about Carlion’s path whether it is straight and narrow or long and winding it is Carlion’s path and not ours.

I don’t believe I deserve such censure. I did not ask about her path. Just corrected her statement and provided the church teaching for her to look at and weigh against what she was told.And also for others to read so that they do not think divorce is no big deal. In fact I acknowledged that perhaps those who knew her situation might have seen her as an innocent party.

 

[turtle18]

Not to mention missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin…between missing Mass on Sundays, contraception, and pre-marital sex/masturbation, I’d be willing to guess a lot of Catholics are in a state of mortal sin & have done it more than three to five times in their life.

And don’t forgot about envy and greed which are consumer obsessed society doesn’t even seem to recognize as being wrong.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I don’t believe I deserve such censure. I did not ask about her path. Just corrected her statement and provided the church teaching for her to look at and weigh against what she was told.And also for others to read so that they do not think divorce is no big deal. In fact I acknowledged that perhaps those who knew her situation might have seen her as an innocent party.

It would seem to me your censure is self imposed? If you did not ask her path then such statements should have no accusation to you. Let me assure you many Catholics hurt the church’s mission by their comments on “invalid marriages” and “divorce”. The catechism posts also contain in standard type “**If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.” **Also and more importantly we have **“It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law.” **This latter section is becoming more and more common because many today see marriage as reversible.

The parts I find callus are the assumptions that divorce are done without thought, and the term “invalid” will be interpreted correctly. Neither have much of a chance of being true.

BTW Catholic marriages are better than average but far from without mistake here is a reference:

Barna report: Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)-------- % who have been divorced
Non-denominational **----------------------------------------------- 34%
Baptists------------------------------------------------------------------- 29%
Mainline Protestants------------------------------------------------- 25%
Mormons----------------------------------------------------------------- 24%
Catholics------------------------------------------------------------------ 21%
Lutherans----------------------------------------------------------------- 21%
religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

 

[Seatuck]

It would seem to me your censure is self imposed?

Well, no, because you put your statement soon after a quote of mine. It definitely looks as if you meant me.

 

[Carlion]

This intrigues me. How’s that going for you?

Any chance of you guys getting back together, or is that a really dumb question given your circumstances? What’s it take to get an annulment? Will you pursue one? What are the odds you’ll wind up being chaste the rest of your life?

I’m taking it a bit off-topic. All of that is probably covered on a half-dozen other threads. I’m still pretty interested in your specific experience, though. Anyway, here’s my attempt to do something on-topic that’s more for everyone: What’s happening inside your head during that time between where you lose your salvation and then regain it with a valid confession? Thoughts, feelings, emotions…what’s going on? I’ve gotten the perspective of people who’ve…swum backstroke across the Tiber away from Rome, I suppose. I’m curious to see what the Roman citizens in good standing will say.

Due to circumstances regarding the form and intent behind the marriage, we’re applying for annulment.

The point is, a Met. Tribunal won’t even consider taking up the issue until you have your divorce decree in hand. Says so right there on the form. I find it hard to believe that the representatives of the Archdiocese are purposely inducing me to commit a mortal sin

 

[ready]

Texas Roofer, I’ve never been divorced and neither have my parents but I am grateful you corrected the other post-er’s misconception. I felt bad for the divorced woman who was put under attack.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…What’s happening inside your head during that time between where you lose your salvation and then regain it with a valid confession? Thoughts, feelings, emotions…what’s going on? …

Ideally, a person who has committed mortal sin will feel sincere sorrow for having offending God. More commonly a person may just worry about the state of their own soul–if they even do that much. It may take time before a person fully realizes the sinfulness of their actions–and by time I mean hours, days or years. Until such point, mortal sin cuts us off from God’s grace. God is usually still at work in the person’s life, (because He’s the Good Shepherd and He seeks the lost) but the person may slip further away from God, falling deeper into sin because he/she chose to turn away from God.

Seatuck’s commented that your friend was incorrect that mortal sins are not committed frequently. I agree with Seatuck. Others mentioned that a mortal sin requires grave matter, knowledge and fully consent. The Church offers guidelines about the types of actions that are grave enough to qualify as mortal sins if done with full knowledge and full consent of the will. Many of those sins are everyday occurances. I won’t judge the state of anyone’s soul–that’s God’s place, but when someone commits sin (big or small), it’s easier to commit the next sin.

The story of the Prodigal Son demonstrates what can goes on with a sinner who has left God. Sin, further sin and enjoyment of sin, bad consequences turning to worse consequences, recognition that life could be better with the Father, sorrow for sin related to self-pity, sorrow for sin because it destroyed the relationship with God, longing to return to God then the journey home, confession, forgiveness, restored relationship.