Question about obeying government authority

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The issue of government and its role in our lives has been a very confusing issue for me in regards to our Catholic faith, I was hoping some of you could she light on some of my questions and misunderstandings.

Where do we believe government’s get their legitimacy from? I assume we say God, but in what sense? in the sense that God has merely allowed the government to exist, or that he consciously wills it into existence? Western philosophy tends to say that a governments legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed (the people) how do we reconcile this and the sovereignty of God? Take the American revolution for example, did God will Britain’s defeat? If we are told to obey authority, should the Americans of that day not have revolted? and if so does the current government have any legitimacy in God’s eyes? I find this line of thinking extremely confusing. Are we to assume the victor in any conflict is the one that God has granted authority to?

And concerning laws… I understand we are to obey any laws unless they conflict with the laws of God which are supreme, but do these laws of God include the laws we consider natural laws, such as life liberty and property? are we entitled to be free and own property? like for example, If I lived in a totalitarian state, and one of their laws was that you could not leave the country, would I have to obey this law? it doesn’t seem to break any law of God, would I be held in bondage by that government?

in addition, what about unreasonable laws. For the sake of argument, lets say the government had a law that everyone had to run a mile at 3 pm everyday, that does not break any of God’s laws, so would we be forced to obey such a ridiculous law? As part of this climate change hysteria my own county has recently passed a law that says you cant leave your car idling for more than 3 minutes, its completely ridiculous, how is anyone supposed to keep track of this sort of thing and obey such an overbearing and intrusive law?

These are just some questions of mine related to God and government, thanks in advance for answers! and any links to related info would be appreciated.
 
_L said:
The issue of government and its role in our lives has been a very confusing issue for me in regards to our Catholic faith, I was hoping some of you could she light on some of my questions and misunderstandings.

Where do we believe government’s get their legitimacy from? I assume we say God, but in what sense? in the sense that God has merely allowed the government to exist, or that he consciously wills it into existence? Western philosophy tends to say that a governments legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed (the people) how do we reconcile this and the sovereignty of God? Take the American revolution for example, did God will Britain’s defeat? If we are told to obey authority, should the Americans of that day not have revolted? and if so does the current government have any legitimacy in God’s eyes? I find this line of thinking extremely confusing. Are we to assume the victor in any conflict is the one that God has granted authority to?

And concerning laws… I understand we are to obey any laws unless they conflict with the laws of God which are supreme, but do these laws of God include the laws we consider natural laws, such as life liberty and property? are we entitled to be free and own property? like for example, If I lived in a totalitarian state, and one of their laws was that you could not leave the country, would I have to obey this law? it doesn’t seem to break any law of God, would I be held in bondage by that government?

in addition, what about unreasonable laws. For the sake of argument, lets say the government had a law that everyone had to run a mile at 3 pm everyday, that does not break any of God’s laws, so would we be forced to obey such a ridiculous law? As part of this climate change hysteria my own county has recently passed a law that says you cant leave your car idling for more than 3 minutes, its completely ridiculous, how is anyone supposed to keep track of this sort of thing and obey such an overbearing and intrusive law?

These are just some questions of mine related to God and government, thanks in advance for answers! and any links to related info would be appreciated.
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St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologicae:

Question 104, regarding obedience:

“Man is subject to God absolutely in all respects both within and without, and therefore he is bound to obey Him in all things. But inferiors are subject to their superiors, not in all things, but in certain matters of limited range; and in those matters superiors are intermediaries between God and their subjects: in other matters the latter are subject immediately to God, by whom they are instructed through the natural or the written law.”

Therefore:
Reply to Objection 3, regarding obedience to princes (the State):

“Man is bound to obey secular princes in so far as this is required by order of justice. Wherefore if the prince’s authority is not just but usurped, or if he commands what is unjust, his subjects are not bound to obey him, except perhaps accidentally, in order to avoid scandal or danger.”

All authority is received from God. If an authority orders or supports a cause which is evil or harmful, it need not be obeyed, and may even be resisted. All power is limited to the purpose it serves, and cannot exceed that power lest it succumb to its own avarice, and become, in fact, a renegade and illegitimate regime ruling outside the law which is of God. The legimacy of all power comes from the One who is above, and therefore, cannot be excercised apart from that law or the appointed law of the land, in this case the U.S. constitution.

Hope this helps.
 
_L said:
Where do we believe government’s get their legitimacy from? I assume we say God, but in what sense? in the sense that God has merely allowed the government to exist, or that he consciously wills it into existence? Western philosophy tends to say that a governments legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed (the people) how do we reconcile this and the sovereignty of God? Take the American revolution for example, did God will Britain’s defeat? If we are told to obey authority, should the Americans of that day not have revolted? and if so does the current government have any legitimacy in God’s eyes? I find this line of thinking extremely confusing. Are we to assume the victor in any conflict is the one that God has granted authority to?
Click to expand...
There is story related in the OT about the army of Israel, in its conquest of the Promised Land, wondering whether or not God was with the army before a certain battle. An angel of the LORD appeared before them, and the army asked the angel who’s side he was (God was) on, “ours of theirs?” The angel replied “neither, but the LORD’s.” That is, God does not “take sides” but does all things in accordance with his good will and pleasure. We would certainly think God was on Israel’s side in this battle (and they did win), but the text makes it clear (at least in my opinion) that God has his own agenda; men, another.
 
_L said:
The issue of government and its role in our lives has been a very confusing issue for me in regards to our Catholic faith, I was hoping some of you could she light on some of my questions and misunderstandings.

Where do we believe government’s get their legitimacy from? I assume we say God, but in what sense? in the sense that God has merely allowed the government to exist, or that he consciously wills it into existence? Western philosophy tends to say that a governments legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed (the people) how do we reconcile this and the sovereignty of God? Take the American revolution for example, did God will Britain’s defeat? If we are told to obey authority, should the Americans of that day not have revolted? and if so does the current government have any legitimacy in God’s eyes? I find this line of thinking extremely confusing. Are we to assume the victor in any conflict is the one that God has granted authority to?

And concerning laws… I understand we are to obey any laws unless they conflict with the laws of God which are supreme, but do these laws of God include the laws we consider natural laws, such as life liberty and property? are we entitled to be free and own property? like for example, If I lived in a totalitarian state, and one of their laws was that you could not leave the country, would I have to obey this law? it doesn’t seem to break any law of God, would I be held in bondage by that government?

in addition, what about unreasonable laws. For the sake of argument, lets say the government had a law that everyone had to run a mile at 3 pm everyday, that does not break any of God’s laws, so would we be forced to obey such a ridiculous law? As part of this climate change hysteria my own county has recently passed a law that says you cant leave your car idling for more than 3 minutes, its completely ridiculous, how is anyone supposed to keep track of this sort of thing and obey such an overbearing and intrusive law?

These are just some questions of mine related to God and government, thanks in advance for answers! and any links to related info would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
One of the tasks of the government is to maintain order, also. I would say that we ought to obey the government unless the requirements for civil rebellion have been met (Just war theory from the CCC: 1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; 2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; 3. there must be serious prospects of success; 3. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.)

So, live with the 3-minute rule: if you go into a fast sort of shop, turn your car off in case it takes longer than you expect, but if you are just getting out of your car to put mail into the box (pillar?), you can leave it running.
 
An unjust law is no law at all. It is not worth the paper it is written on.

The first question that I would have is, “Is this man-made law valid?” If the law violates divine law or natural law, the man-made law is invalid. No one needs to obey an invalid law; in fact, you have a moral obligation to oppose it. That is why jury members have the right to judge the law, not just the facts. By a process called jury nullification jury members can refuse to uphold an unjust law.
 
“Where does this “Rule of Law” originate and derive its power?”

The source of the “rule of law” goes back to Divine Law. The Declaration of Independence uses the words, the “equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them.” What do these words really mean?

The ideas of the source of legitimate law were being formulated by the Catholic Church before the Magna Carta. (King John, before the Magna Carta, said that his mouth was the law!) Truth always goes back to the source of truth, which is public revelation, commonly known as the Holy Scriptures.

ANY LAW IN TRANSGRESSION OF DIVINE LAW IS INVALID! An unjust law is not law at all! Unjust laws are not worth the paper that they are written on! **Such unjust laws are to be defied because they do not exist. **There is no basis for them.

A recent example is Spain’s “laws” on marriages and adoptions. Pope Benedict has ordered citizens of Spain who work in adoption agencies to defy Spain’s new laws of illicit marriages and adoptions. Workers in adoption agencies are to refuse to fill out any paperwork or grant adoption of children to illicit and unnatural marriage unions. Spain’s new law disobeys natural law. NO HUMAN LAW AGAINST NATURAL LAW IS VALID!

There is Divine Law, Natural Law and Civil Law, in that order. Man only has control over civil law. Each type of law is separate and you cannot substitute one type of law for another type of law.
 
Need to distinguish between government authority and various forms of tyranny.

When does legitimacy stop and tyranny start?

Suggest reading Mark Levin’s book, “LIberty and Tyranny”

Get the book at www.marklevinshow.com
 
“Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You’ve stripped away our heritage,
You’ve outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question “Why?”
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!”
 
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