Question about Prophets

[Mormon_Cultist]

Wow - now you’re floundering. I am a Pharisee for viewing statements supporting polygamy and racism as abhorrent?

Not what I said at all.
Jesus made many statements that some of those around Him found to be hard to accept, or just considered to be plain wrong. The fact that some people did not like Him or His teachings did not alter the truth one bit.

The reason Mormons in general are viewed as not Christian is that Mormonism and Christianity couldn’t be more different than night and day. Mormons wishing to be acknowledged as Christians makes about as much sense as Catholics wishing to be acknowledged as Wiccans:whacky:. This is what upsets Christians who are Orthodox, Protestant, or Catholic - the fact that a sect that denies the central tenets of historical Christianity is now claiming to be Christian.

Yes, we are certainly different to established, orthodox ‘normative’ Christianity as it is apparent today; but we are identical to the church that Jesus founded during His mortal ministry, and that His apostles continued to grown and spread until their deaths.
We have always claimed to be Chistian, because we are. Call us ‘non-nomative’ if you like, but the more messed up the philosophies of the world become, the more non-normative I plan to be. You can count on it.

And by the way, nobody on here is attacking Mormons personally - this is simply a critique of Mormonism and its doctrines, which from any Christian’s point of view, are going to be unorthodox.

As above, I don’t deny we are unorthodox when compared to what Christianity is seen as today, but the same yardstick also makes the original saints unorthodox.

And now you appeal to SAINT Augustine, whom your church holds as a member, an ardent defender of, and convert to, the great abomination that is the Catholic Church. How can you have the gall to appeal to our saints when your own church denies them as heretics and apostates? Your church has already twisted St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasius around, now it’s going for St. Augustine. Unbelievable. Point out to me where St. Augustine supports the doctrines of polygamy. Please.

whatdidaugustinesayaboutpolygamy.blogspot.com/

And thirdly, you obviously then deny the teaching of the major LDS church body, which now claims that polygamy is wrong - or do you deny that it was ever right - who knows! The early LDS movement practiced it, and abandoned it. Now you are claiming it has never changed. Will you please make up your mind at least??? Which is it? Can blacks not hold the priesthood or not? Is polygamy acceptable or not?

We do not claim that polygamy is wrong, only against the laws of the lands in which we live. Best go brush up on our teachings before trying to school me in them.

My religion was founded by Jesus Christ,

As was mine, and we’re sticking to His doctrines this time.

The things He said were indeed radical and many of His fellow Jews would not hear them. If you are saying His apostles said radical things then please mention what those things were. Nothing He said or that His apostles said bother me.

His apostles said the same radical things that He did, then on top of that added that the gospel was to be taught to everyone, not only Jews; taught that baptism by immersion, by proper authority was vital, and should be administered immediately upon the profession of faith and repentance; taught that baptism for the dead was necessary to ensure that all could receive this essential ordinance…

There is a difference between saying radical things and crazy things. I accept the things Jesus and His apostles said, radical or not. Do you accept the things your founders said, such as that which has been referenced in the first post here? Or, were those things more than radical and really crazy?

I accept every word that the First Presidency and quorum of the twelve apostles have ever added as doctrines of the church.
Single statements made by church leaders, while sincere professions of belief based on personal study and consideration, do not form doctrines of the church unless formally ratified by that full council of prophets, seers and revelators.

Are you saying that every Mormon receives some kind of personal revelation from God directly affirming every Mormon doctrine, and they all agree?

In short, yes.
Not every member feels the need to get that confirmation of each individual statement, the knowledge that the church is true, and testimony of divinely appointed leadership are more han sufficient to accept all that our inspired leaders tell us.

If your doctrine never changed are you saying that polygamy was not the practice and doctrine of Mormonism as established by your prophet and was not changed?
Are you saying polygamy was acceptable in the first period of your religion, the the Mormon prophet who started it got it right and his wife is in hell as he said, and then God said to stop it some time later through another prophet and both practices were revelaed by God? If you are saying that then was polygamy acceptable to God throughout the 1800 plus years of Christianity when all Christians forbid it and they just did not know it?

Polygamy was acceptable to God anytime He accepted or commanded it, but at no other time. He accepted it in Old Testament times, and the practise was common amongst the greatest prophets and most righteous men who ever lived.

Do you have a reference?

Only a handful:
whatdidaugustinesayaboutpolygamy.blogspot.com/

 

[Stephen168]

The doctrine on those issues has never changed.
Polygamy is a well established practise throughout the Old Testament, which many (/most?) of the highly regarded prophets of God subscribed to.
I also note that Augustine held distinctly similar views to Latter Day Saints on this issue.

Only a handful:
whatdidaugustinesayaboutpolygamy.blogspot.com/

I don’t see any comparison in your link, just some quotes from St. Augustine.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t see any comparison in your link, just some quotes from St. Augustine.

The “about Tom Gruber” page is a wild read, oh myyy gooodness!

 

[Stephen168]

The “about Tom Gruber” page is a wild read, oh myyy gooodness!

Yes, it is. At least he provides us with his beliefs, so we can compare them to the quotes of St. Augustine in context. Then we can tell he believes just the opposite of the point St. Augustine is making in his “On Marriage and Concupiscence” and “Reply to Faustum.”

I have been trying to find the Augustine support for :
Joseph Smith; D&C 132:4:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant(polygamy); and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

I have been trying to find the Augustine support for :

The new and everlasting covenant of marriage is not polygamy. It is temple sealing of husband and wife for time and all eternity.
From those Augustine quotes (and that site was not my original source, just a convenient place to link to the relevant passages) it’s quite clear that he does not condemn polygamy as the rest of Christendom does these days.

 

[theidler]

I give up.:banghead:

 

[Stephen168]

From those Augustine quotes(…) it’s quite clear that he does not condemn polygamy as the rest of Christendom does these days.

The quotes were take out of context of the original document. Mormons do this in an attempt to make the invention of Joseph Smith appear to be ancient. It is clear after reading the complete document “Marriage and Concupiscence,” St. Augustine claims marriage according to the gospel of Jesus Christ to be: one man, one woman, no divorce, no birth control. The children born of marriage are born with original sin and require baptism. This is the definition of marriage and baptism taught by the Apostles and still taught by the Catholic Church.

we are identical to the church that Jesus founded during His mortal ministry, and that His apostles continued to grown and spread until their deaths.

clearly, you are not

 

[zaffiroborant]

We do not claim that polygamy is wrong, only against the laws of the lands in which we live. Best go brush up on our teachings before trying to school me in them.

It may not be taught but according to a recent PEW survey reported in the SLC Tribune most LDS do think it’s wrong.

As for polygamy itself, 86 percent of Mormons soundly condemn the practice as “morally wrong,” higher than the 79 percent who decry sex between unmarried adults.

If anyone is interested you can read the article here and the PEW survey here

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

It is clear after reading the complete document “Marriage and Concupiscence,” St. Augustine claims marriage according to the gospel of Jesus Christ to be: one man, one woman, no divorce, no birth control. The children born of marriage are born with original sin and require baptism. This is the definition of marriage and baptism taught by the Apostles and still taught by the Catholic Church.

No amount of context can change what Augustine clearly states in those quotes: that polygamy is not wrong in and of itself, but that in times past it has been acceptable to God to permit certain of His righteous prophets and followers to take multiple wives. Augustine does not condemn a single one of the Old Testament prophets (using Jacob as his example) for this practise, and does not believe that God does either.

It may not be taught but according to a recent PEW survey reported in the SLC Tribune most LDS do think it’s wrong.

In which case they simply do not understand the doctrine.
They are correct to think they would be wrong to take it upon themselves to enter into multiple marriage covenants; but wrong to thing that polygamy is and always is an abomination before God, because scriptural record clearly shows that this is not the case.

 

[grandfather]

I give up.:banghead:

Which is it? Bang you head against the wall or talk to it.

 

[Jerusha]

Which is it? Bang you head against the wall or talk to it.

Or talk around it!

 

[Stephen168]

No amount of context can change what Augustine clearly states in those quotes: that polygamy is not wrong in and of itself, but that in times past it has been acceptable to God to permit certain of His righteous prophets and followers to take multiple wives. Augustine does not condemn a single one of the Old Testament prophets (using Jacob as his example) for this practise, and does not believe that God does either.

Yes, context changes the cherry picked quotes from being “pro-polygamy” as the Mormon Church teaches it to polygamy being not necessarily an indication of concupiscence (lust) as St. Augustine teaches it. He goes on to explain in his work on “Marriage and Concupiscence” what Christian marriage is according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is one man, one woman, no divorce, no birth control. The children born of marriage are born with original sin and require baptism. This is the definition of marriage and baptism taught by the Apostles and still taught by the Catholic Church.

After you read the complete document. it is clear that:

I also note that Augustine held distinctly similar views to Latter Day Saints on this issue. (polygamy)

is not true. The Mormon understanding of marriage is not at all what St. Augustine teaches. The Mormon definition of marriage is not Christian.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

Yes, context changes the cherry picked quotes from being “pro-polygamy” as the Mormon Church teaches it to polygamy being not necessarily an indication of concupiscence (lust) as St. Augustine teaches it.

Yes, Augustine says that for that reason those men were permitted by God to be married to more than one woman. And that there is no reason for accusations against them for so doing. Therefore polygamy is not wrong in and of itself, rather “The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it.”
“But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom.”
While not identical to our understanding of this doctrine, it is clear that Augustine does not condemn polygamy on grounds that he considers it to be wrong in the eyes of God; rather that it is now contrary to the laws and customs of society.

The Mormon definition of marriage is not Christian.

So what standpoint other than;
LDS Family Proclamation:

marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God

(lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng)
Do you believe Christians take?

 

[theidler]

Which is it? Bang you head against the wall or talk to it.

I don’t know grandfather…I guess I can jump into wackyland again, but this it’s seemingly just an exercise in frustration. The best one can hope for is to plant a seed of the Gospel that will later bear fruit. Simply debating seems to go nowhere.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, Augustine says that for that reason those men were** permitted by God** to be married to more than one woman. And that there is no reason for accusations against them for so doing. Therefore polygamy is not wrong in and of itself, rather “The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it.”
“But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom.”
While not identical to our understanding of this doctrine, it is clear that Augustine does not condemn polygamy on grounds that he considers it to be wrong in the eyes of God; rather that it is now contrary to the laws and customs of society.

These quotes are from “Reply to Faustum” and are part of Augustine’s defense of the Old Testament against the claims of Faustum. Faustum claimed the stories of the Old Testament were either lies about wicked acts against God or actual wicked acts against God; either way they should be condemned.
St. Augustine:

But we are defending the sacred Scriptures, not man’s sins. Nor are we concerned to justify this action, as if our God had either commanded it or approved of it; or as if, when men are called just in Scripture, it meant that they could not sin if they chose. And as, in the books which those critics find fault with, God nowhere expresses approval of this action, what thoughtless folly it is to bring a charge from this narrative against these writings, when in other places such actions are condemned by express prohibitions!

Augustine is defending the scriptures against Faustum’s condemnation, not the sinful stories contained in them.
St. Augustine:

Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it.

He does not say it is commanded by God or even ‘permitted by God.’ He says they committed no crime. This practice is condemned by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So we should not condemn the Old Testament because the stories contained in them were not wicked in their day, and scripture condemns their actions is other places. Or the stories of wickedness are a warning to us all.

So what standpoint other than;
LDS Family Proclamation:

marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God

(lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng)
Do you believe Christians take?

For the third time:
Augustine tells us in his work on “Marriage and Concupiscence” what Christian marriage is according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is one man, one woman, no divorce, no birth control. The children born of marriage are born with original sin and require baptism. This is the definition of marriage and baptism taught by the Apostles and still taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t know grandfather…I guess I can jump into wackyland again, but this it’s seemingly just an exercise in frustration. The best one can hope for is to plant a seed of the Gospel that will later bear fruit. Simply debating seems to go nowhere.

Any group that believes that a work which has proven to be fiction is actually true history is a group that is firm in its beliefs. They are clearly an invention of 19th century America (anti-catholic, racist) so I find it interesting when they cherry pick the Fathers of the Church in an attempt to justify their non-Christian beliefs.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

On John Ankerberg show this weekend:

SANDRA TANNER & Dr Wilder & husband Michael Wilder ex-LDS High Priest

Dr. Wilder ex -BYU prof!!!

find on Daystar etc Cable Channels

very interesting:thumbsup:

 

[theidler]

On John Ankerberg show this weekend:

SANDRA TANNER & Dr Wilder & husband Michael Wilder ex-LDS High Priest

Dr. Wilder ex -BYU prof!!!

find on Daystar etc Cable Channels

very interesting:thumbsup:

John Ankerberg holds Catholicism to be a cult…needless to say, I’m not a fan. But the show could be interesting nonetheless…

 

[theidler]

Speaking of Prophets and such - Mormon_Cultist, are the several vision accounts not somewhat troubling to you?
1827 — Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit.

1827 — Account by Martin Harris given to Rev. John Clark, as published in his book Gleanings by the Way, printed in 1842, pp. 222-229.

1830 — Interview of Joseph Smith by Peter Bauder, recounted by Bauder in his book The Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, printed in 1834, pp. 36-38.

1832 — Earliest known attempt at an ‘official’ recounting of the ‘First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith.

1834-35 — Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3

1835 — Account given by Joseph Smith to Joshua the Jewish minister, Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835.

1835 — Account given by Joseph Smith to Erastus Holmes on November 14, 1835, originally published in the Deseret News of Saturday May 29, 1852.

1838 — This account became the official version, now part of Mormon Scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:7-20. Though written in 1838, it was not published until 1842 in Times and Season, March 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 10, pp. 727-728, 748-749, 753.

1844 — Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism.

1859 — Interview with Martin Harris, Tiffany’s Monthly, 1859, New York: Published by Joel Tiffany, vol. v.—12, pp. 163-170.

source here

 

[David]

I do not post this anger or belittle. I post it as a question. Following are quotes from LDS prophets. How can anyone claim that these men receive their direction directly from God?

Hello TexanKnight, In my opinion the answer is technique. Certainly if the Mormons knocked on your door and said, “come join my religion and you can be a God of your own planet”, most would slam the door, or fall down laughing, or both.

I think all major religions define God as the one and only creator of the universe, and everything in it. So most would never join the Mormons. However when they come to my door they never volunteer those types of beliefs.

They wait till later when they can apply peer pressure, to drop those bombs.

You can contrast that to the Catholic Church and RCIA. New members are taught what the Church believes before they even get to join. We have nothing to hide.
Catechism of Catholic Church

Peace
David