Question about parish size

[NorthTexan88]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

 

[Contarini]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

I think the basic reason is the priest shortage, but also a lack of finances. I know that many bishops actually try to reduce the number of parishes, merging them with each other, and often run into resistance from parishioners.

As an Episcopalian, this is something that really bothers me about Catholic parishes–in Episcopal parishes people know each other and really function as a community. (At the same time, I recognize that there are benefits to large parishes as well.) And theologically/liturgically, I agree with the Orthodox that there should be one celebration of the Eucharist on a Sunday in one place–the practice of celebrating multiple Masses effectively creates multiple schisms within what should be one local body of believers.

Edwin

 

[Corki]

There are a lot of trade-offs. I am in a smaller parish - about 500 families. That’s about 1100 parishioners. At that size, it is hard to do a lot of the things that larger parishes do. For example, our CCE program has just one choice of day; we have very limited music for our Masses; we can only have Confirmation every other year (mimimum is 25 for the Bishop to come); we have no formal RCIA schedule, etc.

There are financial concerns too, of course. When you split a parish, you multiply the paid staff, the administrative costs, the cost to operate the physical plant (building maintenance, utitilies, grounds,), etc.

 

[didymus]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

I’m in Albany, NY diocese which if trends continue will have no priests by 2040.
In the meantime parishes are being closed and the survivors formed into “clusters”. I hadn’t thought of them as “mega-churches” but maybe you are right.

My own parish used to be three (now with just one priest) and for several years maintained three churches but finally had to consolidate. Two of the churches were absolutely beautiful but old and impossible to maintain.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

does your diocese have enough priests for this?

 

[Contarini]

There are a lot of trade-offs. I am in a smaller parish - about 500 families. That’s about 1100 parishioners.

That would be a megachurch by Episcopal standards. The largest parish in my diocese (admittedly I live in a small diocese with very small parishes even by Episcopal standards) has under 200 members, I think. Mine has about 40-50 on a good Sunday, and while we’re small, we’re far from the smallest in the diocese (the smallest has 6 members!).

I find it hard to think of an 1100-member parish church as being so small as to have “disadvantages” for that reason !

Edwin

 

[NorthTexan88]

does your diocese have enough priests for this?

I’m really not entirely sure? For some reason I never thought about a priest shortage.

So in regards to Albany or other diocese that are lacking Priests, will those from other countries around the world come and fill the spaces? I have met several Indian and Asian priests as of late.

 

[I_Thirst]

I’m really not entirely sure? For some reason I never thought about a priest shortage.

So in regards to Albany or other diocese that are lacking Priests, will those from other countries around the world come and fill the spaces? I have met several Indian and Asian priests as of late.

Could be. America is viewed by some as a missionary field. We need prayers and more priests!

 

[NorthTexan88]

Could be. America is viewed by some as a missionary field. We need prayers and more priests!

I agree, in my time as an Anglican I came to find especially how the Africans view America and Europe needing to be evangelized. I think it’s true

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m really not entirely sure? For some reason I never thought about a priest shortage.

So in regards to Albany or other diocese that are lacking Priests, will those from other countries around the world come and fill the spaces? I have met several Indian and Asian priests as of late.

for one think I am sure those countries need all the priest they can raise, and in the second place, in dioceses where foreign-born priests have been invited to help remedy a shortage of homegrown priests- Chicago comes to mind–parishioners have been vocal in their objections.

 

[MarkBrown]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

The Church can not support many smaller size parishes. Why?

1. Not enough priests and though people are excited about an uptick in vocations in certain areas, the average age of priests in the States will continue to go up. In our diocese there is no retirement. We have priests in their 80’s.
2. Finances. Catholics do not tithe money. Period. Why? To this former protestant there is no excuse. I tithed even when I was unemployed as a protestant and have done so as a Catholic. Our parish is the same size as a local Baptist “mega-Church”. Where we tithe a little over $4k the Baptist will bring in $100k per week. They have a Budget around $10million a year. Same size. Different vision I guess. And no, Baptists are not richer than Catholics. We have several millionaries in our parish. Multiple homes, vacations in Europe for 1-2 months. Colorado ski trips etc. while I search for grant money to fix the sound system, roof, bell etc,
3. probably not enough people with a pioneer spirit to establish newer smaller parishes. Seems, again, a different vision.

We have a presbyterian Church in the area. It has 500 members. Has planted or spun off 2 additional churches. The pastor and laity groom young men to be pastors, deacons, elders. When the Church passes 500 in active membership, they start a new parish using a core of laity and the men they had discipled for years.

In our diocese, Church growth does not seem factored into a vision or plan. It is all about maintaining what we have…a bunker mentality. An attitude I saw all too often in Continuing Anglicanism.

 

[MarkBrown]

There are a lot of trade-offs. I am in a smaller parish - about 500 families. That’s about 1100 parishioners. At that size, it is hard to do a lot of the things that larger parishes do. For example, our CCE program has just one choice of day; we have very limited music for our Masses; we can only have Confirmation every other year (mimimum is 25 for the Bishop to come); we have no formal RCIA schedule, etc.

There are financial concerns too, of course. When you split a parish, you multiply the paid staff, the administrative costs, the cost to operate the physical plant (building maintenance, utitilies, grounds,), etc.

Corki, to protestants who convert this thinking is like trying to understand an alien concept.
Protestant Churches of your size are considered very large. Anglican, Epsicopalian, Baptist, Methodist etc etc churches much smaller than yours are not hindered by lack of finances. An Anglican plant here in Pensacola is only 250 active members. They bought a building and rebuilt it into a church. They have a staff of 3 paid clergy, office staff of 2, maintain a seperate building for an office, numerous p/t staff. The Rector is paid in excess of $50k and none of the other clergy are paid poorhouse wages. Neither are the staff.

A small presybertian church, 70 families, has two paid clergy, a building, office staff, operate a very respectable Christian School, which they built and have maintained, send out missionaries etc. Their clergy compensation package, while not as large as the Anglican is very good for the area. All these protestant ministers have families with 3+ children each. I know the presbyterian package is good, two weeks ago they offered me a job as a non-ordained minister. (unique group who will be Anglican in a few years and hopefully Catholic soon thereafter). to help them develop their liturgy.

I can cited more examples and yes there are protestant churches that are very small and their pastors are bi-vocational. The point being, why is the Church like this? For 500 years protestants have given a good track record of church planting, paying staff livable wages, having enough vocations. Are there problems in protestantism, of course. But there are things we can learn from our protestant brothers and sisters that will make the Church stronger.

 

[puzzleannie]

I can cited more examples and yes there are protestant churches that are very small and their pastors are bi-vocational. The point being, why is the Church like this? For 500 years protestants have given a good track record of church planting, paying staff livable wages, having enough vocations. Are there problems in protestantism, of course. But there are things we can learn from our protestant brothers and sisters that will make the Church stronger.

they tithe

Catholics can have whatever kind of parish they want if the are willing to embrace stewardship spirituality and tithing to the extent our brothers and sisters do. We have 3 Catholic parishes in town each with about 3000 families, and 1 each of the other mainstream denominations, usually one English and one Spanish in some cases, with 300-500 families. These have beautiful churches, education and community buildings, do missionary outreach and run many charity apostolates, adult education, evangelize actively, have vibrant youth ministries, at least 3-4 paid pastoral staff members, whose pay is on par with other professionals, not a pittance or poverty level like the Catholic parishes, all of whom are raising families at a good though not ostentatious standard of living, plus good administrative staffs.

The 3 CAtholic parishes support only one school, but there are at least 4 flourishing Christian or denominational schools in town, in an area where 30% or less of the population identify as something other than Catholic.

 

[Hboggs]

we can only have Confirmation every other year (mimimum is 25 for the Bishop to come); we have no formal RCIA schedule, etc.

.

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Somehow this 25 minimum is troubling. Our Bishop visits EVERY parish at least once a year for confirmation and we have a very large (geographically speaking) diocese.

 

[thistle]

I was wondering the other day, why are our parishes so big? You could take our parish and split it up into 4 separate parishes scattered throughout the area and have 1,000 people in each one and reach a larger area and be more “small” and intimate. Why do Catholic Parishes not do this more often. It seems to be they are more mega-churches than smaller close knit ones. Is there a reason for this…financial…etc…?

Our parish has 14,000 people. That’s why we have 10 Masses every Sunday to accommodate an average 80% Mass attendance.

 

[Contarini]

I’m really not entirely sure? For some reason I never thought about a priest shortage.

So in regards to Albany or other diocese that are lacking Priests, will those from other countries around the world come and fill the spaces? I have met several Indian and Asian priests as of late.

That is certainly happening. There is an assistant priest from India at one of the Catholic churches down the road from me, assisting the elderly pastor.

Edwin

 

[Bobby_Jim]

That is certainly happening. There is an assistant priest from India at one of the Catholic churches down the road from me, assisting the elderly pastor.

Our diocese has been “importing” or “borrowing” a lot of priests from other countries - mostly from Mexico and Colombia, and also some from Asia. While it helps staff the parishes, sometimes you get the feeling that the bishops in these other countries are only letting their less talented guys come here, or the guys that have been difficult to deal with, or something. Just a feeling I get, and I certainly have also met a good numbrer of very good foreign-born priests; I am speaking more of the ones that have come into my current diocese in the last 5-10 years. “Outsourcing” priestly vocations to other countries may be a stop-gap measure but it’s not a great solution long-term.