Question about ordination of women

[justme]

I do not believe that women should be ordained. I do not really have any opinion on this as I do not know enough to have an educated opinion on it.

When I lack the faculties to form my own opinion I go with what the Church teaches.

But I do have a question that will help me move along forming my opinion in this matter so that I just do not hold to what the Church teaches because it is what the Church teaches.

Now to my question.

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

 

[Richard320]

Start at the top: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

and keep the most-quoted passage in mind:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

 

[Anna_Claire]

All good questions that will never go away…regardless of Church teachings.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

All good questions that will never go away…regardless of Church teachings.

but even though sometimes we don’t understand Church teaching we still follow it and accept it.

 

[curlycool89]

I do not believe that women should be ordained. I do not really have any opinion on this as I do not know enough to have an educated opinion on it.

When I lack the faculties to form my own opinion I go with what the Church teaches.

But I do have a question that will help me move along forming my opinion in this matter so that I just do not hold to what the Church teaches because it is what the Church teaches.

Now to my question.

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

Women lack the essence of Maleness.

Yes, it’s Sex. A priest must be male to imitate the Father and Jesus who is the giver of grace (gifts). The priest gives the people the Sacraments.

Think about sex for a minute (not too long). In the sexual act, the male gives the female the gift (sperm in this case) in order to begin a new life. A priest must be male in order to intrinsically possess this maleness, the ability to give the gift. Females intrinsically lack this ability and it’s not something (not so far as I’m aware) that we can surgically implant or change. Before anyone jumps on me, I’m not saying this makes women inferior, it just means that we’re different. God created the biology, not me.

As I said in another thread, I’ve heard some theological hypothesis’ that a man who is a priest should be able to ordinarily perform sexually (ie. not be impotent or sterilized).

(I believe this was all from Theology of the Body. I don’t know if it was in Bl. JPII’s originals or if it was a Christopher West extension, but it makes total sense. Also, it’s a good reminder about why we take sex so seriously. Also, as I believe West pointed out, Women are actually a better representation of humankind because we all receive gifts of grace from God; it’s why the snake went after Eve).

 

[markomalley]

I do not believe that women should be ordained. I do not really have any opinion on this as I do not know enough to have an educated opinion on it.

When I lack the faculties to form my own opinion I go with what the Church teaches.

But I do have a question that will help me move along forming my opinion in this matter so that I just do not hold to what the Church teaches because it is what the Church teaches.

Now to my question.

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

I think meditating on the following passage may help a bit:

[BIBLEDRB]Eph 5:20-33[/BIBLEDRB]

Throughout history, males have been priests: those who offer sacrifice. This is true both in Judaism and in Christianity. The male, as illustrated in the Ephesians passage, above, is an icon of Christ. The woman, on the other hand, is an icon of the Church. From her womb springs forth life, to include His incarnation. From the Church, by way of the sacraments, life springs forth as well.

And so on…

There are differences, but I wouldn’t phrase it as an ontological “lack”, rather an ontological “difference.”

 

[ricofall]

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

The Church has no authority to ordain women as priest. Since Jesus never ordain women (and he could of) the Church will not.

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Nope, it is more of roles. Just like men cannot be nuns. However, this question is kind of loaded. For some reason, women try to be equal with men. However, men never try to be equal with women. Truthfully, men and women are not equals, they are different. We are apples, you are oranges. Either way, we are both round and fruit but we are not equal because we are made different from the beginning. I hope that does not sound like I am discriminating, it is not that men are above women or the other way around, we are just different from.

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

Women can receive holy orders too. There is no sexes when it comes to souls as far as I can tell. Can someone correct me on this one.

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

Since I stated that there is only one type of soul, I cannot answer this question. However it is stated in the bible numerous times that Jesus was sent to save us all. Not just men.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I do not believe that women should be ordained. I do not really have any opinion on this as I do not know enough to have an educated opinion on it.

When I lack the faculties to form my own opinion I go with what the Church teaches.

But I do have a question that will help me move along forming my opinion in this matter so that I just do not hold to what the Church teaches because it is what the Church teaches.

Now to my question.

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

It would be the first one because Jesus chose men. He did not tell us why but He did. We do not always know, nor may we ever know why God does what He does.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9.

From the document given by Richard320: Ordinatio Sacerdatalis:

“She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.”(1)

Plus as CurlyCool89 said, Jesus was male and the priest is standing in for Jesus. He acts in the “person of Christ” or persona Christi. We women can not do that because we are not males.

 

[Hokomai]

The papal statement linked to by Richard320 answers none of the OP’s excellent questions. It claims the example of Christ, and the tradition of the Church as reasons, and asserts that the example of Mary, mother of Jesus, shows that the Church does not regard women as of lesser dignity than men. But there is nothing in the document to answer the OP’s points, i.e:

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

Is it the actual physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

If the answer is the second one, that is that there is something intrinicly different between the male and female soul/spirit then wouldn’t that mean there are two human natures rather than one? And if there are two human natures then Jesus only had the male human nature so how could he be the savior of women?

 

[LilyM]

ricofall, no, women do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. This sacrament is only reserved for deacons, priests and bishops.

Women can make vows and enter religious life as nuns or sisters, as can men as brothers, monks or friars, but these are not cases where the person concerned receives the sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[Anna_Claire]

but even though sometimes we don’t understand Church teaching we still follow it and accept it.

That doesnt mean the questions go away.

 

[LilyM]

That doesnt mean the questions go away.

It does mean that we trust that the answers will come in the next life if not this one.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

OK, I am going to toake a stab at this!!

As a woman, *who at one time *supported the women’s ordination movement, for me this is very simple, now.

Jesus was a man- no if’s, and’s or but’s about it.
The priest, in certain instances, acts in persona Christi, where he (the priest) and Jesus become one and the same
Since I am not a man, I can never achieve that status.
I can try to model my behavior after His, and be “Christ-like”
but I cannot, ever, as a woman, act as the person of Christ.

When you really think about it, it seems pretty simple to me!

 

[ricofall]

ricofall, no, women do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. This sacrament is only reserved for deacons, priests and bishops.

Women can make vows and enter religious life as nuns or sisters, as can men as brothers, monks or friars, but these are not cases where the person concerned receives the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Well then, I stand corrected. I will have to research it because I thought my priest mentioned that when I was in one of his classes last month. Perhaps I did not hear right. Thank you

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus never explicitly said or taught that God is One God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yet you trust that this teaching is truth and don’t ask, Why isn’t God a quartet?

Jesus never explicitly laid out which books of the Old Testament and which writings of the New Testament would come together out of the thousands of pieces of writings which had been taught for centuries as ‘true teachings’. . .and came up with “The Holy Bible”.

And while a few may ask, “why didn’t this piece get included”, few Christians claim that the Bible is still open to editing.

The Church teaches that the Eucharist must be wheat bread and wine. . .not rice and grape juice, not pizza and beer. And while some claim that wine and bread are ‘problems’ (to alcoholics and celiacs for example), nobody goes around asking why we CAN’T just use milk and cookies etc.

So why is it that the Church’s teaching on the nature of God, and on the canon of Scripture, and on the elements of the Eucharist, are generally accepted without any question. . .

but the teaching on the Church’s lack of authority to ordain women**** keeps being yammered about?

The Church has been quite consistent.

The Church lacks any authority to teach other than truth.

It seems to me that people have ‘itching ears’. They’ll go along with what appears reasonable to them, and ONLY so long as it appears reasonable, and THEN they will ‘question’.

Which sounds fine on the surface until you start thinking about truth.

Sometimes truth does not sound reasonable at all.

God became Man, suffered and died for us SINNERS, and rose from the dead to save us from eternal damnation.

That isn’t REASONABLE., But hey the Church teaches it, because it’s true.

So the idea of accepting things as truths because they are ‘reasonable’ just doesn’t fly, does it? Truth doesn’t always look reasonable, or inviting, or politically correct or fashionable. . .
But TRUTH sets you free.

 

[Bballer32]

Well, first, the calling of the Priesthood was designed for men only by God.

Second, if you want scriptural evidence, we should look to the parallel of the OT Church (aka Israel) Deuteronomy 23:1 states that anyone whose “manhood” is cut off or not born with may not serve in the house of God.

Finally, women that say they hear the calling from God to the priesthood are either A)being told by false revelation B) hearing the call to sisterhood (aka nuns) or C) they are lying.

God Bless

 

[LegoGE1947]

ricofall, no, women do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. This sacrament is only reserved for deacons, priests and bishops.

Women can make vows and enter religious life as nuns or sisters, as can men as brothers, monks or friars, but these are not cases where the person concerned receives the sacrament of Holy Orders.

If Jesus would have wanted women priests would it not stand to reason that the first woman to have been ordained would have been His own blessed Mother? But He didn’t even do THAT!

 

[justme]

Most of the replies do not address the questions that I asked. Please respond to what has been asked in the first post of this thread or refrain from posting a reply. If you feel the need to reply to something other than the questions asked I suggest you start your own thread.

but even though sometimes we don’t understand Church teaching we still follow it and accept it.

All good questions that will never go away…regardless of Church teachings.

Yes, sometimes we don’t understand and yes, that does not mean the questions go away.

As I pointed out, in my first post that I understand this and adhere to what the Church teaches but that is not enough for me. I want to fully understand.

The Church has no authority to ordain women as priest. Since Jesus never ordain women (and he could of) the Church will not.

Those who try to make the argument from authority, that of it is this way becuase the Church teaches it or becuase the Church says that it can not do it, does not answer my questions.

Also note that it is none other than St Thomas Aquinas that states that the weakest argument is the argument from authority.

OK, I am going to toake a stab at this!!

As a woman, *who at one time *supported the women’s ordination movement, for me this is very simple, now.

Jesus was a man- no if’s, and’s or but’s about it.
The priest, in certain instances, acts in persona Christi, where he (the priest) and Jesus become one and the same
Since I am not a man, I can never achieve that status.
I can try to model my behavior after His, and be “Christ-like”
but I cannot, ever, as a woman, act as the person of Christ.

When you really think about it, it seems pretty simple to me!

Okay, now why?

In persona Christi means in the person of Christ. Not the body of Christ (in corpus Christi). Personhood and Body are two different things. If it is in the body of Christ then I can see only those sharing his body could do so but personhood is not dependant on the accidents of the body.

So this brings up what is intrinsically different between the person of a female and the person of a male and does that mean that their souls/spirits are different and if it does then how can Christ save females as well as males when the souls/spirits (and there by natures) are different?

 

[justme]

Well, first, the calling of the Priesthood was designed for men only by God.

Source? But that does not answer the questions asked.

Second, if you want scriptural evidence, we should look to the parallel of the OT Church (aka Israel) Deuteronomy 23:1 states that anyone whose “manhood” is cut off or not born with may not serve in the house of God.

Did not ask for scriptural evidence.

Finally, women that say they hear the calling from God to the priesthood are either A)being told by false revelation B) hearing the call to sisterhood (aka nuns) or C) they are lying.

None of these addressed what was asked.

I suggest that you go back and reread the first post and then respond again if you can address it.

 

[Bballer32]

What is it that makes a woman unable to be ordained?

See first response on my first post… that’s what is basically taught for the overall reason

Is it the acutal physical nature, not having male genitals? Not having the Y chromosome? Are either of these intrinsic to ordination?

See scripture that i quoted in first quote… this parallel is what helps us understand that God has his priesthood in both the tribes and the Church.

Or is there something different to the soul/spirit of a woman. Ordination makes an ontological change to the soul/spirit of the man when he is ordained. Does the woman’s soul/spirit lack something necessary for this change to occur?

To answer this one, i think someone already said it but Priests become “Alter Christo” or “one of Christ”. This basically means that since Jesus was a man, it is better to have a man in the place of Christ because Christ was a man.

Now, you may not think that this is the case but i’ve gotten hints from God about becoming a priest but i’m not 100% positive yet (Still got a couple years of High School left ) but the point is that i’ve asked this question to priests and seminarians and these are the majority of the answers of that i recieved