Question about Novenas and abuses in them

[Farmer88]

Is a lay woman allowed to lead the prayer, swing the censer, and say the concluding rite? I was just at one this evening, and a lay woman did all that, used the censer to incense a statue of St. Anne, lead the prayer to St. Anne, then finished with the whole “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…our service has ended.” Is that allowed or am I just being too worrying about things? I did think it was strange.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is a lay woman allowed to lead the prayer, swing the censer, and say the concluding rite? I was just at one this evening, and a lay woman did all that, used the censer to incense a statue of St. Anne, lead the prayer to St. Anne, then finished with the whole “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…our service has ended.” Is that allowed or am I just being too worrying about things? I did think it was strange.

Its not a Mass so I don’t see anything wrong with it. Unless there’s something in the prayer called for being led by a priest. Otherwise, anyone can lead. By concluding rite do you mean concluding rite of the Mass? Or you just referred to it as “concluding rite” because it sounds like the concluding rite of the Mass?

 

[Farmer88]

Its not a Mass so I don’t see anything wrong with it. Unless there’s something in the prayer called for being led by a priest. Otherwise, anyone can lead. By concluding rite do you mean concluding rite of the Mass? Or you just referred to it as “concluding rite” because it sounds like the concluding rite of the Mass?

I referred to it as the concluding rite because it was very similar to the concluding rite of the Mass, if that was worded improperly, forgive me. I didn’t know if the prayer called for being lead by a priest. I just thought it was odd that this lay woman was doing something that I would have otherwise thought a priest would do.

 

[Karenanna]

Is a lay woman allowed to lead the prayer, swing the censer, and say the concluding rite? I was just at one this evening, and a lay woman did all that, used the censer to incense a statue of St. Anne, lead the prayer to St. Anne, then finished with the whole “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…our service has ended.” Is that allowed or am I just being too worrying about things? I did think it was strange.

First of all as you have clarified it is not a Mass. It is probably not even a Eucharist service. At the very least what you have described should be done by an Acolyte (who of course is always a male.)

Normally a priest or deacon would do the type of role that you described. A women in this case is inappropriate. It sounds like this woman was aping the role of a priest. This is something which will never happen for any female.

There is probably some dopey man out there who will try to ape a pregnant woman, but I am happy to say that he will never succeed.

Why aren’t some women happy to be women? I certainly am pleased that God has assigned me that gender.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I referred to it as the concluding rite because it was very similar to the concluding rite of the Mass, if that was worded improperly, forgive me. I didn’t know if the prayer called for being lead by a priest. I just thought it was odd that this lay woman was doing something that I would have otherwise thought a priest would do.

Incensing is not something that is exclusive to the priest. I mean, anyone can use incense. Of course during Mass is a different case. But since this is not a Mass as you clearly stated, then I do not see anything wrong with it.

 

[Farmer88]

But it wasn’t just the incensing. It was leading the prayer in the novena, and ending it by using the words “…in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Our service has ended, go in peace.” And we all did the normal response at the end. I just mostly thought it was weird, wasn’t sure if it was illegitimate or not. If it is legit, that’s cool, if not, well then…

 

[ConstantineTG]

But it wasn’t just the incensing. It was leading the prayer in the novena, and ending it by using the words “…in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Our service has ended, go in peace.” And we all did the normal response at the end. I just mostly thought it was weird, wasn’t sure if it was illegitimate or not. If it is legit, that’s cool, if not, well then…

Again, it is not Mass. There is nothing wrong for any lay person to lead prayer. And why is it wrong to say “…in the name of…”??? Unless she is implying that she is giving a blessing. If not, then there is nothing wrong. I mean, its the same words we say when we make the sign of the cross.

 

[TrueLight]

Again, it is not Mass. There is nothing wrong for any lay person to lead prayer. And why is it wrong to say “…in the name of…”??? Unless she is implying that she is giving a blessing. If not, then there is nothing wrong. I mean, its the same words we say when we make the sign of the cross.

So this is a question, I had mostly in traditional parishes.

Do women lead the Rosary, novenas, prayer at a dinner with parish members? I’m trying to figure out if it is traditional folks’ opinions that a man should lead such things, outside of mass, maybe at a separate service.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So this is a question, I had mostly in traditional parishes.

Do women lead the Rosary, novenas, prayer at a dinner with parish members? I’m trying to figure out if it is traditional folks’ opinions that a man should lead such things, outside of mass, maybe at a separate service.

Well, I have seen women with veils and all lead prayers before and after Mass, either a public rosary group or a novena. Not sure if every traditionalist will agree with that, but I won’t take their word for it unless it comes from a FSSP or another traditional society priest.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

So this is a question, I had mostly in traditional parishes.

Do women lead the Rosary, novenas, prayer at a dinner with parish members? I’m trying to figure out if it is traditional folks’ opinions that a man should lead such things, outside of mass, maybe at a separate service.

This will depend on the parish and the individual members’ feelings.

As far as I know there is nothing precluding a woman from leading a prayer service in a traditional parish. We often have women leading the Rosary at mine. When we pray the Office, however, I’ve never seen a woman lead the congregation. That might be coincidence, I’m not sure. Those who lead the Divine Office are typically seminarians on route to become priests.

Edit: Since Constantine brought up traditional organizations, I should note that my parish is under the care of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. Maybe it depends on the society?

 

[CatholicLife]

I don’t see anything wrong with what that woman did. In Mexican culture it is usually a woman who prays in funerals and other events when a priest is not present.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Edit: Since Constantine brought up traditional organizations, I should note that my parish is under the care of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. Maybe it depends on the society?

Thanks. I just made that statement because there are those who would claim to speak for traditionalism but hold an extremist view.

 

[zab]

I have never seen incense being used to incense a statue. I have only seen it used to incense the Eucharist, the altar, the priest, the book of Gospels, the congregation , all places where Christ is present.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have never seen incense being used to incense a statue. I have only seen it used to incense the Eucharist, the altar, the priest, the book of Gospels, the congregation , all places where Christ is present.

Incense is not only for Christ but all things holy. This includes the images of God’s saints.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I have never seen incense being used to incense a statue. I have only seen it used to incense the Eucharist, the altar, the priest, the book of Gospels, the congregation , all places where Christ is present.

I have. Every religious article of mine that I’ve had blessed by a priest was also incensed.

 

[OraLabora]

But it wasn’t just the incensing. It was leading the prayer in the novena, and ending it by using the words “…in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Our service has ended, go in peace.” And we all did the normal response at the end. I just mostly thought it was weird, wasn’t sure if it was illegitimate or not. If it is legit, that’s cool, if not, well then…

How do you suppose communities of women religious and nuns do it without a priest? They have been doing Novenas and the Divine Office for centuries without a priest. In some such communities, a priest often only comes to the community chapel for Mass.

I can’t say about Novenas, I don’t know if they have any rubrics. However for the Divine Office (the Liturgy of the Hours) the rubrics do give a format to be used in the absence of a priest or deacon.

For example the format without a priest to close one of the major hours goes like this:

May the Lord bless us,
protect us from all evil and bring us to everlasting life.
– Amen.

Note that this is not giving a blessing, something a priest or deacon can do. In your example, clearly a blessing was not being given. And clearly it is OK for women to conclude the rite in this manner, given that women-only communities have been part of the Church for at least 1500 years, when the sister of St. Benedict, St. Scholastica, founded Benedictine nuns.

Definitely not an abuse in your case!!!

 

[PacoG]

I don’t see anything wrong with what that woman did. In Mexican culture it is usually a woman who prays in funerals and other events when a priest is not present.

Oh really? Please cite me some authority on this.

I live in the part of the United States with one of the highest population density of Mexican-Americans (South Texas). It is well over 90 percent down here. That is not my experience.

It varies from parish to parish and who are the personnel or organizations at the specific parish. In the absence of a priest, it’s usually the deacon. In the absence of the deacon, it depends on who is delegated that responsibility.

It is not “Mexican culture.”

 

[zab]

Incense is not only for Christ but all things holy. This includes the images of God’s saints.

Is this done more likely in Rites other than the Roman Catholic Rite?

 

[Chatter163]

So this is a question, I had mostly in traditional parishes.

Do women lead the Rosary, novenas, prayer at a dinner with parish members? I’m trying to figure out if it is traditional folks’ opinions that a man should lead such things, outside of mass, maybe at a separate service.

Women leading the rosary–or, by extension, novena prayers–is fairly common at traditional venues, where this is done from the pews, and there is nothing liturgical, para-liturgical or ceremonial about them. This also assumes that the priest is not there to lead them; otherwise he would do so.

In the example given by the OP, there was an incensation of St. Ann, which implies that the novena was conducted from the sanctuary (certainly not the pews), and I am willing to bet that the woman in question was vested in some time of garb, such as an alb. This would definitely offend traditional Catholic sensibilities, even if it were led by a male. Conversely, if there were a Legion of Mary novena, and members prayed from the pews, or even a daily rosary prayed by any group after Mass, that would be a common sight.

 

[TimothyH]

I actually do what the OP asks about.

I altar serve at Thursday evening Mass followed by a novena to St Jude with benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. A deacon always presides for the novena and we do display and venerate a relic of St. Jude Thaddeus, Apostle and Martyr. The deacon also blesses those present with the relic.

The liturgy or the novena is here if anyone is interested, and is almost verbatim the same liturgy used at the National Shrine to St. Jude, which think is in Chicago.

All but one deacon (we have six) asks me to incense as he blesses the congregation with the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance during the benediction. The deacon will have already charged the thurible and blessed the smoke. I’ll place the humeral veil about the deacon’s shoulders and then retrieve the thurible from the stand. As the deacon raises the monstrance, I’ll incense from a kneeler in front of and at the same level as the pews, but not on the sanctuary itself.

I have also been asked to lead some of the common prayers, where all pray together. I have never been asked to lead any of the responsorial type prayers such as the Invocation (Presider: That the light of faith will be brought to all people… Response: St. Jude intercede for us! etc.) or the divine praises, nor have I been asked to offer any of the ad-hoc prayers, where the deacon says, “Let us pray…” and then launches into his own prayer.

Note that I am not an acolyte, just an altar server. Women have served as altar servers in this position in the past at our parish.

I did close the service once, when the Haitian’s were holding a prayer service in our Chapel after the earthquake. The deacon advised me that he would be moving the monstrance to the chapel for the haitians. The deacon blesseed everyone, grabbed the monstrance with the humeral veil and headed for the chapel. I did the final prayer as he left, started singing Holy God We Praise Thy Name, grabbed the thurible and recessed up the main aisle.

I’m not sure this post has added anything to the conversation but there it is, from one who actually does what the OP asked about. I’d welcome feedback, especially from anyone who knows the rules surrounding what is appropraite and what is not in the context of novenas and bennediction.

-Tim-