Question about nursery and classes during mass

[St_Francis]

QUOTE=1ke;11394418]It does not have to be that way. But, I would approach it with finding out why it is the way it is. Particularly coming into the role new, you may not be aware of the history that factors in to why things have been set up as they are. Perhaps that is the only time particular teachers can teach. Perhaps they had issues with sleepy kids on Wednesday nights. Perhaps they had classroom space issues, or other issues.

I run the program so I know there is enough room, etc. I actually teach one of the classes during mass because I couldn’t find enough teachers! lol Those are the most difficult classes to find teachers for because everyone wants to go to the later Sunday mass, not the early 8 am one

Find out the “why” and also poll parents as to their opinion on changing it. I say this as having been in your position-- new to my parish and taking over the RE program 5 years ago.

To a certain extent I can see trying to work out a viable option for parents but I think that polling them is quite extreme. If I had to do what every parent wanted me to do I would have 40 different classes every week and be working 24/7 so I think that one option on Sunday and 3 options on Wednesday is very good compared to a lot of other parishes who only offer one time.

Why do they have classes for 3- and 4-year-olds? If they cut them out, there would be no problem with “needing” to do those classes during Mass because of a lack of space.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon,
One receives grace from attending Mass but not from attendance at nursery school during Mass. A sacrament occurs during Mass; one is in the Presence of Our Lord; and one is participating in the greatest prayer the Church can offer to God, true worship.

Really?

Interesting?

I guess I should restrict my prayer and worship life to mass only.

No more Rosary

No more singing.

No more reading the scriptures.

 

[St_Francis]

Really?

Interesting?

I guess I should restrict my prayer and worship life to mass only.

No more Rosary

No more singing.

No more reading the scriptures.

Would you do those things *instead of *going to Mass?’

 

[Jon_S_1]

Would you do those things *instead of *going to Mass?’

No I would not. But I have an obligation to attend mass a 3 year old does not so saying or inferring that they can’t receive graces by worshiping God and learning about mass and the faith in Sunday School is incorrect.

We receive God’s grace whenever we place God first in our life and choose him above ourselves.

The amount and effectiveness of certain things over others is debatable, and one who chooses to miss mass is choosing themselves above the church and God and closes off himself to God’s grace that would otherwise be present in the other activity.

A child does not sin by missing mass and is available to receive tremendous grace in either mass (where we should note they aren’t receiving the Eucharist ) or in Sunday School.

Perhaps you were not doing this, but let’s not put God in a grace restricting box.

 

[travissbeloved]

No I would not. But I have an obligation to attend mass a 3 year old does not so saying or inferring that they can’t receive graces by worshiping God and learning about mass and the faith in Sunday School is incorrect.

We receive God’s grace whenever we place God first in our life and choose him above ourselves.

The amount and effectiveness of certain things over others is debatable, and one who chooses to miss mass is choosing themselves above the church and God and closes off himself to God’s grace that would otherwise be present in the other activity.

A child does not sin by missing mass and is available to receive tremendous grace in either mass (where we should note they aren’t receiving the Eucharist ) or in Sunday School.

Perhaps you were not doing this, but let’s not put God in a grace restricting box.

Jon S I believe he’s trying to say that there are very special graces received during mass compared to any grace God may give you for going to a Sunday school. An elderly priest from our diocese told my mother that the more she brought her children to mass the more God would pull us into his love later in our lives when we may be struggling with our faith. There’s something very special about being in the presence of our Lord, even for a young child. I don’t want to facilitate parents keeping their children out of mass.

 

[St_Francis]

No I would not. But I have an obligation to attend mass a 3 year old does not so saying or inferring that they can’t receive graces by worshiping God and learning about mass and the faith in Sunday School is incorrect.

We receive God’s grace whenever we place God first in our life and choose him above ourselves.

The amount and effectiveness of certain things over others is debatable, and one who chooses to miss mass is choosing themselves above the church and God and closes off himself to God’s grace that would otherwise be present in the other activity.

A child does not sin by missing mass and is available to receive tremendous grace in either mass (where we should note they aren’t receiving the Eucharist ) or in Sunday School.

Perhaps you were not doing this, but let’s not put God in a grace restricting box.

First, I am not saying that people can not receive grace outside of Mass or by doing the things you mentioned.

What I am saying is that the graces received during Mass are *better. *To relegate children to something which is *less *is wrong. Christ Himself said to let the little children come to Him–how better than by taking the children into His Real Presence?

It is not uncommon to have child care during Protestant services, but their services do not have the Real Presence of Our Lord, they do not have Transubstantiation; they are not the highest form of worship, which involves sacrifce.

However, it is uncommon, indeed practically unheard of, to have childcare during The Sacrifice of the Mass. There is a reason for that.

 

[travissbeloved]

First, I am not saying that people can not receive grace outside of Mass or by doing the things you mentioned.

What I am saying is that the graces received during Mass are *better. *To relegate children to something which is *less *is wrong. Christ Himself said to let the little children come to Him–how better than by taking the children into His Real Presence?

It is not uncommon to have child care during Protestant services, but their services do not have the Real Presence of Our Lord, they do not have Transubstantiation; they are not the highest form of worship, which involves sacrifce.

However, it is uncommon, indeed practically unheard of, to have childcare during The Sacrifice of the Mass. There is a reason for that.

 

[Jon_S_1]

First, I am not saying that people can not receive grace outside of Mass or by doing the things you mentioned.

What I am saying is that the graces received during Mass are *better. *To relegate children to something which is *less *is wrong. Christ Himself said to let the little children come to Him–how better than by taking the children into His Real Presence?

It is not uncommon to have child care during Protestant services, but their services do not have the Real Presence of Our Lord, they do not have Transubstantiation; they are not the highest form of worship, which involves sacrifce.

However, it is uncommon, indeed practically unheard of, to have childcare during The Sacrifice of the Mass. There is a reason for that.

Most of the churches in my diocese (a pretty large one in Southern California) have Child care and Sunday School for kids who are not yet in kindergarten so I don’t think its unheard of.

While I agree that there is much grace for being in mass and I take my kids often, I guess where I disagree is in the discouragement of Sunday School for the young kids.

I wonder how many parents of young kids skip mass altogether and only come because of the childcare?

I know I hear over and over how people missed mass or parents went separately to care for the kids, and perhaps Sunday School fills a very practical need that is well within Canon Law.

So, while what you say has much merit, I can’t help wonder if pastorally, more people are in mass because of Sunday School type programs.

Once again speaking go per kindergarten and toddler type Sunday School.

 

[travissbeloved]

I don’t think anyone is discouraging Sunday school for young kids, we are just saying there are other times for it other than during mass. It is possible to have young children in mass. I have a newborn, a 1 1/2 year old and an almost 4 year old who all come to mass with my husband and I so parents who think they can’t handle it or who come separately or whatever it may be maybe just need to persevere in knowing that it will be tough in those younger years. Now I’m sure there are exceptions to this like a very severely autistic child who simply cannot sit through mass and so on but for the most part I’ve seen couples who have 5+ young children with them in mass and they seem to handle it as difficult as it may be because they value what their children are getting from mass.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I take my 3 4 and 5 year old. It’s not an issue of some who can. It’s an issue of many who won’t and you encouraging them, sorry but it’s not gonna help.

Take a mental note and a list of the kids you have now and parents. Then get rid of Sunday School during mass and come back and let us know how many still attend your parish.

As the NEW director of faith formation I don’t suggest you make your first pastoral decision to be altering the lives of parents with young children.

 

[travissbeloved]

There’s only 2 classes during mass and I find it extremely sad that the only reason a parent would put their kid in Sunday school would be for child care. If they truly cared about their child’s faith formation they would do the class before mass on Sunday or on Wednesday night. I’m sorry but my job is not to do what’s convenient for parents my job is to lead their children to Jesus Christ. Keeping them out of mass is not going to help at all. There’s a lot of people who leave parishes because they don’t agree with what a priest or deacon or whoever does when they come and change what they feel called to change and I have been praying about this since august so I care more about the child’s soul than the parent’s convenience.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What about the parent’s soul?

I just can’t picture PopeFrancis doing something like this.

There is no rule or canonical requirement either way, and I see no reason that the children learning and growing and the parents able to participate more effectively in mass as wrong in any way.

I urge you to consult with your pastor and the parents of your parish to get some feedback on this.

It seems like you are moving the wrong direction in my opinion, which of course is just my opinion.

Also by discussing with the parents you canshowthat you value their opinion. You don’t have to cater to their every whims but I bet you can gain some perspective.

 

[travissbeloved]

I have already spoken to our priest about it and he understands and wants to set up a meeting with the deacon and some of the teachers which I am absolutely open to. I agree that I need other people’s ideas and opinions and not just do whatever I want to do. However, the ultimate decision will probably come down to myself and the priest and I have to do what God is calling me to do. I guess I also constantly hear my mother’s voice in my head telling me about how much grace children get from mass. She brought us to daily mass every day of our lives until we got into high school so maybe it’s just a core part of my beliefs that my mother instilled in me.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I get that. I would just hate for you to do something that resulted in not just the kids being out of mass but also their parents. It’s not like your bending the church rules in having Sunday School, more like just placing your opinion on others.

One could say, that you can’t schedule any classes during adoration. At a parish with perpetual adoration that means there are no classes.

I will pray God helps you make the right decision for your parish.

 

[St_Francis]

I get that. I would just hate for you to do something that resulted in not just the kids being out of mass but also their parents. It’s not like your bending the church rules in having Sunday School, more like just placing your opinion on others.

One could say, that you can’t schedule any classes during adoration. At a parish with perpetual adoration that means there are no classes.

I will pray God helps you make the right decision for your parish.

The thing is, we cannot allow parents to hold their souls over our heads by threatening to stop attending Mass if there is no child care during Mass! Nor can we allow fear of that happening to cause us to continue or institute a practice which we think is not in the best interests of those in our care, in this case, the children.

And it’s not a question of “opinion,” it’s a question of truth. The truth is that we shoot for the beest good, and the best good is that we show how important Mass is by not having other activities during Mass. We show that Mass is more important than having fun in a playroom. We show that Mass is even more important than hearing Bible stories read or learning prayers.

We teach through our actions as well as what we say. If we say that Mass is the best thing in this world but then have child care during the Mass, what are we teaching?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The thing is, we cannot allow parents to hold their souls over our heads by threatening to stop attending Mass if there is no child care during Mass! Nor can we allow fear of that happening to cause us to continue or institute a practice which we think is not in the best interests of those in our care, in this case, the children.

And it’s not a question of “opinion,” it’s a question of truth. The truth is that we shoot for the beest good, and the best good is that we show how important Mass is by not having other activities during Mass. We show that Mass is more important than having fun in a playroom. We show that Mass is even more important than hearing Bible stories read or learning prayers.

We teach through our actions as well as what we say. If we say that Mass is the best thing in this world but then have child care during the Mass, what are we teaching?

If this is "truth " why has the church not mandated that all children attend mass?

Did the church fail to teach truth on this?

 

[travissbeloved]

If this is "truth " why has the church not mandated that all children attend mass?

Did the church fail to teach truth on this?

I agree, it is more of an opinion…but I also think that people have the right to bring their opinions into practice AS LONG AS it’s acceptable in Catholic teaching. In my heart I hear God telling me he wants his little children to be with him at mass AND to be at Sunday school before mass. That is going to be much more beneficial to them than skipping mass to be at a class.

 

[phil19034]

I agree, it is more of an opinion…but I also think that people have the right to bring their opinions into practice AS LONG AS it’s acceptable in Catholic teaching. In my heart I hear God telling me he wants his little children to be with him at mass AND to be at Sunday school before mass. That is going to be much more beneficial to them than skipping mass to be at a class.

When I was growing up, CCD was during Mass. Therefore, my siblings and I hardly went to Mass with my mother. We often wanted to skip CCD and be with the adults in Mass.

From my experience, having anything at the exact same time as Mass doesn’t work. Most parents are not going to attend Mass while their kids are in CCD and also attend Mass again before or after CCD.

My suggestion is to have CCD (or any kind of child faith training) on Sundays at a time when there is no Mass. And have a free Adult Faith Foundation class during the same time (maybe with coffee) so the parents have something to do while their kids are in CCD (other than errands). This would allow an easy way for our parents to learn more about their faith too.

NOTE: weekday CCD is always an option too

Good luck and God Bless

 

[travissbeloved]

When I was growing up, CCD was during Mass. Therefore, my siblings and I hardly went to Mass with my mother. We often wanted to skip CCD and be with the adults in Mass.

From my experience, having anything at the exact same time as Mass doesn’t work. Most parents are not going to attend Mass while their kids are in CCD and also attend Mass again before or after CCD.

My suggestion is to have CCD or any kind of child faith training on Sunday during a time in the morning with Mass is not going on. And have a free Adult Faith Foundation class during the same time (maybe with coffee) so the parents have something to do during while their kids are in CCD and so they can learn more about their faith too.

Good luck and God Bless

Having the parent class is a great suggestion, thank you!

 

[St_Francis]

Having the parent class is a great suggestion, thank you!

I LOVE the idea of parent classes and have been trying to get something like that set up at two different parishes… at one, “politics” was a problem, at the other, space. One day…