Question about participation at TLM

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At the TLM I’ve been attending, the people sing the Gloria, credo, and Pater Noster. Every few weeks I’m in a different city and the congregation at that TLM does not sing or even speak the words of those prayers. Twice someone has hissed at me to shut up for saying them quietly to myself. After the mass last Sunday he screamed at me in the parking lot saying this is something that must never be done. I’ve been told that my parish follows the 1962 missal and the one in the other city does not. It isnt’ta schismatic mass; it’s said by a monk with full approval of the bishop. The monk said they’re using g the older missal but it’s fine if I want to pray the prayers, but if everyone is silent during them and people are giving me the stinkeye for praying aong with the choir, I’d rather just go with the flow.

What is the situation? Why the difference and want is the source of the ire? I want to do what’s right. Can someone explain this?
 
In the final months of Pope Pius XII’s pontificate, a document know as De Musica sacra was published by the Sacred Congregation for Rites. In this document it talks about ways of participating. In sections 30 - 34 it speaks about what are some times referred to as dialog Masses. With regard to the various degrees of participation we would look to section 31, which states:
  1. A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.
There are four degrees or stages of this participation:
a) First, the congregation may make the easier liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest: Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Deo gratias; Gloria tibi Domine; Laus tibi, Christe; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo;
b) Secondly, the congregation may also say prayers, which, according to the rubrics, are said by the server, including the Confiteor, and the triple Domine non sum dignus before the faithful receive Holy Communion;
c) Thirdly, the congregation may say aloud with the celebrant parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei;
d) Fourthly, the congregation may also recite with the priest parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion. Only more advanced groups who have been well trained will be able to participate with becoming dignity in this manner.
So why the difference? Some communities, such as your’s, use a dialog Mass format where as others are more a traditional silent format (i.e. choir and servers give voice for the people). The dialog Mass was a precursor to the participation of the congregation in the ordinary form we see today. Because of that, some communities do not like the dialog Mass format. They see it as somewhat of a bridge to the new form of the Mass.

What would I do? Follow the lead of the community. If they don’t have a dialog Mass then I would remain silent as it’s not worth antagonizing people at worship.
 
At the TLM I’ve been attending, the people sing the Gloria, credo, and Pater Noster. Every few weeks I’m in a different city and the congregation at that TLM does not sing or even speak the words of those prayers. Twice someone has hissed at me to shut up for saying them quietly to myself. After the mass last Sunday he screamed at me in the parking lot saying this is something that must never be done. I’ve been told that my parish follows the 1962 missal and the one in the other city does not. It isnt’ta schismatic mass; it’s said by a monk with full approval of the bishop. The monk said they’re using g the older missal but it’s fine if I want to pray the prayers, but if everyone is silent during them and people are giving me the stinkeye for praying aong with the choir, I’d rather just go with the flow.

What is the situation? Why the difference and want is the source of the ire? I want to do what’s right. Can someone explain this?
It sounds to me as though the vetus ordo Mass you are attending in the first city, where you are able to vocalise the prayers and sing, is like the one I celebrated when I was the priest responsible for the community who had petitioned for the indult Mass in my diocese many years ago.

With my bishop’s support, I went in explaining the Mass could only be done as a dialogue Mass and that the prayers had to be audible and with them engaged in the rite and responding. Although it was not what they wanted and a bit of a struggle, we were able to make good progress.

Using the insights gleaned from the critiques of the Council Fathers in Sacrosanctum Concilium, they were exposed to many critical concepts about the liturgy and about the need of the people to have full, conscious and active participation in their experience of liturgy. Most, after a time, would follow the liturgy in the missals we provided. The people, with time, were singing and were making the Latin responses. Having taught Latin, I was able to coach them after Mass.

With some of the people, the effort bore fruit; not so with others.

I am very sorry that this person treated you in such a dreadful way; that is unconscionable. Obviously, if he is actually hissing as well as screaming at you and/or others, he is demonstrating disturbed or unbalanced behaviour and care should be taken.

I urge you in the strongest terms to communicate what has happened to the chancery of the diocese and to provide them with information about the group and what you observe, especially if there are those acting against the direction in which the monk is trying to lead this grouping of the faithful. You may contact either directly the bishop, the vicar general, the vicar for clergy, or the director of liturgy.

It is very important for the officials of the diocese to understand the make up of groups petitioning for the vetus ordo and if there are problems arising or the needs for remedial liturgical catechesis or other resources for assistance that the monk trying to help them might need.

In so far as you can, I would urge you to be a friend to the monk who is trying to help these people. I am glad he is encouraging you. I remember my time as a chaplain for a group like this and it can really be very challenging indeed.

If you can pray the liturgy with the celebrant in the manner of which you speak and in the manner he supports without violent reaction from these people, then your presence could be a blessing for you and the monk. Hopefully he is wanting to lead the group toward a more active participation as you see in the other group. Your ability to explain the behavior of the people to the chancery, though, can also be of invaluable help, depending upon the remedial action or help that maybe needed.

God bless you. I will pray for you and for the priest. I am sorry again such a thing happened. Hopefully the other group you are attending will have a better makeup of participants.

don Ruggero
 
I am very sorry that this person treated you in such a dreadful way; that is unconscionable. Obviously, if he is actually hissing as well as screaming at you and/or others, he is demonstrating disturbed or unbalanced behaviour and care should be taken.

I urge you in the strongest terms to communicate what has happened to the chancery of the diocese and to provide them with information about the group and what you observe, especially if there are those acting against the direction in which the monk is trying to lead this grouping of the faithful. You may contact either directly the bishop, the vicar general, the vicar for clergy, or the director of liturgy.

In so far as you can, I would urge you to be a friend to the monk who is trying to help these people. I am glad he is encouraging you. I remember my time as a chaplain for a group like this and it can really be very challenging indeed.

don Ruggero
Thanks. There are a number of cranks, conspiracy theorists, and rabid anti-semites at the TLM in the other city. I spent most of my life there and, for this reason, rarely attended the TLM. I moved to another pew and things went fine. I caught on that in this rubric the faithful assist in silence so that’s what I did. Mortifying my will in matters of personal preference is more beneficial than getting my way in matters of worship. In my new city the Traditionalist community is warm and welcoming rather than irritable and suspicious of outsiders. I’m blessed to have this wonderful parish and will continue to be a part of it.

Why report it to the bishop? The Traditionalists in that city have their community. It’s always been like this. There are many good people in this community but they’re far less vocal than the cranks. I don’t want to expose them to any hostile elements within the chancery.

The monk and I have been friendly for 27+ years. When my children were younger, he’d come to the house for dinner. My wife and I divorced in 2001 and I moved to Chicago. Since then my job took me to another nearby city. Since then, he and I have been in loose contact but we remain on good terms. I pray for him (and all priests) daily.
 
So why the difference? Some communities, such as your’s, use a dialog Mass format where as others are more a traditional silent format (i.e. choir and servers give voice for the people). The dialog Mass was a precursor to the participation of the congregation in the ordinary form we see today. Because of that, some communities do not like the dialog Mass format. They see it as somewhat of a bridge to the new form of the Mass.

What would I do? Follow the lead of the community. If they don’t have a dialog Mass then I would remain silent as it’s not worth antagonizing people at worship.
Precisely. This was the third or fourth time I’d attended the Mass at that parish. The monk explained it to me after Mass at Christmas time. Since then, I’ve watched the people in the pews and try to follow what they do. The man who upbraided me was directly in front of me. I was saying the prayers but in a barely audible fashion. He made such a loud fuss that people looked at us. I moved to another pew and prayed the payers in silence without even moving my lips. I greatly prefer the dialog form of TLM, but if this community uses the older rubric, I’ll follow that (now that I have a better understanding of it.) Even if it’s not my preference, I’ll go with the norm of the community. I derive more spiritual benefit from mortifying my will in matters of personal preference than I would from doing it my way.

Thanks.
 
In the final months of Pope Pius XII’s pontificate, a document know as De Musica sacra was published by the Sacred Congregation for Rites. In this document it talks about ways of participating. In sections 30 - 34 it speaks about what are some times referred to as dialog Masses. With regard to the various degrees of participation we would look to section 31, which states:

So why the difference? Some communities, such as your’s, use a dialog Mass format where as others are more a traditional silent format (i.e. choir and servers give voice for the people). The dialog Mass was a precursor to the participation of the congregation in the ordinary form we see today. Because of that, some communities do not like the dialog Mass format. They see it as somewhat of a bridge to the new form of the Mass.

What would I do? Follow the lead of the community. If they don’t have a dialog Mass then I would remain silent as it’s not worth antagonizing people at worship.
A wise move IMO.
 
Thanks. There are a number of cranks, conspiracy theorists, and rabid anti-semites at the TLM in the other city. I spent most of my life there and, for this reason, rarely attended the TLM. I moved to another pew and things went fine. I caught on that in this rubric the faithful assist in silence so that’s what I did. Mortifying my will in matters of personal preference is more beneficial than getting my way in matters of worship. In my new city the Traditionalist community is warm and welcoming rather than irritable and suspicious of outsiders. I’m blessed to have this wonderful parish and will continue to be a part of it.

Why report it to the bishop? The Traditionalists in that city have their community. It’s always been like this. There are many good people in this community but they’re far less vocal than the cranks. I don’t want to expose them to any hostile elements within the chancery.

The monk and I have been friendly for 27+ years. When my children were younger, he’d come to the house for dinner. My wife and I divorced in 2001 and I moved to Chicago. Since then my job took me to another nearby city. Since then, he and I have been in loose contact but we remain on good terms. I pray for him (and all priests) daily.
Well, as one who worked in a chancery, it is not a matter of hostile elements, it is always a matter of being aware of what a situation is.

I am glad you have the situation you describe in your new city and I wish you well in that circumstance. What you describe of the other place is more my universal experience with those who have petitioned for provision of the vetus ordo since the time of the creation of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, now so very many years ago.

May God’s blessing be upon you.
 
Five levels of vocal participation in the Dialogue Mass were outlined in De Musica Sacra, none of which were mandated. Latin Mass communities implement these to varying degrees. My own FSSP parish uses the Dialogue Mass only for one Low Mass on Sunday; at all other Low Masses, Sunday and weekday, only the servers respond. This is the pastor’s choice. At High Mass, the people join the choir in singing the responses and the simpler Mass settings, if they are able.

The OP mentioned people singing the Pater Noster. This should never take place in an EF Mass. They only sing the response *Sed libera nos a *malo, as indicated in the missal. Not even the choir or servers sing the *Pater Noster in its entirety. De Musica Sacra *did not alter that.
 
It sounds to me as though the vetus ordo Mass you are attending in the first city, where you are able to vocalise the prayers and sing, is like the one I celebrated when I was the priest responsible for the community who had petitioned for the indult Mass in my diocese many years ago.

**With my bishop’s support, I went in explaining the Mass could only be done as a dialogue Mass and that the prayers had to be audible and with them engaged in the rite and responding. Although it was not what they wanted and a bit of a struggle, we were able to make good progress. **

Using the insights gleaned from the critiques of the Council Fathers in Sacrosanctum Concilium, they were exposed to many critical concepts about the liturgy and about the need of the people to have full, conscious and active participation in their experience of liturgy. Most, after a time, would follow the liturgy in the missals we provided. The people, with time, were singing and were making the Latin responses. Having taught Latin, I was able to coach them after Mass.
Doesn’t this line of thought only reflect one side of the debate about what “full, conscious, and active participation” means? I am sure that you are aware that it is strongly held among traditionalists that such criteria do not require vocalizing responses. And if this is the case, I am curious as to why you were willing to offer the indult Masses for the people, yet only with the condition that it be offered in a manner that you believed to be more consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium? I am not old enough to have experienced this for myself, but I have been reading up on the tumult of the 70’s and 80s and the near disappearance of the Traditional Latin Mass. From what I understand, one of the primary purposes that indult Masses were permitted by Pope St. John Paul II was for the benefit of those attached to the old rites. What then would be the purpose of altering, even licitly, the manner in which those faithful, who longed for the Mass of their youth, were familiar with - namely a Mass where the servers and/or choir makes the reponses? If they wished to embrace the interpretation of “full, conscious, and active participation” that you espouse, would they not have simply attended the Novus Ordo Missae?
 
I agree with observing and following what the rest of the congregation is doing. I have attended three different parishes with the EF and they all have their different nuances. I always tend to seat myself near the back of the church (I tend to recite prayers under my breath as well, it helps me focus). I don’t think you are ever going to get rid of the TLM “cranks”, it’s best just to steer clear. I recall at the EF mass I cantored at, the priest encouraged folks to chant the “Pater Noster” and directly cited Pius XII from the pulpit. Following mass, the self-titled “Latin Mass coordinator” went into the sacristy and screamed in Father’s face that he was doing the mass wrong.
 
I guess I’m just stunned that anyone would scream out at someone right after getting out of church. How shameful.
 
Don Ruggero,

I do not understand why said that "With my bishop’s support, I went in explaining the Mass **could only be done as a dialogue Mass **and that the prayers had to be audible and with them engaged in the rite and responding ?

Our FSSP parishes do not necessarily follow that rule of thumb. As I understand the TLM, there are no rubrics for the laity so it becomes a matter of local custom. Some follow with the laity responding with the Altar boys and some do not. The Pater Noster is reserved for the Priest as is the Agnus Dei.

Just curious, that’s all :confused:
 
Doesn’t this line of thought only reflect one side of the debate about what “full, conscious, and active participation” means? I am sure that you are aware that it is strongly held among traditionalists that such criteria do not require vocalizing responses.
I’m aware of the line of thought on both sides. It has no aspect of “debate” to me, however. The Council Fathers are quite clear and they are dispositive. I used to teach a course based on Sacrosanctum Concilium and spent a good amount of time lecturing on the distinction between participatio actuoso (which the Council Fathers use) and what one could term participatio activo…by which one could attempt to typify a more purely external busyness that some people would like to ascribe to the aftermath of the reform of the liturgy.

In other words, I take a strong position against those who advocate that what the Council Fathers called for is purely external activity. It assuredly wasn’t – and those of us who knew and worked with Council Fathers know that quite well.

That said, participatio actuoso positively cannot be understood as merely interior activity, as some try to argue. It is to have external extension and manifestation. The participation of the laity in the rite was no longer to continue in the way it had been before the Council, because it was not adequate in the judgement of the bishops of the world. The Council Fathers are extremely clear in Sacrosanctum Concilium:
*30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.
  1. The revision of the liturgical books must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people’s parts.*
    How people were participating in the Mass needed to be changed in the judgment of every Catholic bishop at the Council, less four. Sacrosanctum Concilium’s critique of the liturgy indicates every part of the liturgy needed reform and restoration – and the document was passed by a vote of 2147 to 4.
And if this is the case, I am curious as to why you were willing to offer the indult Masses for the people, yet only with the condition that it be offered in a manner that you believed to be more consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium?
I did not say I was willing. I was compliant. There is a difference. The matter rested entirely with the bishop. The bishop had received a petition in view of what was asked for by Ecclesia Dei. He wished to grant the petition. A number of priests otherwise available felt uncomfortable either because of the language alone or the complexity of the rite or a combination thereof. Those older than me wished to be excused on account of their age and already sufficient workload.

I was a teacher of Latin, so I could not feign a linguistic inability. I was a professor of liturgy, so I could not plead a problem relative to the rubrics; I knew them quite well. But I had no interest in offering Mass according to the vetus ordo. Still, this was a conversation that was going one place – and His Excellency and I both knew it. As it happened, his concern that each person in the group was in complete acceptance of Vatican II and in accord with the utter necessity, determined by the world’s bishops, to reform and restore the liturgy was actually even stronger than mine, given his personal association with the Council.
I am not old enough to have experienced this for myself, but I have been reading up on the tumult of the 70’s and 80s and the near disappearance of the Traditional Latin Mass.
I would not describe the 60s, 70s, and 80s as a period of tumult. Such was very far from my lived experience although I grant that there were those who experienced it as something unpleasant. The introduction of the novus ordo was a very great positive to me, actually.
From what I understand, one of the primary purposes that indult Masses were permitted by Pope St. John Paul II was for the benefit of those attached to the old rites. What then would be the purpose of altering, even licitly, the manner in which those faithful, who longed for the Mass of their youth, were familiar with - namely a Mass where the servers and/or choir makes the reponses? If they wished to embrace the interpretation of “full, conscious, and active participation” that you espouse, would they not have simply attended the Novus Ordo Missae?
The one point I will address in a subsequent post in this thread.

As for the motives, the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei is very short and its focus is on trying to heal the ruptures to ecclesial communion and governance that the Lefebvrists had already inflicted upon the Church for more than 15 years and which had reached a consummation in the illicit ordination of four bishops without pontifical mandate, at the time of the motu proprio’s issuance. What the Holy Father said regarding the vetus ordo and its provision was:

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
 
Don Ruggero,

I do not understand why said that "With my bishop’s support, I went in explaining the Mass **could only be done as a dialogue Mass **and that the prayers had to be audible and with them engaged in the rite and responding ?

Our FSSP parishes do not necessarily follow that rule of thumb. As I understand the TLM, there are no rubrics for the laity so it becomes a matter of local custom. Some follow with the laity responding with the Altar boys and some do not. The Pater Noster is reserved for the Priest as is the Agnus Dei.

Just curious, that’s all :confused:
First, I want to make sure it is clear that we are talking about a disposition many years before Summorum Pontificum.

Second, I am not FSSP…very far from it. I am a diocesan priest and this provision was made under the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei by the bishop of the diocese as an indult for the lay faithful of his diocese who had petitioned for it – with the requirement that they had to assent to Sacrosanctum Concilium and that the provision of the Mass and sacraments according to the vetus ordo had to include catechesis on the necessity of the liturgical reform and restoration that the Council Fathers mandated at Vatican II.

This point rather is in confluence with a thought I expressed in the post I have just made.

We were living in a post-conciliar Church. It was 1990 and not 1950. One could not pretend that the critiques of *Sacrosanctum Concilium * are not there or somehow do not apply or, worse, should be set aside. Which is why, as I accepted this obedience, it was not only my having sought but the bishop insisting that his flock had no alternative but to embrace totally and completely what the Council had determined vis-a-vis the need to reform and to restore the liturgy.

The indult Mass the diocese provided would be the Mass with the 1962 missal, incorporating in so far as we possibly could, the insights of the needed reform – as was actually happening in the 1960s before we ceased using the 1962 missal and transitioned to the Missal of Blessed Paul VI. Hence the dialogue Mass. Hence the readings were not repeated in the vernacular since that would be a useless repetition and those choosing to attend a vetus ordo Mass, in Latin, were expected to either follow the reading in Latin because they could comprehend it or to read the translation provided as they were being read at the altar rather than engage in their private devotion in the midst of – and apart from – what was a corporate liturgical act.

In essence, the Mass and the other sacraments were provided according to the vetus ordo by my bishop as an indult but those participating could not participate in them as though they were in a sort of time warp in which the determinations of Vatican II did not exist for them as they existed for the rest of the Church.

In fact, I would point out that the reforms that were enacted in response to the mandates of Sacrosanctum Concilium were the fruit of the liturgical movement that arose out of 19th century scholarship and then most especially the work of liturgical scholars in the early 20th century in Europe.

How I celebrated the indult Mass in my diocese was quite in keeping with what the liturgy actually would have looked like in my diocese more or less in 1964…some two years after the Missal of John XXIII and one year after the promulgation of Sacrosanctum Concilium.
 
We were living in a post-conciliar Church. It was 1990 and not 1950. One could not pretend that the critiques of *Sacrosanctum Concilium * are not there or somehow do not apply or, worse, should be set aside. Which is why, as I accepted this obedience, it was not only my having sought but the bishop insisting that his flock had no alternative but to embrace totally and completely what the Council had determined vis-a-vis the need to reform and to restore the liturgy.
Thanks Father, for a couple of very enlightening posts. The above struck me. I think it’s an important point to note that the old rite (lower-case meaning “form” really) was allowed to exist as a liturgical form, but was not meant to be taken out of the context of Vatican II and thus indicating that Vatican II was a sort of… to borrow a word thrown about here often… cafeteria Council from one could pick and chose those reforms that suited them. I think that’s also the crux of the whole issue with the SSPX, that they do indeed want to pick and choose which parts of Vatican II they would like, or not like, have apply to them.

I therefore think your approach to insisting on the old form carrying the reforms of Vatican II in spirit and in reality was a wise decision.
 
Thanks Father, for a couple of very enlightening posts. The above struck me. I think it’s an important point to note that the old rite (lower-case meaning “form” really) was allowed to exist as a liturgical form, but was not meant to be taken out of the context of Vatican II and thus indicating that Vatican II was a sort of… to borrow a word thrown about here often… cafeteria Council from one could pick and chose those reforms that suited them. I think that’s also the crux of the whole issue with the SSPX, that they do indeed want to pick and choose which parts of Vatican II they would like, or not like, have apply to them.
I disagree. If St John Paul II wanted to impose reforms to the 62 Missal, he might have insisted on the Missal of 65 or 67, but he didn’t do that. He specified that it was the Missal of 62 be used and it MUST be in Latin. IOW, before SC.
 
I disagree. If St John Paul II wanted to impose reforms to the 62 Missal, he might have insisted on the Missal of 65 or 67, but he didn’t do that. He specified that it was the Missal of 62 be used and it MUST be in Latin. IOW, before SC.
Did you read what I wrote? I used the 1962 missal. The Mass was, of course, in Latin.

The dialogue Mass was were very much part of liturgical life in the 1950s – before the 1962 missal was promulgated. In other words, we were actually living the liturgical movement at the time the 1962 missal came into existence.

As one reads in Mediator Dei:
*105. Therefore, they are to be praised who, with the idea of getting the Christian people to take part more easily and more fruitfully in the Mass, strive to make them familiar with the “Roman Missal,” so that the faithful, united with the priest, may pray together in the very words and sentiments of the Church. They also are to be commended who strive to make the liturgy even in an external way a sacred act in which all who are present may share. This can be done in more than one way, when, for instance, the whole congregation, in accordance with the rules of the liturgy, either answer the priest in an orderly and fitting manner, or sing hymns suitable to the different parts of the Mass, or do both, or finally in high Masses when they answer the prayers of the minister of Jesus Christ and also sing the liturgical chant. *
As you go down the list of what the Council Fathers stipulated in Sacrosanctum Concilium had to change, these were not being pulled out of the air inside St. Peter’s Basilica…they were the fruit of the liturgical movement which was already affecting the liturgy and with which the Council Fathers and the periti were well acquainted.
 
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