Question about people that follow vatican 1

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Hello, I wanted to ask a question about people who call themselves catholic but don’t follow our pope today because they believe he is not the real pope among other things. Do they go to mass? Do they have confession? Do they recieve the eucharist regularly? I am really worried about their souls. Can some one help answer these questions?

I have a friend who is against vatican 2 and I suggested a mass in our area that is under the church but is practiced in the old latin way. I thought they might love it… I was wrong!!! They mocked the church… but I know they love God so much but why not his church… even if they believed it erred… why turn your back on the Lords bride…

Thank you 🙂
 
Your friend may call himself a Catholic, but he walks and talks like a Protestant. If the disagreements run that deep, I couldn’t even guess what he believes or practices regarding the Mass and the Sacraments.

(Forgive my use of he/him/his, especially if your friend is she/her/hers. I cannot write “they” when referring to one person. :o)

I would assume your friend means well but is misguided. May God bless and guide your friend.
 
If they have valid clergy (which some sedevacantist groups do) then they have a valid Mass with a valid Eucharist. These would be illict (that is they are practicing them against the law of the Church) but still valid (that is it is a real Mass with a real Eucharist). They don’t have valid confession, though, because that requires the permission of the local ordinary (usually a bishop).

More seriously, they are in a state of schism, which is grave matter and can be a mortal sin. The schism is new enough that are not in the same situation as say an Orthodox who’s ancestor’s a thousand years ago went into schism. The Orthodox person would only be in material schism, not formal schism unlike the sedevacantist (the person who doesn’t think the pope is the pope).

Ironically, they like to quote old magisterial teaching, including papal bulls like Unum Sanctum which clearly addresses their circumstances:

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

Pray for them.
 
Hello, I wanted to ask a question about people who call themselves catholic but don’t follow our pope today because they believe he is not the real pope among other things. Do they go to mass? Do they have confession? Do they recieve the eucharist regularly? I am really worried about their souls. Can some one help answer these questions?

I have a friend who is against vatican 2 and I suggested a mass in our area that is under the church but is practiced in the old latin way. I thought they might love it… I was wrong!!! They mocked the church… but I know they love God so much but why not his church… even if they believed it erred… why turn your back on the Lords bride…

Thank you 🙂
Firstly I’m confused by the title of this thread, all Catholics must accept the teachings of Vatican I(and all the other oecumenical councils of the Church including Vatican II)

In returning to your point, there are those who don’t accept that Vatican II was an oecumenical council of the Church and they put themselves outwith communion with the Supreme Pontiff and so outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church. It is generally impossible to groups all of them into one neat grouping(as it is with the various protestant groupings) and so to answer your questions fully. Some sedevacantist groups have validly ordained Clergy and as such have valid Sacraments even if they dispense them illegally. Pray for such people to return to unity.

My hope is that they left the Church in a state of invincible ignorance rather than deliberately turning their backs on Christ’s Church, and so retain some hope of salvation.
 
Hello, I wanted to ask a question about people who call themselves catholic but don’t follow our pope today because they believe he is not the real pope among other things. Do they go to mass? Do they have confession? Do they recieve the eucharist regularly? I am really worried about their souls. Can some one help answer these questions?

I have a friend who is against vatican 2 and I suggested a mass in our area that is under the church but is practiced in the old latin way. I thought they might love it… I was wrong!!! They mocked the church… but I know they love God so much but why not his church… even if they believed it erred… why turn your back on the Lords bride…

Thank you 🙂
People who “follow Vatican 1” include: the Holy Father, all the clergy, all the religious, and all the lay faithful who are not under schism or apostasy.

“Vatican 1” is a Holy Ecumenical Council, one of many in fact, whose conclusions are dogmatic and binding to all Catholics. In fact, Vatican 1 was specifically dogmatic, while Vatican II was not declared such. Particularly relevant are the following two declarations:
“In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmata carrying the mark of infallibility.” --Pope
Paul VI, General Audience of January 12, 1966
“this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council.” – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Vatican II Theological Consultant, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, July 17, 1988
For reasons that are too long, complicated, and sacred to be discussed here, something happened during and after the Second Vatican Holy Ecumenical Council. Things that moved Pope Paul VI to state a few years afterwards:
“The Church finds herself in an hour of anxiety. Some face a disturbed period of self-criticism, or what would even better be called self- destruction. It is an interior upheaval, acute and complicated, which nobody expected after the Council. We looked forward to a flowering, a serene expansion of conceptions which matured in the great sessions of the council. But … one must notice above all the sorrowful aspect. The Church is struck even by those who are part of her." – Pope Paul VI, December 7, 1968, Address to the Lombard Seminary at Rome
"We believed that after the Council would come a day of sunshine in the history of the Church. But instead there has come a day of clouds and storms, and of darkness of searching and uncertainties…And how did this come about? We will confide to you the thought that may be, we ourselves admit in free discussion, that may be unfounded, and that is that there has been a power, an adversary power. Let us call him by his name: the devil. It is as if from some mysterious crack, no, it is not mysterious, from some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.” – Pope Paul VI, June 29, 1972, Sermon during the Mass for Sts. Peter & Paul
What happened in the past forty years is great and terrible. It is better to avoid idle talk on the matter, and to keep things in our heart, learning what we can, and trying to remain as close as we can to the heart of Christ, to the Holy Father, and to the traditions passed on to us.

There are faithful who question some of the results of the Council. There are some who, though not being in schism, argue that some statements of Vatican II are in odor of heresy. There are others - these in schism - who argue that the See of Peter is vacant, that the Holy Mass is invalid, and lots of other nonsense.

I am worried about their souls as well. I am also worried about the souls of those who receive the Sacraments consistently but have a very poor understanding of what they are doing. Of those who confess presuming they will be absolved. Of those who go to Communion as if it was their right, perhaps lacking a proper disposition, perhaps not even preparing before and giving thanks afterwards, but coming in a rush and perhaps even late, and then entering chit-chatting right after Mass ends or, worse, leaving after Communion without even waiting for Mass to end. Of those who forgot that Holy Mass is a solemn sacrifice and see it as a communitary gathering that ought to be entertaining. Of those who have forgotten the need for contrition and recollection and silence during the Sacred Liturgy. Now these are many, and all around us, while the souls who are so concerned with our sacred traditions as to go too far and risk (or enter) schism are few. So, they should worry us more.

But ultimately, we can only save one soul: ours. That’s what we should worry about, truly.

It is indeed a very good thing that the traditional Roman Rite is now an official Form and is being offered more and more across the dioceses. This will help many become more humble and grateful towards the Holy See. However the issue of the friend you describe is not one of dogma, but one of pride. If he believed in dogma, he would remember that Vatican I declared the infallibility of the Holy Father in matters of faith and declared that salvation is linked to being united to the Holy Father.
 
People who “follow Vatican 1” include: the Holy Father, all the clergy, all the religious, and all the lay faithful who are not under schism or apostasy.

“Vatican 1” is a Holy Ecumenical Council, one of many in fact, whose conclusions are dogmatic and binding to all Catholics. In fact, Vatican 1 was specifically dogmatic, while Vatican II was not declared such. Particularly relevant are the following two declarations:

For reasons that are too long, complicated, and sacred to be discussed here, something happened during and after the Second Vatican Holy Ecumenical Council. Things that moved Pope Paul VI to state a few years afterwards:

What happened in the past forty years is great and terrible. It is better to avoid idle talk on the matter, and to keep things in our heart, learning what we can, and trying to remain as close as we can to the heart of Christ, to the Holy Father, and to the traditions passed on to us.

There are faithful who question some of the results of the Council. There are some who, though not being in schism, argue that some statements of Vatican II are in odor of heresy. There are others - these in schism - who argue that the See of Peter is vacant, that the Holy Mass is invalid, and lots of other nonsense.

I am worried about their souls as well. I am also worried about the souls of those who receive the Sacraments consistently but have a very poor understanding of what they are doing. Of those who confess presuming they will be absolved. Of those who go to Communion as if it was their right, perhaps lacking a proper disposition, perhaps not even preparing before and giving thanks afterwards, but coming in a rush and perhaps even late, and then entering chit-chatting right after Mass ends or, worse, leaving after Communion without even waiting for Mass to end. Of those who forgot that Holy Mass is a solemn sacrifice and see it as a communitary gathering that ought to be entertaining. Of those who have forgotten the need for contrition and recollection and silence during the Sacred Liturgy. Now these are many, and all around us, while the souls who are so concerned with our sacred traditions as to go too far and risk (or enter) schism are few. So, they should worry us more.

But ultimately, we can only save one soul: ours. That’s what we should worry about, truly.

It is indeed a very good thing that the traditional Roman Rite is now an official Form and is being offered more and more across the dioceses. This will help many become more humble and grateful towards the Holy See. However the issue of the friend you describe is not one of dogma, but one of pride. If he believed in dogma, he would remember that Vatican I declared the infallibility of the Holy Father in matters of faith and declared that salvation is linked to being united to the Holy Father.
If you yourself feel that Vatican II had the “odors of heresy,” I’d suggest that you read this article:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm
 
R_C #5
For reasons that are too long, complicated, and sacred to be discussed here, something happened during and after the Second Vatican Holy Ecumenical Council.
There are faithful who question some of the results of the Council. There are some who, though not being in schism, argue that some statements of Vatican II are in odor of heresy…
After the development of doctrine in Vatican II, and the faithful stewardship of Bl John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI, readers should know that the crisis in Christ’s Church resulted from the modernist errors abroad before Vatican II, whose promoters tried to take over the Council, referred to in *Christ Denied *TAN, 1982, by Fr Paul Wickens.

But before Vatican II, by May of 1964, the Sex Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS) had approved the sex education program put forward by 2 Swedish delegates, and the whole sordid conglomerate is exposed in Claire Chambers The SIECUS Circle, 1977. The power structure exerts pressure on local schools and the gullible public for its school sex education program. The network promotes population control, legalised abortion, homosexuality, pornography, sensitivity training and drugs. (p xv). We surely know how dissenters have spread these into the People of God.

The '60’s saw the rise of anarchy in the USA with much that was good in society decried and destroyed with nothing worthy to replace it. The new religion of the so-called Enlightenment was welcomed by selfists.

The degradation of sacred order, at the invitation of nuns, occurred from 1967 in the USA through humanistic psychologists especially Carl Rogers, and I have heard one of his lieutenants, Dr J W Coulson in person, apologising for the grave harm caused. [See *The Emperor’s New Clothes by William Kirk Kilpatrick, 1985, p 149-150]. The destruction of whole Catholic school systems and religious orders occurred.

Then followed the disgraceful public dissent against *Humanae Vitae *by Rahner and numerous dissenting theologians, Richard McBrien’s *Catholicism *(full of errors), the revolt of the Catholic universities and the bureaucratic/theological tail wagging the episcopal dog so to speak – coupled with lax or dissenting bishops this resulted in a grave crisis, which is worldwide with relativism, selfism and secularism.

How many Catholics know this? The great papal teaching and guidance of popes Bl John Paul II and Benedict XVI have nurtured the reform of seminaries and the rejuvenation of the apostolate of the laity, with a resurgence of faith and action among the young, in the midst of the secular chaos of today.

Those who claim that Vatican II has “the odor of heresy” need to have their heads examined.
 
Sedevacantists—those that condemn the Second Vatican Council as heretical, and do not accept the post-Conciliar Popes as valid Pontiffs—have valid albeit schismatic Masses and the Real Presence is truly there on their altars.

In the years that followed the Second Vatican Council there was a lot of chaos and disorder and Rome and the world’s bishops did not handle the situation as well as they could have and should have. This created an atmosphere of confusion. Saying that though does not absolve sedevacantists of the state of schism that they have placed themselves in. But it does stand as a testament to the burden of leadership on our pastors.

Pray for them that they may once again return to the Barque of Peter.
Ironically, they like to quote old magisterial teaching, including papal bulls like Unum Sanctum which clearly addresses their circumstances:

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

Pray for them.
A sedevacantist would agree completely with Unum Sanctum. They would simply respond that Pope Francis is not the real Pope.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
 
Hello, I wanted to ask a question about people who call themselves catholic but don’t follow our pope today because they believe he is not the real pope among other things. Do they go to mass? Do they have confession? Do they recieve the eucharist regularly? I am really worried about their souls. Can some one help answer these questions?

I have a friend who is against vatican 2 and I suggested a mass in our area that is under the church but is practiced in the old latin way. I thought they might love it… I was wrong!!! They mocked the church… but I know they love God so much but why not his church… even if they believed it erred… why turn your back on the Lords bride…

Thank you 🙂
Has it ever registered in your mind that they may absolutely love the Roman Catholic Church and that they may be attending valid traditional Masses and receiving valid confessions from valid traditional priests WITHIN the Roman Catholic Church without having anything to do with the Conciliar Church because they believe the Conciliar Church with its new Mass, sacraments and canon laws is NOT the Roman Catholic Church, but a new and false religion headed by an heretic or apostate claimant to the chair of Peter? They believe John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I are not true popes because they promote Vatican II, which teaches religious liberty, collegiality and ecumenism, which have been condemned by previous popes and councils. God bless you.
 
Has it ever registered in your mind that they may absolutely love the Roman Catholic Church and that they may be attending valid traditional Masses and receiving valid confessions from valid traditional priests WITHIN the Roman Catholic Church without having anything to do with the Conciliar Church because they believe the Conciliar Church with its new Mass, sacraments and canon laws is NOT the Roman Catholic Church, but a new and false religion headed by an heretic or apostate claimant to the chair of Peter? They believe John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I are not true popes because they promote Vatican II, which teaches religious liberty, collegiality and ecumenism, which have been condemned by previous popes and councils. God bless you.
That may indeed be the error in which they believe. It sounds like the default position of several sedevacadeists I have dialogued with. Arius, Nestorius, Luther etc. would probably have defended themselves along similar lines…
 
That may indeed be the error in which they believe. It sounds like the default position of several sedevacadeists I have dialogued with. Arius, Nestorius, Luther etc. would probably have defended themselves along similar lines…
The difference is that the earlier Arch-heretics more often that not tried to get the Pope to agree with them as they always believed themselves to be orthodox and papal confirmation would have secured them in that knowledge.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
 
The difference is that the earlier Arch-heretics more often that not tried to get the Pope to agree with them as they always believed themselves to be orthodox and papal confirmation would have secured them in that knowledge.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
True enough I suppose, but their followers were less inclined to do so, maybe that would be a better analogy. For instance he Nestorian Church still exists and it broke away in the wake of the council of Chalcedon(AD 451). They didn’t see the need for a Roman Pontiff
 
True enough I suppose, but their followers were less inclined to do so, maybe that would be a better analogy. For instance he Nestorian Church still exists and it broke away in the wake of the council of Chalcedon(AD 451). They didn’t see the need for a Roman Pontiff
The Assyrian Church of the East, the present-day “Nestorian Church”, has its own leader: the Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. The man who holds that title today is Mar Dinkha IV.

I think you’ll find that, prior to the Protestant Rebellion, schismatic churches formed their own hierarchy to replace the Church from which they had separated.
 
True enough I suppose, but their followers were less inclined to do so, maybe that would be a better analogy. For instance he Nestorian Church still exists and it broke away in the wake of the council of Chalcedon(AD 451). They didn’t see the need for a Roman Pontiff
Not so fast. Don’t forget our brethren of the sui iuris Chaldean Catholic Church! 😉

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
 
After the development of doctrine in Vatican II, and the faithful stewardship of Bl John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI, readers should know that the crisis in Christ’s Church resulted from the modernist errors abroad before Vatican II, whose promoters tried to take over the Council, referred to in *Christ Denied *TAN, 1982, by Fr Paul Wickens.

But before Vatican II, by May of 1964, the Sex Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS) had approved the sex education program put forward by 2 Swedish delegates, and the whole sordid conglomerate is exposed in Claire Chambers The SIECUS Circle, 1977. The power structure exerts pressure on local schools and the gullible public for its school sex education program. The network promotes population control, legalised abortion, homosexuality, pornography, sensitivity training and drugs. (p xv). We surely know how dissenters have spread these into the People of God.

The '60’s saw the rise of anarchy in the USA with much that was good in society decried and destroyed with nothing worthy to replace it. The new religion of the so-called Enlightenment was welcomed by selfists.

The degradation of sacred order, at the invitation of nuns, occurred from 1967 in the USA through humanistic psychologists especially Carl Rogers, and I have heard one of his lieutenants, Dr J W Coulson in person, apologising for the grave harm caused. [See *The Emperor’s New Clothes
by William Kirk Kilpatrick, 1985, p 149-150]. The destruction of whole Catholic school systems and religious orders occurred.

Then followed the disgraceful public dissent against *Humanae Vitae *by Rahner and numerous dissenting theologians, Richard McBrien’s *Catholicism *(full of errors), the revolt of the Catholic universities and the bureaucratic/theological tail wagging the episcopal dog so to speak – coupled with lax or dissenting bishops this resulted in a grave crisis, which is worldwide with relativism, selfism and secularism.

How many Catholics know this? The great papal teaching and guidance of popes Bl John Paul II and Benedict XVI have nurtured the reform of seminaries and the rejuvenation of the apostolate of the laity, with a resurgence of faith and action among the young, in the midst of the secular chaos of today.

Those who claim that Vatican II has “the odor of heresy” need to have their heads examined.

Abu, these people don’t claim that Vatican II has the odor of heresy. They claim that some affirmations, particularly some modernist and some protestant affirmations, found their way in some of the conciliar documents.

To make their point, they quote some of the most confusing statements and show how they indeed seem to more or less openly contradict that which was stated in previous Councils and Papal documents.

And since several mighty figures of the Church (including the Pope that closed the Council) have stated the Council did not deal with infallible dogmas, but was merely pastoral, then these people claim that a handful of these fallible pastoral statements are in reality modernist or protestant errors in disguise, injected there by the enemies from within.

Seeing the fruits of 40 postconciliar years, more than a soul (some even quite orthodox and in quite high places) do believe there could be some truth in here…surely Pope Leo XIII, way before the Council, had no fear to admit that the devil himself was in the mood to strike the heart of the Church in the coming time, as had been foretold of old:
Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of man has taken courage…transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of his Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory…These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
From that to step into schism or worse, the jump is big. We cannot forget that no matter how clever the devil and his servants on earth (outside and inside the Church), and no matter how much power the Lord grants him for a time in order to test His Church as gold is tested in fire, ultimately all Councils are guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Church is guided by the Vicar of Christ, who is endowed of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The Church has always gone through rough times, and this is no excuse for anyone to walk away. But we cannot dismiss what has happened before, during, and after the Council, and what is still happening in too many places. There are errors, mistakes, and even openly anti-Catholic things being mixed with the sacred things. To cross our arms and accept it all in the name of the Council is not just wrong, but foolish. Perhaps even more than to deny the validity of the Council.
 
Abu, these people don’t claim that Vatican II has the odor of heresy. They claim that some affirmations, particularly some modernist and some protestant affirmations, found their way in some of the conciliar documents.

To make their point, they quote some of the most confusing statements and show how they indeed seem to more or less openly contradict that which was stated in previous Councils and Papal documents.

And since several mighty figures of the Church (including the Pope that closed the Council) have stated the Council did not deal with infallible dogmas, but was merely pastoral, then these people claim that a handful of these fallible pastoral statements are in reality modernist or protestant errors in disguise, injected there by the enemies from within.

Seeing the fruits of 40 postconciliar years, more than a soul (some even quite orthodox and in quite high places) do believe there could be some truth in here…surely Pope Leo XIII, way before the Council, had no fear to admit that the devil himself was in the mood to strike the heart of the Church in the coming time, as had been foretold of old:

From that to step into schism or worse, the jump is big. We cannot forget that no matter how clever the devil and his servants on earth (outside and inside the Church), and no matter how much power the Lord grants him for a time in order to test His Church as gold is tested in fire, ultimately all Councils are guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Church is guided by the Vicar of Christ, who is endowed of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The Church has always gone through rough times, and this is no excuse for anyone to walk away. But we cannot dismiss what has happened before, during, and after the Council, and what is still happening in too many places. There are errors, mistakes, and even openly anti-Catholic things being mixed with the sacred things. To cross our arms and accept it all in the name of the Council is not just wrong, but foolish. Perhaps even more than to deny the validity of the Council.
What does “merely pastoral” really mean? I can think of a lot of adjectives that could apply to Vatican II, but “merely” wouldn’t be one of them. I really do understand that the Council didn’t define any new dogma (but of course there was the “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church”), but I have seen people using the “merely pastoral” label as a gesture of politeness to a Council that they feel free to ignore / regret / dismiss.
 
What does “merely pastoral” really mean? I can think of a lot of adjectives that could apply to Vatican II, but “merely” wouldn’t be one of them. I really do understand that the Council didn’t define any new dogma (but of course there was the “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church”), but I have seen people using the “merely pastoral” label as a gesture of politeness to a Council that they feel free to ignore / regret / dismiss.
It is because the Ordinary Magisterium exercised by the Second Vatican Council was not infallible and it is liable to clarification, correction or outright suppression. Where the Church speaks on issues such as the Real Presence it is simply repeating defined dogma. But when the council posits something new, whether a development of an old doctrine such as salvation outside of the Church, or religious liberty, it is only an exercise of the Ordinary Magisterium. If someone tries but cannot see how they can be reconciled, they are not bound under pain of sin to assent.

People highlight this distinction because many people have turned the Second Vatican Council into a “super-dogma”. For many it’s a reality check against those that would label them as heretics or schismatics for rejecting certain teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
 
R_C #15
And since several mighty figures of the Church (including the Pope that closed the Council) have stated the Council did not deal with infallible dogmas, but was merely pastoral, then these people claim that a handful of these fallible pastoral statements are in reality modernist or protestant errors in disguise, injected there by the enemies from within.
“Merely pastoral” is the petard on which dissenters are hoist.

In his book, *Sources of Renewal *Karol Cardinal Wojtyla (Bl Pope John Paul II) wrote: “It may be said that every Council in the Church’s history has been a pastoral one, if only because the assembled bishops, under the Pope’s guidance, are pastors of the Church. At the same time every Council is an act of the supreme Magisterium of the Church. Magisterium signifies teaching based on authority, a teaching which is the mission of the Apostles and their successors, it is part of their function and an essential task.” The Cardinal goes on: “All this has been signally confirmed by Vatican II, which, while preserving its pastoral character and mindful of the purpose for which it was called, profoundly developed the doctrine of faith and thus provided a basis for its enrichment.” (Ibid, p 38-39).

In The Pope, the Council, and the Mass, by James Likoudis and Kenneth D. Whitehead:
**"The term ‘pastoral council’ as applied to Vatican II is merely a popular description and does not refer to any specific type of council recognized by the authority of the Catholic Church (the teachings and decisions of which would presumably somehow not be as binding upon members of the Church as those of a ‘dogmatic’ council). In the Church there are traditionally councils, or synods, which are styled ‘national councils,’ ‘provincial councils,’ or ‘general (ecumenical) councils,’ but none styled specifically a ‘pastoral council.’ ” **(p 33).

“Pope John XXIII, in calling the Council, stated that the reasons he was doing so were of a character that could be broadly termed ‘pastoral,’ although Pope John himself, in using the word, merely spoke of the need today of a Church Magisterium ‘which is predominantly pastoral in character.’ Pope Paul VI similarly spoke of the ‘pastoral nature of the Council’ in his Weekly General Audience of January 12, 1966, but he didn’t call it a ‘pastoral council’ as if this were some new species of Church gathering which the faithful might go along with or not, as they chose” (p. 33).

“Pope Pius IX taught on this subject in a letter to the Abbot of Solesmes: " '…the Ecumenical Council is governed by the Holy Spirit…it is solely by the impulse of this Divine Spirit that the Council defines and proposes what must be believed…’ Not only what the Council ‘defines’ – it should be noted – but what it ‘proposes.’ " (Op cit. P 38-39).

So pastorally inclined like all Councils, Vatican II also developed doctrine profoundly, as Fr John a Hardon, S.J., affirms. Vatican II confirmed that even non infallible doctrine must be received with assent: “This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra”…when doctrine is proposed or formulated. *Lumen Gentium *(Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), 25].

Facing Reality
As Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI placed Vatican II in its rightful place:
"I am convinced that the damage that we have incurred in these twenty years is due, not to the ‘true’ Council, but to the unleashing within the Church of latent polemical and centrifugal forces; and outside the Church it is due to the confrontation with a cultural revolution in the West: the success of the upper middle class, the new ‘tertiary bourgeoisie’, with its liberal-radical ideology of individualistic, rationalistic and hedonistic stamp. The cardinal exhorts all Catholics who wish to remain such “to return to the authentic texts of the original Vatican II.” The Ratzinger Report, Vittorio Messori, Ignatius, 1985, p 28-31].

Cardinal Ratzinger expressed the required fidelity to Vatican II as: “to defend the true tradition of the Church today is to defend the Council…And this today of the Church is the documents of Vatican II, without reservations that amputate them and without arbitrariness that distorts them.” (The Ratzinger Report, Ignatius Press, 1985, p 31).

Fr William Most examined ten legitimate changes at Vatican II and found not one was a reverse of doctrine. All gave answers to previously debated points. Fr Most concludes: “It is obvious then that Vatican II did not create a revolution in theology. There are no reversals of teaching at all, and some…are only a little different or stronger than previous teachings, but all are in the same direction.” Catholic Apologetics Today: Answers To Modern Critics, Fr William G Most, TAN, 1986, p 200].

The *Dogmatic Constitution On The Church *#8 (Vatican II) teaches that “The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth His holy Church…(T)his is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic.” Fr John Hardon, S.J., describes as “unequivocal” (= clearly defined), “for the first time in conciliar history — the Church is not one of many branches.” [See *The Catholic Catechism, 1975, Doubleday, p 213].
 
It is because the Ordinary Magisterium exercised by the Second Vatican Council was not infallible and it is liable to clarification, correction or outright suppression. Where the Church speaks on issues such as the Real Presence it is simply repeating defined dogma. But when the council posits something new, whether a development of an old doctrine such as salvation outside of the Church, or religious liberty, it is only an exercise of the Ordinary Magisterium. If someone tries but cannot see how they can be reconciled, they are not bound under pain of sin to assent.

People highlight this distinction because many people have turned the Second Vatican Council into a “super-dogma”. For many it’s a reality check against those that would label them as heretics or schismatics for rejecting certain teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
O Sapientia, what do you think the word “Magisterium” means? It means “teaching authority”. If a discipline or doctrine did not require assent, what would be the point of the Church teaching it?

The Magisterium teaches with an authority which we are not at liberty to reject, even if it is teaching fallibly. This is Catholicism, not Protestantism. There is no lawful dissent.
 
it is only an exercise of the Ordinary Magisterium. If someone tries but cannot see how they can be reconciled, they are not bound under pain of sin to assent.

People highlight this distinction because many people have turned the Second Vatican Council into a “super-dogma”. For many it’s a reality check against those that would label them as heretics or schismatics for rejecting certain teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
OS.
This.
O Sapientia, what do you think the word “Magisterium” means? It means “teaching authority”. If a discipline or doctrine did not require assent, what would be the point of the Church teaching it?

The Magisterium teaches with an authority which we are not at liberty to reject, even if it is teaching fallibly. This is Catholicism, not Protestantism. There is no lawful dissent.
I suggest you read some more about infallibility in the context of the Magisterium. It’s not so clean-cut. Indeed it means “teaching authority”. However, it is not dictatorial. One is called to give full assent, but to give assent does not mean to be in agreement. I can give assent to God’s will out of obedience, even if I disagree with something or are not inclined to do so.

In fact, why do you think councils and synods are called? Why do you think there are theologians calling for a “reform of the reform” on the liturgy? Because there are matters which need to be further worked on. People disagree on important aspects and want them to be addressed. This is no “dissent”. In fact, there is more “dissent” in someone pushing for an all-vernacular Mass (contrary to the dogmatic constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium of Vatican II) than in someone arguing that some ecumenical activities justified under the Vatican II umbrella are being carried out in an erroneous way.

What matters is respect for authority. We can argue that a pastoral statement needs clarification. In fact, if it did not work pastorally, it may need to just be entirely reconsidered. That is, we can disagree. But we cannot dissent from the authority. Meaning we cannot say: the documents of Vatican II include heresy, Pope X has taught heresy, etc. That is indeed a schismatic attitude. But to disagree on certain conclusions and interpretations drawn after the council was closed, or on certain initiatives carried out after the council and justified by the “spirit” of the council? That’s not schismatic at all. The issue is not the Magisterium. It is the interpretation that people who are not the Magisterium make of Magisterial teachings, and the application of their interpretations.
 
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