Question About Muslims

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If I understand Islam correctly (and I may not), it is part of the religion to kill anyone who is not a muslim. If so, why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs? Maybe I just don’t correctly understand what Muslims believe.

On a side-note, a person I know (he has a “different” sense of humor) once walked into a restaurant and saw a table with some people who were obviously Muslim. He walked over and asked if they had a bomb under the table.:eek: They laughed, and he ended up eating dinner with them. 😃
 
It isn’t part of our religion to kill anyone who is not a Muslim. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion, as truth is distinct from error (Qur’an 2:256).
 
Kadaveri said:
It isn’t part of our religion to kill anyone who is not a Muslim. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion, as truth is distinct from error (Qur’an 2:256).
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Maybe I don’t understand… But where do these people get the idea that it is good to kill non-Muslims?
 
Generally, they’re people who’ve suffered some injustice, and are then lead astray by fanatics who exploit their anger for their own purposes.
 
Could you explain Jihad for me? I am assuming not all Muslims practice this.
This is from Wikipedia
Jihad means “to strive or struggle” (in the way of God) and is considered the “Sixth Pillar of Islam” by a minority of Sunni Muslim authorities.[64] Jihad, in its broadest sense, is classically defined as “exerting one’s utmost power, efforts, endeavors, or ability in contending with an object of disapprobation.” Depending on the object being a visible enemy, the devil, and aspects of one’s own self, different categories of Jihad are defined.[65] Jihad, when used without any qualifier, is understood in its military aspect.[66][67] Jihad also refers to one’s striving to attain religious and moral perfection.[68] Some Muslim authorities, especially among the Shi’a and Sufis, distinguish between the “greater jihad”, which pertains to spiritual self-perfection, and the “lesser jihad”, defined as warfare.[69]
Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants in the defense or expansion of the Islamic state, the ultimate purpose of which is to universalize Islam. Jihad, the only form of warfare permissible in Islamic law, may be declared against apostates, rebels, highway robbers, violent groups, un-Islamic leaders or states which refuse to submit to the authority of Islam.[70][71] Most Muslims today interpret Jihad as only a defensive form of warfare: the external Jihad includes a struggle to make the Islamic societies conform to the Islamic norms of justice.[72]
Under most circumstances and for most Muslims, jihad is a collective duty (fard kifaya): its performance by some individuals exempts the others. Only for those vested with authority, especially the sovereign (imam), does jihad become an individual duty. For the rest of the populace, this happens only in the case of a general mobilization.[71] For most Shias, offensive jihad can only be declared by a divinely appointed leader of the Muslim community, and as such is suspended since Muhammad al-Mahdi’s[73] occultation in 868 AD.[74]
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Jihad is an important part of Islam. The word itself comes from the Arabic noun ‘juhd’, which means an ‘effort’, and jihad is the process of making an effort, i.e. a struggle. In Islam jihad means to struggle in the cause of God, and can mean a variety of things, for example the Prophet Muhammad said the greatest form of jihad is speaking the truth in front of a tyrant. Jihad can also mean is often used to refer to a physical/military struggle in the way of God, in which case it’s similar to Catholicisms’ doctrine of ‘just war’.
 
bigfootbob said:
If I understand Islam correctly (and I may not), it is part of the religion to kill anyone who is not a muslim. If so, why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs? Maybe I just don’t correctly understand what Muslims believe.

On a side-note, a person I know (he has a “different” sense of humor) once walked into a restaurant and saw a table with some people who were obviously Muslim. He walked over and asked if they had a bomb under the table.:eek: They laughed, and he ended up eating dinner with them. 😃
Click to expand...
I may be not an expert in Islam, but this certainly is not true.

There are Quranic verses that exhorted them to kill the unbelievers but that is only in certain situation and condition. The problem is that siuation/condition is open to interpretation by individual Muslims and Ulamas (Muslim clergies). So you have Muslims who actually kill even innocent non-Muslims for a greater Islamic cause.
 
bigfootbob said:
If I understand Islam correctly (and I may not), it is part of the religion to kill anyone who is not a muslim. If so, why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs? Maybe I just don’t correctly understand what Muslims believe.
Click to expand...
Bob, the most recent issue of “Homiletics & Pastoral Review” includes a book review by Fr. James V. Shall of the recently-published book, Questions on Islam, by Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., an Egyptian Jesuit. The review includes some quotes from the book; this one is to the point of your question:

“When some fanatics kill children, women, and men in tne name of pure and authentic Islam, or in the name of the Qu’ran or of the Muslim tradition, nobody can tell them: ‘You are not true and authentic Muslims.’ All they can say is: ‘Your reading of Islam is not ours.’ And this is the ambiguity of Islam, from its beginning to our presented day: violence is a part of it, although it is also possible to choose tolerance; tolerance is a part of it, but it is also possible to choose violence.”

This might be a book to consider purchasing if someone wants to be better-informed about Islam.
 
bigfootbob said:
If I understand Islam correctly (and I may not), it is part of the religion to kill anyone who is not a muslim. If so, why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs? Maybe I just don’t correctly understand what Muslims believe.
Click to expand...
Killing everyone? No. The gradual enforcement of their conversion to Islam is another matter. That is the purpose of this one passage in the Quran:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; Yusuf Ali]

The jizya was a tax non-Muslims paid (especially Jews and Christians) for “protection” - if they converted, it was removed. Of course, any extra tax given upon a people simply for their religious beliefs is a violation of human rights. It is also worth noting that the notable Islamic scholars early on in the faith all identified passages such as S. 9:29 as being warlike in stature and referring to war. It wasn’t until recently that Muslim apologists began to argue that mentions of war and jihad in the Quran were solely metaphorical in nature.

Some choice hadith quotes as well:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it. [Sahih Muslim, Book 026, Number 5389]

It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. [Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366]

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the Jews and Christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah’s Apostle after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah’s Apostle and the Muslims… [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 380]

So killing non-Muslims? No. But, according to Islamic tradition, the actions of Mohammad and his companions, and the Koran, there is a gradual forcing of Islam upon a population.
 
bigfootbob said:
why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs?
Click to expand...
That type of killing in Islam is one type of Jihad that Muslims could and couldn’t do, it depends on the circumstances and the Islamic status, here are two hadiths which explain that:

Sahih Muslim, Book 020, Number 4696:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.
صحيح مسلم:
قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من مات ولم يغز ولم يحدث به نفسه مات على ‏ ‏شعبة ‏ ‏من نفاق ‏
​
(E) (A)

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0079:
“…I heard the Messenger of Allah as saying: He who amongst you sees something abominable should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhor it) from his heart, and that is the least of faith.”
صحيح مسلم
أول من بدأ بالخطبة يوم العيد قبل الصلاة ‏ ‏مروان ‏ ‏فقام إليه رجل فقال الصلاة قبل الخطبة فقال قد ترك ما هنالك فقال ‏ ‏أبو سعيد ‏ ‏أما هذا فقد قضى ما عليه سمعت رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏من رأى منكم منكرا فليغيره بيده فإن لم يستطع فبلسانه فإن لم يستطع فبقلبه وذلك أضعف الإيمان ‏
​
(E) (A)

So first,** Jihad by hand.**
if not possible then:
Second,** Jihad by tongue.**
if not possible then:
Third,** Jihad by heart.**
 
So basically, things like Ft. Hood or 9/11 are from some Muslim’s interpretation of jihad, right?
 
FCEGM said:
Bob, the most recent issue of “Homiletics & Pastoral Review” includes a book review by Fr. James V. Shall of the recently-published book, Questions on Islam, by Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., an Egyptian Jesuit. The review includes some quotes from the book; this one is to the point of your question:

“When some fanatics kill children, women, and men in tne name of pure and authentic Islam, or in the name of the Qu’ran or of the Muslim tradition, nobody can tell them: ‘You are not true and authentic Muslims.’ All they can say is: ‘Your reading of Islam is not ours.’ And this is the ambiguity of Islam, from its beginning to our presented day: violence is a part of it, although it is also possible to choose tolerance; tolerance is a part of it, but it is also possible to choose violence.”

This might be a book to consider purchasing if someone wants to be better-informed about Islam.
Click to expand...
I would not recommend any anti-Islamic book to bob. Bob is investigating about Islam. So it is better to read some different kind of book that will introduce Islam to bob in a better way. I would recommend reading:
  1. “Bible, Science and Quran” by Maurice Bucaille, A frenchman.
  2. “Jesus is heavens on earth”, by Nazir Ahmed.
  3. “Revelation, rationality, knowledge and Truth.” by Tahir Ahmad.
There is a wrong concept of Jihad amongst Muslims, i.e. to use force to spread Islam, even to kill the non-believers, apostates etc. That is all foolishness. Of course some great religious leaders (Bigots) put that idea into the head of the poor Muslims to take up arms and acrry out armed struggle.

The real rason for the Jihad being carried out today was well explained in few words by Kadaveri in the first few posts.

Islam did not teach such things. Real Jihad is the purification of the soul from the lower desires of the self, from the bad desires. In this age there is no Jihad with weapons.

Even if there was any need for Military type Jihad, there are very serious conditions to do Jihad and those conditions are not fulfilled in this age. For instance:
  1. There should be a real Muslim spiritual leader to conduct fighting type of jihad.
  2. The Muslims should have the means to be able to fight (which they do not have).
  3. There should be a definite serious cause to go ahead for Jihad.
  4. Any individual cannot make the call for Jihad.
In short, There is no justification for any Jihad. Osama B laden may have been thinking that he was legally justified to carry out some kind of Jihad. But he was wrong. Islam does not allow any such activity. It is a sin to in Islam to start any religious war. It is a sin. That is the ruling of the Book and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad.

The condition for Jihad do not exist. There are many other foolish ideas in the heads of the Muslim religious leaders, such as killing the apostates, or enforcing Sharia laws in name sake Muslim countries or in the western countries. It is all foolish matter. There is no such injunction in the Quran.

If there is any slight matter concerning these things, the leaders have completely misunderstood the real meaning. There is no need for any political activity too. In Islam there is the principle of LIve and let live.
I have stated my opinion that there is no killing type of Jihad in islam. If it is being done some where it was advised by some religious leaders of India and pakistan and Sudan and Egypt and Syria. That was all wrong.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Killing everyone? No. The gradual enforcement of their conversion to Islam is another matter. That is the purpose of this one passage in the Quran:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; Yusuf Ali]

The jizya was a tax non-Muslims paid (especially Jews and Christians) for “protection” - if they converted, it was removed. Of course, any extra tax given upon a people simply for their religious beliefs is a violation of human rights. It is also worth noting that the notable Islamic scholars early on in the faith all identified passages such as S. 9:29 as being warlike in stature and referring to war. It wasn’t until recently that Muslim apologists began to argue that mentions of war and jihad in the Quran were solely metaphorical in nature.

Some choice hadith quotes as well:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it. [Sahih Muslim, Book 026, Number 5389]

It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. [Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366]

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the Jews and Christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah’s Apostle after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah’s Apostle and the Muslims… [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 380]

So killing non-Muslims? No. But, according to Islamic tradition, the actions of Mohammad and his companions, and the Koran, there is a gradual forcing of Islam upon a population.
Click to expand...
It’s human nature to obstinately resist arguments waged against ourselves even if they are true. Muslims have to face the truth of what’s in their books. As much as the mainstream Muslims hate to admit it, yes there is violence, terrorism, torture, barbarianism and forceful compulsion in an ideological violent false version of Islam followed by the majority of Muslims today. But if we turn to true Islam we will not find any encouragement of violence or terrorism. To the contrary, true Islam absolutely forbids violence even against animals and plants.

Who then created this false version? Those who turned against the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) after his death are the ones who created this false version which justifies acts of violence and terrorism.

our prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and his family are victims of the mutiny of the “companions”, the Caliphs, and scholars and hadith forgers on the Caliph’s payroll.

This violent false version Islam started when the companions poisoned and killed our prophet, killed his daughter, poisoned his first grandson, and behaded his second grandson. They ordered all scrolls and books be gathered and burned so there is no record of the Prophet’s legacy. They oppressed everybody, Muslim and Non-Muslim alike, and to justify their behavior they bankrolled Scholars and hadith forgers to attribute similar behavior to the the prophet. This version if Islam was forced down the people’s throats. At the same time, the true followers of Muhammad and his Family (pbuh&hf) were savagely hunted down, butchered, tortured, and murdered. Given the circumstances Taqiyya was necessary to protect our faith, families, lives, and property from the savage onslaught of these hobos.

So yes there is violence, but in a false Islam. True Islam lives on it’s pure and original form as taught by the Prophet and his Family (pbuh&hf) in what is known today as Shi’i Islam.
 
planten said:
  1. “Bible, Science and Quran” by Maurice Bucaille, A frenchman.
Click to expand...
I can suggest you another book.you can read this book **The Qur’an and the Bible in the Light of History & Science ** written by Dr. William Campbell .
The book Cracked the logic of your favorite book “Bible, Science and Quran” by Maurice Bucaille,.
BTW you can find the book “The Qur’an and the Bible in the Light of History & Science” here .I have read the book, and I found the book as a missile against the inconsistencies of Bible, Science and Quran.

You can order the book here directly if do not want to search the previous link.

PS.You may find the link hateful because it directly shows the errors of islam, and everyone know that ,truth against Islam is always bitter for all of you.
 
famdigy said:
our prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and his family are victims of the mutiny of the “companions”, the Caliphs, and scholars and hadith forgers on the Caliph’s payroll.

This violent false version Islam started when the companions poisoned and killed our prophet, killed his daughter, poisoned his first grandson, and behaded his second grandson. They ordered all scrolls and books be gathered and burned so there is no record of the Prophet’s legacy. They oppressed everybody, Muslim and Non-Muslim alike, and to justify their behavior they bankrolled Scholars and hadith forgers to attribute similar behavior to the the prophet. This version if Islam was forced down the people’s throats. At the same time, the true followers of Muhammad and his Family (pbuh&hf) were savagely hunted down, butchered, tortured, and murdered. Given the circumstances Taqiyya was necessary to protect our faith, families, lives, and property from the savage onslaught of these hobos.

So yes there is violence, but in a false Islam. True Islam lives on it’s pure and original form as taught by the Prophet and his Family (pbuh&hf) in what is known today as Shi’i Islam.
Click to expand...
This is an interesting response which makes me want to research Shi’a Islam even more. 😃 When you say “false Islam,” are you in fact referring to Sunni Islam?

Out of curiosity, I assume you refer to Mohammad (obviously) when you say the prophet was poisoned? Is that in Shi’a tradition? Furthermore, what does Shi’a Islam say about the sahih hadith sources that cite Mohammad claiming almost all his companions (or at the very least his top ones) will enter Paradise? I assume that many of the “false companions” included those who directly knew Mohammad and were well respected, especially among Sunni Muslims.
 
bigfootbob said:
So basically, things like Ft. Hood or 9/11 are from some Muslim’s interpretation of jihad, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, not to mention the enticing things like the special ranking and the special 72 houris for the jihadist in paradise…
 
bigfootbob said:
If I understand Islam correctly (and I may not), it is part of the religion to kill anyone who is not a muslim. If so, why is there not more muslims killing people? Wouldn’t they be sinning according to their beliefs? Maybe I just don’t correctly understand what Muslims believe.

On a side-note, a person I know (he has a “different” sense of humor) once walked into a restaurant and saw a table with some people who were obviously Muslim. He walked over and asked if they had a bomb under the table.:eek: They laughed, and he ended up eating dinner with them. 😃
Click to expand...
The SAME reason why nobody would kill themselves for you if you offered them a million dollars and a bunch of virgins unless these people had no hope and had no choice but to take yours as the final and only resort for them.

Today, many muslims are living comfortable lives. There is absolutely NO REASON why they should resort to supporting the teachings in the quran to slaughter kafirs unless they were driven to support it because they failed in their social lives.

BUT be aware of this…MANY muslims are failing socially because the quran teaches them to reject secular knowledge and history…which naturally leads them to be inept at working lives because they lack the academic prowess to do so. Few therefore are able to live comfortably especially those in the middle east. That is why you will see more and more islamic terrorists when these islamic countries become backward and poor. (Eg. Afganistan, Iraq, Iran etc).

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
  • Just like we often say, a sinful man who calls himself a christian does injustice to the christian faith…similarly, a good natured and altruistic man who calls himself a muslim does injustice to the islamic faith.
.
 
Kadaveri said:
It isn’t part of our religion to kill anyone who is not a Muslim. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion, as truth is distinct from error (Qur’an 2:256).
Click to expand...
Maybe I am reading it wrong, but is there really no compulsion in Islam? ie can anyone change their religion with no fear of being killed? Than that is news to me. Are you sure of it?

Can you give some quaranic references? and also hadis? Mostly quran.
 
planten said:
I would not recommend any anti-Islamic book to bob. Bob is investigating about Islam. So it is better to read some different kind of book that will introduce Islam to bob in a better way. I would recommend reading:
  1. “Bible, Science and Quran” by Maurice Bucaille, A frenchman.
  2. “Jesus is heavens on earth”, by Nazir Ahmed.
  3. “Revelation, rationality, knowledge and Truth.” by Tahir Ahmad.
There is a wrong concept of Jihad amongst Muslims, i.e. to use force to spread Islam, even to kill the non-believers, apostates etc. That is all foolishness. Of course some great religious leaders (Bigots) put that idea into the head of the poor Muslims to take up arms and acrry out armed struggle.

The real rason for the Jihad being carried out today was well explained in few words by Kadaveri in the first few posts.

Islam did not teach such things. Real Jihad is the purification of the soul from the lower desires of the self, from the bad desires. In this age there is no Jihad with weapons.

Even if there was any need for Military type Jihad, there are very serious conditions to do Jihad and those conditions are not fulfilled in this age. For instance:
  1. There should be a real Muslim spiritual leader to conduct fighting type of jihad.
  2. The Muslims should have the means to be able to fight (which they do not have).
  3. There should be a definite serious cause to go ahead for Jihad.
  4. Any individual cannot make the call for Jihad.
In short, There is no justification for any Jihad. Osama B laden may have been thinking that he was legally justified to carry out some kind of Jihad. But he was wrong. Islam does not allow any such activity. It is a sin to in Islam to start any religious war. It is a sin. That is the ruling of the Book and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad.

The condition for Jihad do not exist. There are many other foolish ideas in the heads of the Muslim religious leaders, such as killing the apostates, or enforcing Sharia laws in name sake Muslim countries or in the western countries. It is all foolish matter. There is no such injunction in the Quran.

If there is any slight matter concerning these things, the leaders have completely misunderstood the real meaning. There is no need for any political activity too. In Islam there is the principle of LIve and let live.
I have stated my opinion that there is no killing type of Jihad in islam. If it is being done some where it was advised by some religious leaders of India and pakistan and Sudan and Egypt and Syria. That was all wrong.
Click to expand...
Hello Planten,could you tell me if Maurice Bucaille, the favourite french writer of Muslims ever became a muslim? I believe there is another writer called Karen Armstrong who wrote biography of Mohammed, could you let me know if she too became a muslim? I tried various sources but could not trace. But as they are your favorite writes will appreciate if you would share that.
 
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