question about Novus Ordo

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I’m sort of curious…if the Magisterium has final authority in the Church, why do some Catholics reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo? Aren’t all Catholics bound to obedience to the Church…?

Is it a generational gap thing or are there theological differences?
 
I’m sort of curious…if the Magisterium has final authority in the Church, why do some Catholics reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo? Aren’t all Catholics bound to obedience to the Church…?

Is it a generational gap thing or are there theological differences?
🤷 Because we’re all sinners, and people struggle with humility and submitting to authority.

The same reason many Catholics disagree with all sorts of Church teaching.
 
I’m sort of curious…if the Magisterium has final authority in the Church, why do some Catholics reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo? Aren’t all Catholics bound to obedience to the Church…?

Is it a generational gap thing or are there theological differences?
Its generational.
Liberal Catholics and Protestants as well tend to go their own way,
Having said that, I love the TLM and encourace anyone to attend if they have a chance. The beauty and deepness of the liturgy is something to behold.
 
Its generational.
Liberal Catholics and Protestants as well tend to go their own way,
Having said that, I love the TLM and encourace anyone to attend if they have a chance. The beauty and deepness of the liturgy is something to behold.
Wondered about that too for people who don’t understand Latin. Is there like a printed translation guide?
 
Wondered about that too for people who don’t understand Latin. Is there like a printed translation guide?
You can get one HERE for just $5.50. This is the same one they distribute at our local EF.

As to why people reject the Magisterium and still claim to be Catholic, I suppose its a mix of pride (they know better than the Church), bad catechesis (they don’t understand the magisterium’s role), and a subconscious Protestant worldview (each person makes up their mind on doctrine) imbibed from the surrounding culture. I do think its generational, but only because those who in former generations claimed to be Catholic while dissenting from magisterial teaching are now choosing to leave the Church altogether, which at least makes them more honest than their parents were and helps us live out Pope BXVI’s call for a smaller, purer Church.
 
You can get one HERE for just $5.50. This is the same one they distribute at our local EF.

As to why people reject the Magisterium and still claim to be Catholic, I suppose its a mix of pride (they know better than the Church), bad catechesis (they don’t understand the magisterium’s role), and a subconscious Protestant worldview (each person makes up their mind on doctrine) imbibed from the surrounding culture. I do think its generational, but only because those who in former generations claimed to be Catholic while dissenting from magisterial teaching are now choosing to leave the Church altogether, which at least makes them more honest than their parents were and helps us live out Pope BXVI’s call for a smaller, purer Church.
Hmm…I thought the dissidents were claiming to be more Catholic by holding on to tradition.
 
Hmm…I thought the dissidents were claiming to be more Catholic by holding on to tradition.
As all heretics do. Read Luther he thought he was restoring the ancient church not making a new one. Examples multiple right down to Pope Michael sitting in his moms basement. 😉
 
Don’t know about generational. You have to consider that at least 4-5 generations were impacted by Vatican ll. Many in my parents generation were aghast at the changes, some of my own generation also, although some of us embraced the changes with joy. Our own children kind of fell into a gap and consequently have had a more difficult time identifying as Catholic. We have one child on each side of that divide so far. I think the younger Catholics are the ones now pushing for the EF. Somehow they need the mystery of it, the grandeur, etc. I find that more fully in the NO. It is good that people can find what they need, when they need it within the Church. It does not have to be either/or, but can be a both/and (is that Martin Buber?) Maybe we need awe to come to intimacy.
 
Hmm…I thought the dissidents were claiming to be more Catholic by holding on to tradition.
But just holding on to tradition does not make one more Catholic. It also involves obediance to authority.
Many trads are the fundamentalists of the Catholic world. Go to Fisheaters forum and watch how they behave and hate that comes out of their mouths.
 
I’m sort of curious…if the Magisterium has final authority in the Church, why do some Catholics reject Vatican II and the Novus Ordo? Aren’t all Catholics bound to obedience to the Church…?

Is it a generational gap thing or are there theological differences?
If two men are sawing a tree down with a whipsaw, and one decides to leave because he thinks the whipsaw ineffective, does that make the whipsaw ineffective at cutting down trees?

Like all schisms and heresies, it is pride and disobedience on the part of the individual that causes them to disobey. The Magisterium, Tradition, and Scripture didn’t; they are as binding as ever because they are Christ’s words as ever.
 
Hmm…I thought the dissidents were claiming to be more Catholic by holding on to tradition.
1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”
 
Are people using the “low Mass” as an excuse to vent frustration for something larger, or do people really think “simplifying” the Mass is a sign of bowing to the pressure of modernity and mimicking Protestantism (gasp)?
 
Are people using the “low Mass” as an excuse to vent frustration for something larger, or do people really think “simplifying” the Mass is a sign of bowing to the pressure of modernity and mimicking Protestantism (gasp)?
First a technical point of terminology - “Low Mass” technically refers to the Mass said according to the pre-Vatican 2 missal (known as the “extraordinary form”) without incense or singing the Mass parts (there are other differences too, but these are the most noticeable). You are referring to the “ordinary form” sometimes styled the Novus Ordo.

Second, yes people do think that. It isn’t so much “simplifying the Mass” that is the problem, rather it is the way the Mass was simplified. Historically, the Mass grew organically. After the council a bunch of ‘experts’ decided to write a new missal - a very inorganic process which lead to massive changes which had no basis in Vatican 2’s call for a renewal of the Mass. Pope Benedict wrote beautifully on this topic.
 
…do people really think “simplifying” the Mass is a sign of bowing to the pressure of modernity and mimicking Protestantism (gasp)?
That’s exactly what they think. And it’s obvious when they talk they have never been to a Protestant worship service. I spent twenty years across the Tiber, so I can tell you empatically that the “Novus Ordo” or Ordinary Form, looks nothing like a Protestant worship service. They show a distinct lack of knowledge of the history of liturgy and Christian worship.
BTW, if you are interested, find a Diosean appoved TLM or EF in your area to attend at least once, you won’t regret it. 👍
 
That’s exactly what they think. And it’s obvious when they talk they have never been to a Protestant worship service. I spent twenty years across the Tiber, so I can tell you empatically that the “Novus Ordo” or Ordinary Form, looks nothing like a Protestant worship service. They show a distinct lack of knowledge of the history of liturgy and Christian worship.
BTW, if you are interested, find a Diosean appoved TLM or EF in your area to attend at least once, you won’t regret it. 👍
Since I don’t have a car, I just walk to the nearest parish (across the street 🙂 ). No Latin or fancy vestments.

Are there “high Mass” (?) services done in English?

And are there more signs I have to learn? There’s the sign of the Cross…then there appears to be another sign specifically when the Gospels are mentioned…
 
Are people using the “low Mass” as an excuse to vent frustration for something larger, or do people really think “simplifying” the Mass is a sign of bowing to the pressure of modernity and mimicking Protestantism (gasp)?
Is there a reason why so many parishes celebrate low Masses instead of high ones (with regards to the Paul VI Mass)?
 
Since I don’t have a car, I just walk to the nearest parish (across the street 🙂 ). No Latin or fancy vestments.

Are there “high Mass” (?) services done in English?

And are there more signs I have to learn? There’s the sign of the Cross…then there appears to be another sign specifically when the Gospels are mentioned…
  1. Assuming by “high Mass” you mean a Mass with chant, incense, nicer vestments, perhaps some (or all) Latin - then yes the Ordinary Form (i.e. “English” Mass) can incorporate all of these.
  2. Before the Gospels, in the Ordinary Form, the congregation says “Glory to you, O Lord” while making three small signs of the cross - one on the forehead, one on the lips, one on the heart.
 
That’s exactly what they think. And it’s obvious when they talk they have never been to a Protestant worship service. I spent twenty years across the Tiber, so I can tell you empatically that the “Novus Ordo” or Ordinary Form, looks nothing like a Protestant worship service. They show a distinct lack of knowledge of the history of liturgy and Christian worship.
BTW, if you are interested, find a Diosean appoved TLM or EF in your area to attend at least once, you won’t regret it. 👍
Some people are always going to be resistant to changes in the way they worship: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believer
 
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