Question about Orthodox mass

[abucs]

Being in Thessoliniki the Sunday before and not finding a Catholic church saying mass I attended a Greek orthodox mass.

I will relate my experience and perhaps someone knowledgeable can advise if this is usual or correct for Greek / orthodox masses.

Firstly people entered the church and lined up to (kiss?) some flowers/ointment on a table in front of the altar before taking their seat. (Why?)

People also kissed the feet of saints displayed as pictures around the church as they entered and left the church (tradition?)

Most of the mass was sung by 4 men standing in front of the altar with the priest occasionally joining then and also singing. The priest would alternate between joining the singers and going behind the façade where the altar was (normal?)

The congregation didn’t seem to have any set time to stand but most would when the priest joined in the singing with his prayers. They seemed also to sit back down again sporadically like when they got tired rather than in a formalised ritual way (normal?)

Women brought loaves of bread which seemed to be blessed by the priest at consecration time and then the women collected the bread and presumably took them home. (the eucharist?)

The ‘normal’ eucharist handed out was like a cake with people lining up and receiving it and then some would leave the church or go and sit back down again but most would mingle around the priest in a very informal setting without any noticeable prayers by the priest to formally end the mass (correct/normal?). The mass sort of ended when the last person received the eucharist in the form of cakes. Sometimes the priest would give people scoops of cake and the parishioners would wander around the front of the alter like an informal morning tea.

Are these things normal for an (Greek) orthodox mass and if so how do orthodox people view the western Roman mass?

Thanks.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Being in Thessoliniki the Sunday before and not finding a Catholic church saying mass I attended a Greek orthodox mass.

It’s called Divine Liturgy, not Mass, as the word Mass is derived from the Latin and the Greek East doesn’t use Latin.

Firstly people entered the church and lined up to (kiss?) some flowers/ointment on a table in front of the altar before taking their seat. (Why?)

They were probably kissing an icon…it’s pretty typical in the Byzantine Rite

People also kissed the feet of saints displayed as pictures around the church as they entered and left the church (tradition?)

The pictures are icons and yes it’s normal to venerate them.

Most of the mass was sung by 4 men standing in front of the altar with the priest occasionally joining then and also singing. The priest would alternate between joining the singers and going behind the façade where the altar was (normal?)

yes, normal…some parishes have cantors/choirs that sing the parts of the congregation…the priest does have parts that he says outloud.

The congregation didn’t seem to have any set time to stand but most would when the priest joined in the singing with his prayers. They seemed also to sit back down again sporadically like when they got tired rather than in a formalised ritual way (normal?)

Yes, normal…standing is the norm in the East,it’s here in America/Canada that you will find pews in alot of Eastern Churches (protestant influence).

Women brought loaves of bread which seemed to be blessed by the priest at consecration time and then the women collected the bread and presumably took them home. (the eucharist?)

The prosphora (the loaves of bread) are baked by volunteers at home and brought to church to be used for the Eucharist. The leftover part that isn’t used is cut up and blessed at the end and distributed to everyone. It’s called antidoran.

The Eucharist is distributed using a spoon…the leftover bread is typically eaten plain without being mixed the the Blood.

Yes it’s seems that all these things are normal (again, variations occur depending on the parish and country/culture). As to what they think of the West, that varies also…I’ve read that a lot wonder why there are statues instead of icons and why there isn’t leavened bread.

Hope that helps a bit. I’m Ukrainian-Greek Catholic.

 

[bassmansteiny]

Cool, I’ve learned something new.

I’ve noticed at some Latin Rite Catholic Churches that people might kiss a statue so I assume it is the same thing veneration of a saint. I’ve never seen it in the Latin Rite Catholic Churches I’ve belonged to just some I’ve visited. I don’t have a problem with it though, probably more of a pre Vatican 2 thing because it was mostly older people I saw doing it and some young. My parish some of the women wear the black doyle over their heads, sorry I forgot the real name of it.

 

[Augustinian]

It’s called Divine Liturgy, not Mass, as the word Mass is derived from the Latin and the Greek East doesn’t use Latin.

That’s technically true of course, but we have Greek Catholic churches here in Pittsburgh advertising their “mass times” on a sign in front, and colloquially the Divine Liturgy is sometimes called a “mass”. Actually sometimes Protestant services are sometimes called “masses” by the general public, “where is his mass” is a query I just had about a Presbyterian colleague’s funeral. Of course technically, he didn’t have one.

 

[dochawk]

I’ve noticed at some Latin Rite Catholic Churches that people might kiss a statue so I assume it is the same thing veneration of a saint.

Not quite the same, but analogous. Icons are prayers; we seek to join that prayer, while paintings and statutes are images.

The priest would alternate between joining the singers and going behind the façade where the altar was (normal?)

While the priest comes out for the Little Entrance (with the Gospel) and the Great Entrance (with the gifts), the Deacon comes out and goes back in several times. I can’t be sure, but from your description, that sounds more like a deacon (but then, praxis varies widely, so . . .

hawk

 

[Rob2]

I’ve never seen it in the Latin Rite Catholic Churches I’ve belonged to just some I’ve visited. I don’t have a problem with it though, probably more of a pre Vatican 2 thing because it was mostly older people I saw doing it and some young.

So you say it’s probably “a pre Vatican 2 thing” .

I wonder what “a pre Vatican 2 thing” is .

Are these pictures below “a pre Vatican 2 thing” ?

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(Forgive the words on this one)
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[AndrewAxland]

Firstly people entered the church and lined up to (kiss?) some flowers/ointment on a table in front of the altar before taking their seat. (Why?)

It was almost certainly an Icon, with flowers around it. Kissing the Icon is standard practice on entering an Orthodox church.

People also kissed the feet of saints displayed as pictures around the church as they entered and left the church (tradition?)

Not unlike Roman Catholics kissing the feet of statues. which was until recently a very common practice.

Most of the mass was sung by 4 men standing in front of the altar with the priest occasionally joining then and also singing. The priest would alternate between joining the singers and going behind the façade where the altar was (normal?)

This was also the case in the Latin Rite until after Trent. Essentially no congregational participation and Mass performed solely by clerics behind the Chancel screen

The congregation didn’t seem to have any set time to stand but most would when the priest joined in the singing with his prayers. They seemed also to sit back down again sporadically like when they got tired rather than in a formalised ritual way.

Pretty much the same in the Latin Rite until pews became popular after Trent. People milled around attending to their private devotions, paying attention to the proceedings (which were behind the chancel screen) mostly during the Gospel, the Elevation and the Dismissal.

 

[AndrewAxland]

One last thing. Many of the differences you observed were introduced after Trent. Chancel screens were done away shortly thereafter, exposing the Altar and Sanctuary to unimpeded public view. And lay participation started to increase, with lay men being allowed to sing in the choir, and lay women eventually being tolerated to do so even though they technically were allowed to. And also the congregation reciting parts of the Mass, whereas formerly, they were restricted to an occasional “Et cum spiritu tuo”, “Amen” or “Deo gratias”.

Also, the “façade” you describe is called an Iconostasis. It a parallel development of the Latin Rite Chancel Screen.

 

[twf]

Kissing / touching statues as a sign of veneration is very widespread in some Latin Catholic cultures. I see it all the time. I do it myself all the time.

 

[twf]

Yes this is very much part of our Latin Catholic culture. Perhaps somewhat less common in North America due to Protestant influence. Here in Vancouver we have loads of Filipinos in our parishes, so tactile veneration of statues (and of priests after Mass!) is very widespread.

 

[bassmansteiny]

Did not mean that as an insult Rob2. I just thought that it might have been a very old tradition therefore maybe not practiced as much anymore, that is what I ment by Pre Vatican 2. Guess I was wrong, thanks for the clarification.

Like I said, I never had an issue with it. Just never remember seeing it at any CC parish I was a member of, only a couple I visited, and I’ve been a catholic for 42yrs. Then again my memory is not what it used to be.

Dementia does run in my family and at 42 years of age I am not sure if it is early signs of that or if it is just stress and anxiety. Have a lot of trials going on right now in my life that I am trying to deal with. So maybe it had happened in one of my old parishes and I just don’t remember as a kid. I love the saints, I ask for their intercession daily in my morning prayers.

 

[abucs]

Also, the “façade” you describe is called an Iconostasis. It a parallel development of the Latin Rite Chancel Screen.

Would it have originally been based on the Jewish structures of places of worship?

 

[Rob2]

Kissing / touching statues as a sign of veneration is very widespread in some Latin Catholic cultures. I see it all the time. I do it myself all the time.

I do it occasionally in church , usually when I have lit a candle .

I do it often at home .

 

[bassmansteiny]

Very cool, wish I saw it in the catholic church I attend. I love the saints, I have like 4 regularly in my prayers that I ask for their intercession. Saints Philomena, Thérèse de Lisieux, Maximilian Kolbe, John Paul II and St Joseph. My guardian Angel and Micheal the arc angel. Of course Mary!

 

[Vico]

… The mass sort of ended when the last person received the eucharist in the form of cakes. …

I suspect that you observed at the end was distribution of antidoron. The antidoron is not the Body and Blood of Christ. After Holy Communion occurs the Prayer of Thanksgiving, the Ambon Prayer, and the Dismissal. The antidoron is a symbol of the Theotokos (Blessed Virgin Mary).

 

[FrDcnJohn]

The ‘normal’ eucharist handed out was like a cake with people lining up and receiving it and then some would leave the church or go and sit back down again but most would mingle around the priest in a very informal setting without any noticeable prayers by the priest to formally end the mass (correct/normal?). The mass sort of ended when the last person received the eucharist in the form of cakes. Sometimes the priest would give people scoops of cake and the parishioners would wander around the front of the alter like an informal morning tea.

Most of the other points you have noted were covered elsewhere, but I wanted to clarify this. What you saw being passed around was most assuredly not the Eucharist. In the East (also the in the Western early church) we use leavened bread for the consecration. From the prosphora (loaf of bread which will be consecrated) a portion is removed called the lamb which will be consecrated and used for communion in the chalice only. The leftover bread is cut and called antidoron (not the Eucharist). Most likely you saw people recieving and passing around the antidoron and mixed wine after receiving the Eucharist at the chalice with a priest or deacon only.

We fast from all food and water from at least midnight before we recieve communion. After receiving communion at the chalice, we partake of antidoron with which we break our communion fast with this blessed bread as a cover. Also, it is common for the faithful to give this antidoron to visitors as a sign of fellowship, again it is not consecrated so this is permitted.

In the East, we are very protective of the Eucharist and sacred vessels. Only a priest or deacon with permission may give communion; never an extraordinary minister or layperson. In fact, only a subdeacons and above may properly touch the sacred vessels. After liturgy, typically a deacon will kneel at the altar to recieve a blessing to consume the remainders of the chalice and purify the vessels. As the body and blood are mixed in the chalice, we do not typically retain the gifts in the tabneracle as in the West.

Typing this on the run, please forgive any errors or grammar issues. But I wanted to correct the misconception ASAP. I would be mortified if I saw what you thought you saw so I wanted to correct quickly. I’ll check back in later to add some more to a few of your other questions.

Fr. Dcn. John

 

[FrDcnJohn]

Would it have originally been based on the Jewish structures of places of worship?

Absolutely correct. The Orthodox Church layout is based upon the original Jewish temple. The iconostasis represents the veil which surrounded the “holy of Holies”.

Fr. Dcn. John

 

[AndrewAxland]

Would it have originally been based on the Jewish structures of places of worship?

Not directly. In both the East and the West, it arose out of the movement to make the Liturgy a clerics-only affair with minimal lay participation:

The following wikipedia articles will give you some of the background and logic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconostasis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen

Pulpitum - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciborium_(architecture)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_screen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reredos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(liturgy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagioscope

And here’s a YouTube video of a pre-Tridentine Roman Rite Mass (the only thing missing is the curtains over the Chancel Screen):

That will give you a good idea of how the Mass evolved and the architectural development of church structures.

 

[abucs]

Thank you father, it did look a little non reverential. Perhaps I should have gone up and also received the antidoron in fellowship although there would have still been a big language barrier. I didn’t because I think it was said on this forum that eucharist is for those orthodox in a state of grace and it might be confronting to present oneself if not orthodox.

The people I did speak to seemed friendly and tried the best they could with English.

 

[FrDcnJohn]

Perhaps I should have gone up and also received the antidoron in fellowship although there would have still been a big language barrier.

You did exactly what you should have done. Ideally, they would have recognized you as a visitor and brought the antidoron to you. I’ll bet the language barrier had a great deal to do with this. Typically, in the United States, a visitor to an Orthodox parish is overwhelmed with hospitality…we take it seriously.

Fr. Dcn. John