Question about my children

[mtview]

I hope there is someone here who might direct me to the correct answer regarding my children’s status as Catholics.

I was raised Latin Rite and our first two children were baptized in the Roman church. Later we attended for a number of years a Byzantine Catholic parish where the rest of our children were baptized and all (including the Latin baptized) chrismated Byzantine.

Now none of us are near an Eastern church and there has been question about their status by some priests. BTW, their father has never been Catholic. I was told by a Byzantine priest that they all were considered Byzantine because of their Chrismation even though I wasn’t Byzantine. Other Catholic priests have said the older ones are Roman because of their Baptism and the Chrismation didn’t matter. The other children seem to be questionable since I was Latin. Some have told me, regardless of the Byzantine Baptism/Chrismation, they would still be considered Roman. This has posed somewhat of problem in regards to marriage etc.

Where do I find officially how they would be classified? Even diocesan offices seem somewhat confused and unsure? Thanks for any help anyone can give!

 

[mardukm]

Dear mtview,

First, I must say I am not an expert in this area.

What is your husband’s religion? Is he from one of the Orthodox Churches?

The father’s faith is normally the determining factor, but assuming he is not a member of any of the apostolic Churches, then your faith is the determining factor. Since you are canonically a Latin, then your newer children are Latin, regardless of where they were baptized…

However, regarding your two older children who were chrismated in the EC. The Latin Catholic Church recognizes an “age of reason” wherein a child is regarded to be able to make informed decisions of their own. This age varies in many Latin Catholic Churches. It can be anywhere from 5 to 14 years of age. You will need to look up what your local Latin Church considers the “age of reason.” If your children were chrismated on or beyond this age, then they would be EC.

But, as stated, I am no expert, and I am not in a place right now where I can access my usual canonical materials.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mtview]

Thank you Marduk. That has been the frustrating part in trying to sort this out. I have been told the opposite answers from either side. Their father is Protestant.

No one has ever mentioned the ‘age of reason’ for deciding which rite. As I mentioned before, I was told that because they were Chrismated in the Eastern Rite that that was the determining factor—according to the Byzantines. But then was told that for the Latin rite it was the Baptism that counted, not the Chrismation . The older ones baptized Latin were I believe 14 and 15 when Chrismated. The others have always considered themselves Byzantine even after moving away and having to go to a Roman liturgy. If you are correct, the younger ones would be Latin even though there is no record at any Latin parish? How would that play out when they need documentation of sacraments when thinking of marriage? It would be the same with the older ones I would think also, if they are at a Latin parish but Chrismated eastern.

It seems I may need to go back to the dioceses involved and again ask for clarification. Am not sure I will get the same answers from the different ones, but will need to try.

Am still hoping that someone here may be able to direct me to some canonical documentation from either the Latin church or the Byzantine that would clarify how each sees such a situation.

Thanks again.

 

[5Loaves]

Welcome to the Forum and the EC section!

Consult your canon law office at the Diocese.

Notice of the Chrismations should have been sent to the Latin parish where the children were baptized who were baptized in a Latin Church, for recording in their baptismal records. Likewise their marriages would be recorded in that record. As Latin Catholics I believe they needed to request a formal change in church sui iuris in order to have been Chrismated outside the Latin Church with neither parent as an Eastern Catholic. I believe that an adult Catholic of the Latin Church would have needed to make that formal request for a change in canonical status and as Marduk says they were beyond the age of reason.

It’s good to get help from the Diocese/Eparchy in getting it clearly straightened out. At the time of marriage, or if one of them wants to enter into religious life, their canonical status needs to be clear.

We know that there are times when children and even adults erroneously get recorded as Latin when baptized in a Latin parish even though they are in fact Byzantine or OC due to their father’s baptism and Chrismation in an ECC/OCC. So just because something is recorded in a Latin parish or in a ECC parish record doesn’t mean it’s correct.

The obligations are also different for Latin and for ECC as you know for fasting and for feasting and even in some cases they are on a different calendar.

I would not try to do this own your own. It’s best left to the pros.

It’s a good thing you want to get it straightened out.

 

[mardukm]

Dear Mtview,

Brother 5Loaves gave some great advice:

Notice of the Chrismations should have been sent to the Latin parish where the children were baptized who were baptized in a Latin Church, for recording in their baptismal records. Likewise their marriages would be recorded in that record. As Latin Catholics I believe they needed to request a formal change in church sui iuris in order to have been Chrismated outside the Latin Church with neither parent as an Eastern Catholic. I believe that an adult Catholic of the Latin Church would have needed to make that formal request for a change in canonical status and as Marduk says they were beyond the age of reason.

I had occasion to do some in-depth research for a member here last here who was asking about switching canonical enrollment for himself and his children, basically in the same boat as you. The fact is, it is waaaaaay easire for a Latin to transfer canonical enrollment to an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church than vice-versa. For an Eastern or Oriental Catholic to transfer to the Latin Church requires the approval of both the Latin bishop and the Eastern/Oriental bishop of that person involving a lot of red tape. For a Latin to transfer to an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church, the only thing required is the consent of Rome, which is a lot easier than it sounds. Normally, the bishop of the ECC or OCC to which the Latin wants to transfer acts as that person’s advocate to Rome, and it’s basically a done deal when the EC or OC bishop gives his recommendation.

If you want your whole family to worship in an EC Church, I think what is needed in your circumstance is a formal request from you and your two teen children. Do that through the EC bishop, who will process all the paperwork for you.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Diak]

When they are 14 they can choose themselves. Until then if your husband is not Catholic, and you have never changed particular Churches, the children remain in the same particular Church as yourself. If you are Latin, they are Latin regardless of the particular ritual tradition they were initiated into.

Canon 29 of the Eastern Code of Canon Law (CCEO) clearly states this:

1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic…

I have had quite a few friends over the years who preferred baptisms according to our UGCC usage because they wanted the ancient practice of triple initiation. This did not change their enrollment as Latins. The priest is supposed to note in the baptismal register the particular church of origin of the baptizand.

 

[5Loaves]

Brother 5Loaves gave some great advice:

I’m glad it seemed good advice, but I’m female I’ve gotten posters gender confused more times than I can remember.

For a Latin to transfer to an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church, the only thing required is the consent of Rome, which is a lot easier than it sounds. Normally, the bishop of the ECC or OCC to which the Latin wants to transfer acts as that person’s advocate to Rome, and it’s basically a done deal when the EC or OC bishop gives his recommendation.

When you’re speaking about Rome here would this be the bishops working via the papal nuncio here? I’m asking because that is a role, papal nuncio, I’m trying to understand better. His role came up in canon law class several times in passing but we didn’t ever discuss it directly. We heard last night on the news that the papal nuncio in Haiti is one of the survivers of the quake, thanks be to God, which brought the role to my mind again today.

-Mary

 

[Diak]

Mary, in the old Code the Pro-Nuncio alone could approve the transfer (for example Pio Laghi, the Pro-Nuncio at the time, sent my letter). But under the newer Code, the respective Eastern and Latin bishops trade letters and it does not go to the Pro-Nuncio anymore. You simply write the Eastern bishop whose Eparchy you wish to join, copy the Latins, and the respective chanceries take it from there.

 

[5Loaves]

Mary, in the old Code the Pro-Nuncio alone could approve the transfer (for example Pio Laghi, the Pro-Nuncio at the time, sent my letter). But under the newer Code, the respective Eastern and Latin bishops trade letters and it does not go to the Pro-Nuncio anymore. You simply write the Eastern bishop whose Eparchy you wish to join, copy the Latins, and the respective chanceries take it from there.

For a Latin to transfer to an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church, the only thing required is the consent of Rome, which is a lot easier than it sounds. Normally, the bishop of the ECC or OCC to which the Latin wants to transfer acts as that person’s advocate to Rome, and it’s basically a done deal when the EC or OC bishop gives his recommendation.

So when mardukm says “consent of Rome”/“the bishop…acts as that person’s advocate to Rome” are you saying that the bishops/chanceries are the direct contact with Rome?

 

[mtview]

Thank you all again for your comments. I just realized today that I have an acquaintance (but haven’t contacted in a number of years) who is a canon lawyer in another state/diocese. He is Latin Rite, so may try to contact him for more info.

Our children are all out of the home now. Am thinking I may need to ask the younger ones what exactly is on their Baptismal/Chrismation documents that they have with them. I don’t recall Baptismal etc. documents saying anything about the parents/Godparents except names. Nothing about their Rite. It would be assumed that they would be the same as the parent/s.

As far as our older two, I just realized that I should possibly check with the parish they were baptized at to see if the Chrismation info was forwarded to them. With the others I don’t quite see how a parish (say in the case of marriage) can say that they are Latin and not Eastern because I am not familiar with any priest asking for anything other than Baptismal/Chrismation/Confirmation documents. No documents or statements about parents’ rites at that time. It would seem that they would just assume that the person is actually Eastern in Rite, would it not?

Sorry for all the ramblings, but I seem to be working this out in my own mind while writing As I have said before, trying to get answers from priests/parishes/dioceses has not been successful so far. When they were all younger the questions and possible problems just didn’t pop up in my mind nor were they ever mentioned by any priest.

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[5Loaves]

Thank you all again for your comments. I just realized today that I have an acquaintance (but haven’t contacted in a number of years) who is a canon lawyer in another state/diocese. He is Latin Rite, so may try to contact him for more info.

Our children are all out of the home now. Am thinking I may need to ask the younger ones what exactly is on their Baptismal/Chrismation documents that they have with them. I don’t recall Baptismal etc. documents saying anything about the parents/Godparents except names. Nothing about their Rite. It would be assumed that they would be the same as the parent/s.

As far as our older two, I just realized that I should possibly check with the parish they were baptized at to see if the Chrismation info was forwarded to them. With the others I don’t quite see how a parish (say in the case of marriage) can say that they are Latin and not Eastern because I am not familiar with any priest asking for anything other than Baptismal/Chrismation/Confirmation documents. No documents or statements about parents’ rites at that time. It would seem that they would just assume that the person is actually Eastern in Rite, would it not?

Sorry for all the ramblings, but I seem to be working this out in my own mind while writing As I have said before, trying to get answers from priests/parishes/dioceses has not been successful so far. When they were all younger the questions and possible problems just didn’t pop up in my mind nor were they ever mentioned by any priest.

Again, thanks for the help!

I’ve always found the folks in our canon law office at the chancery really helpful. There is definitely some unraveling to do with your two sets of kids. Canon law is clear. It just takes getting clear what applies to your kids. In reality parish priests often are not clear and therefore,as we’ve already said, stuff happens that isn’t licit.* This may or may not be the case in your situation.

A different situation-- I decided to get a copy of my daughter’s documents for her birthday one year recently. She became Christian & Catholic, Latin Church, as a older child so received all three Sacraments at once as an adult does in the Latin Church. My daughter is Deaf and received her Sacraments from a Deaf priest in a Deaf “mission”. I called the canon law office to ask what to do and they send me to the church where the Baptism ( plus Confirmation & First Holy Communion) took place which is where the record should be. That parish had no record of any of it. I called the office that handles the Deaf ministries and they eventually found a record in their files. They then sent a copy to the parish where the Sacraments had taken place. Those records should have been sent to that parish at the time of the event, a number of years before. The Deaf ministries office also sent me lovely certificates which I framed for a birthday present that year. Had my daughter needed proof of her Baptism for some reason she would have had a very hard time managing on her own, due to various other issues she has, sorting it out. I was really glad I had done it.

With help you will get it figured out and, clearly, you’ll feel better when that’s done. And someday your kids also might be grateful you did.

• And sometimes they are clear and don’t like what canon law requires so they just disregard it. We had parish priests who, in the name of being pastoral, did things that weren’t licit. I have seen these come back to haunt people. I’m not priest bashing - I know they sincerely mean well when doing these things.

 

[StillWondering]

Dear Mtview,

I think this apostolic can help you or at least direct to you someone who can. They specialize in canon law issues and it sounds like yours is a judicial question involving the children and marriage. Please check them out.

st-joseph-foundation.org/

 

[aspirant]

If both parents are Catholic, a child is automatically baptized into the Church of his father unless both parents request that the child be baptized into the mother’s Church. In other words, if Dad is Latin and Mom is Ruthenian, Junior is Latin unless both parents request that he be Ruthenian.

If only the mother is Catholic, or if the mother is unmarried, the child is baptized into the Church of the mother. In other words, if Dad is Muslim and Mom is Maronite, Junior is Maronite.

A priest or deacon of the Latin Church may not baptize a child of Eastern Catholic parents unless a priest of the parents’ Church cannot perform the baptism. If a Latin minister does perform the baptism, he must note in the register to which Church the child belongs and notify that Church.

If a person is 14 or older and has not yet been baptized, or requires conditional baptism, he may choose the Church into which he is baptized.

If your children were chrismated on or beyond this age, then they would be EC.

If they were baptized Latin, they are still Latin unless they applied for a change of Church through official channels: “each and every Catholic, as also the baptized of every non-Catholic church or denomination who enters into the fullness of the Catholic communion, must retain his own rite wherever he is, must cherish it and observe it to the best of his ability, without prejudice to the right in special cases of persons, communities or areas, of recourse to the Apostolic See…” (Orientalium Ecclesiarum, no. 4)

(This also means, for example, that a Greek Orthodox Christian who becomes Catholic automatically becomes a Greek Catholic, even if he is received in a Latin parish.)

At the time of Orientalium Ecclesiarum, only the Holy See could approve a transfer from one Catholic Church to another. It can now be done by the mutual agreement of bishops.

The only occasion on which it is easier to transfer from one Catholic Church to another is marriage. An Eastern Catholic wife may transfer to the Church of her husband. A Latin Catholic husband or wife may transfer to the Church of their Eastern spouse at the time of marriage or during the marriage.

 

[aspirant]

The fact is, it is waaaaaay easire for a Latin to transfer canonical enrollment to an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church than vice-versa.

Yes. This is intended to prevent further Latinization.

For an Eastern or Oriental Catholic to transfer to the Latin Church requires the approval of both the Latin bishop and the Eastern/Oriental bishop of that person involving a lot of red tape.

The same is required in the other direction, I can assure you. The Latin must be released by his Latin bishop and received by the Eastern bishop.