question about purgatory

  • Thread starter Thread starter jamil_joseph02
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jamil_joseph02

Guest
If I today die in a state of grace, my soul goes to purgatory isn’t it? Then what if my cleansing in purgatory is finished before the second coming of Christ, does that mean my soul will stay in heaven for the meantime, as I wait for my body to be reunited with it?

Hope that made sense somehow.
 
“Meantime” is a term relative to time measurement. Since we are not sure of how time works, you might “wait” but not necessarily in the sense of earthly time. But yes, you will be reunited when the new heaven and new earth are actualized.
 
If I today die in a state of grace, my soul goes to purgatory isn’t it?
Your going to Purgatory may not necessarily be the case. You may actually die in such a perfect state of grace with no stain of sin that you will skip Purgatory and go straight to Heaven – something we all strive for.
 
So same goes to my soul in hell if I die in a state of rebellion, isn’t it? That my soul will experience tormenting first (will wait) before it reunites with my body at Christ’s second coming?

And that’s exactly what is now happening to souls who die in a state of rebellion in hell, am I right?
 
hey, another “purgatory concern” that popped out of my head.

Does God forgive us in purgatory for the sins we failed to ask for forgiveness while on earth?
 
hey, another “purgatory concern” that popped out of my head.

Does God forgive us in purgatory for the sins we failed to ask for forgiveness while on earth?
No. Purgatory offers no forgiveness of sins. It “cleanses” us of the damage done to our soul by sin which has already been confessed and/or forgiven. We cannot go to purgatory if we are not in a state of saving grace.

The problem is that sin is not just a one time thing that you do… it damages the soul in the process. This is why penance is SO important… because a proper penance seeks to undo some of the hurt and damage caused to the soul by the sin of the person. But a person cannot go to heaven with such an impurity if it remains, so any portion of venial sin or damage left by forgiven mortal sin must be purged from the soul before it can enter heaven.

So, all mortal sin must be forgiven BEFORE one enters into purgatory. Venial sin… we don’t know.
 
hey, another “purgatory concern” that popped out of my head.

Does God forgive us in purgatory for the sins we failed to ask for forgiveness while on earth?
From “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Dr. Ott on souls entering Purgatory with unconfessed venial sins:
The remission of the venial sins which are not yet remitted, occurs, according to the teaching of St. Thomas (De male, 7, 11), as it does in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This act of contrition, which is presumably awakened immediately after entry into the purifying fire, does not, however, effect the abrogation or the deminution of the punishment for sins, since in the other world there is no longer any possibility of merit.
 
No. Purgatory offers no forgiveness of sins. It “cleanses” us of the damage done to our soul by sin which has already been confessed and/or forgiven. We cannot go to purgatory if we are not in a state of saving grace.

.
then why does this little Catholic Answer article interpret Matt 12:32 as if purgatory does so?

CATHOLIC: I agree that we cannot say that everything present in Judaism before Christ is something that applies to our state after Christ. Even so, the indication in Maccabees of purification after death is not a precept but a belief, and so it is not in the same category as dietary laws. Furthermore, the New Testament shows a continuity with this idea. For example, Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

Or maybe I’m just missing something here?
 
Forgive me if this seems a trite way of speaking, or irreverent, but I’m trying to grasp this “new” concept. It’s in opposition to the way I was taught as a child, and as I have believed until recently. I have to admit that most Catholics I’ve spoken to about it start to sound like confused salesmen when I try to get simple answers. I tried to put it in simple words to see if I understand what I’ve read in the OCE and Catechism, and if these plain words capture it. I’m clear I may be wrong…but I don’t like equivocation and over-explanation. Am I wrong? Where? I’m I still too Protestant?

In the simplest of terms, no one gets to purgatory who wasn’t already headed for heaven by way of salvation by grace. It’s not a place to get saved after you missed the boat here. It is rather where most Christians would spend time being purified by fire, so to speak, in order to be prepared to be in the presence of God, since God can not look upon sin, and there is every likelihood that we will be carrying some small sin that we didn’t happen to acknowledge or ask forgiveness for while alive, however scrupulous we may have been.

Many sins are simply sins of omission, by default, we didn’t even know we did them, or others so much a part of our nature that they don’t occur to us as sinful. Consider the homeless person one may have stepped quickly past when it was the Lord or an angel presenting you an opportunity, just like an example, there are MANY of those, including me getting all uppity with someone about what I consider to be an error of doctrine or some such. I might remember that as a clever defense of the faith, God may remember someone who was turned away from faith that he then had to go and rescue…see what I mean? Purgatory cleans up a Christian’s ethereal being to prepare to be with God. At least that’s how I understand it. meh.

Yes, there are degrees of sin. Mortal, and venial. Killing someone, adultery, etc., mortal. Telling her the hat looks nice and she should wear it when it’s a high pile of orange fuzz and you know that everyone will laugh behind her back, or ignoring or failing to do what you could to help another, venial. All sin can be forgiven, but the consequences, either in this life or the next are inescapable. A killer convicted will be put to death or spend his life in prison, though he can be forgiven for his sins.

By the same token, a Christian who is a sinner will pay the consequences in life, but having failed to ask forgiveness, failing to repent, carries that sin into death. It would be “purged” by that fire. The scriptural basis, historical belief in, and the Church Traditions by which it has been accepted as doctrine are presented in that article. It’s not so much required as a point of salvation, and neither does purgatory get you saved after the fact. You don’t go there without having been saved in the first place. I don’t get it as a do over at all. We’re saved by grace or we go the other way. No exits.

Thanks. I want to have this right, among other things, and in terms I can explain to my 8 year old daughter in a little while, or to some biker I might speak to, not to a theologian or a Catholic at coffee with whom I doubt I’ll be discussing the state of his soul.
 
In the simplest of terms, no one gets to purgatory who wasn’t already headed for heaven by way of salvation by grace. It’s not a place to get saved after you missed the boat here. It is rather where most Christians would spend time being purified by fire, so to speak, in order to be prepared to be in the presence of God, since God can not look upon sin, and there is every likelihood that we will be carrying some small sin that we didn’t happen to acknowledge or ask forgiveness for while alive, however scrupulous we may have been.

Many sins are simply sins of omission, by default, we didn’t even know we did them, or others so much a part of our nature that they don’t occur to us as sinful. Consider the homeless person one may have stepped quickly past when it was the Lord or an angel presenting you an opportunity, just like an example, there are MANY of those, including me getting all uppity with someone about what I consider to be an error of doctrine or some such. I might remember that as a clever defense of the faith, God may remember someone who was turned away from faith that he then had to go and rescue…see what I mean? Purgatory cleans up a Christian’s ethereal being to prepare to be with God. At least that’s how I understand it. meh.

It’s not so much required as a point of salvation, and neither does purgatory get you saved after the fact. You don’t go there without having been saved in the first place. I don’t get it as a do over at all. We’re saved by grace or we go the other way. No exits.
I like your explanation. I think of it in terms of mortal and venial sin and God’s covenant.

*If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1 John 5:16-17)*Mortal sin is deadly in so far as it breaks God’s covenant. Venial sin is not deadly to our soul, does not rob us of sanctifying grace because it does not break God’s covenant. If you keep the convenant, you are good-to-go so to speak, though your residual imperfections and self love may have to be purged. Purgatory is consistent with a merciful God, who cannot be in the presence of any selfishness, self love or “Uncleanliness”, and wishing us to be with him, provides those who do not break his covenant a way to attain perfection and enter Heaven.

If you break the covenant… well… 🤷

-Tim-
 
It would seem the discussion is absent of temporal punishment, which can be done prior to death or may be carried over into purgatory. Many believe that if one is in purgatory they need the help of the Militant (living Church members) to cleanse the soul.

I am not aware of a Church teaching which saves anyone in Hell?
 
Don’t think it says that people get there without it, Texas Roofer.

Assuming you mean the explanation, how do you mean it’s absent of temporal punishment? If a man kills and gets prison for life, or we the consequence of lesser venial sins, is it that I am saying there might be some we get away with? I think maybe there are consequences for things like that as we may see as more or less the way things are. We don’t know what’s absent from life because of what we might have omitted, or by the commissions, what might be in it that wouldn’t had we sought forgiveness.

What do you mean?
 
Forgive me if this seems a trite way of speaking, or irreverent, but I’m trying to grasp this “new” concept. It’s in opposition to the way I was taught as a child, and as I have believed until recently. I have to admit that most Catholics I’ve spoken to about it start to sound like confused salesmen when I try to get simple answers. I tried to put it in simple words to see if I understand what I’ve read in the OCE and Catechism, and if these plain words capture it. I’m clear I may be wrong…but I don’t like equivocation and over-explanation. Am I wrong? Where? I’m I still too Protestant?

In the simplest of terms, no one gets to purgatory who wasn’t already headed for heaven by way of salvation by grace. It’s not a place to get saved after you missed the boat here. It is rather where most Christians would spend time being purified by fire,
why by fire
so to speak, in order to be prepared to be in the presence of God, since God can not look upon sin, and there is every likelihood that we will be carrying some small sin that we didn’t happen to acknowledge or ask forgiveness for while alive, however scrupulous we may have been.
Many sins are simply sins of omission, by default, we didn’t even know we did them, or others so much a part of our nature that they don’t occur to us as sinful.
remember that knowledge is a requirement of sin, so a sin of omission only occurs when we know we should have acted
Consider the homeless person one may have stepped quickly past when it was the Lord or an angel presenting you an opportunity, just like an example, there are MANY of those, including me getting all uppity with someone about what I consider to be an error of doctrine or some such. I might remember that as a clever defense of the faith, God may remember someone who was turned away from faith that he then had to go and rescue…see what I mean? Purgatory cleans up a Christian’s ethereal being to prepare to be with God. At least that’s how I understand it. meh.
Yes, there are degrees of sin. Mortal, and venial. Killing someone, adultery, etc., mortal. Telling her the hat looks nice and she should wear it when it’s a high pile of orange fuzz and you know that everyone will laugh behind her back, or ignoring or failing to do what you could to help another, venial. All sin can be forgiven, but the consequences, either in this life or the next are inescapable. A killer convicted will be put to death or spend his life in prison, though he can be forgiven for his sins.
The catechism implies being put to death does not fulfill one’s temporal punishment. This is found in the writings against the capital punishment
By the same token, a Christian who is a sinner will pay the consequences in life,
may or may not pay consequences during life. The Church does not teach God delivers individual punishment during life
but having failed to ask forgiveness, failing to repent, carries that sin into death. It would be “purged” by that fire. The scriptural basis, historical belief in, and the Church Traditions by which it has been accepted as doctrine are presented in that article. It’s not so much required as a point of salvation, and neither does purgatory get you saved after the fact. You don’t go there without having been saved in the first place. I don’t get it as a do over at all. We’re saved by grace or we go the other way. No exits.
Thanks. I want to have this right, among other things, and in terms I can explain to my 8 year old daughter in a little while, or to some biker I might speak to, not to a theologian or a Catholic at coffee with whom I doubt I’ll be discussing the state of his soul.
Don’t think it says that people get there without it, Texas Roofer.

Assuming you mean the explanation, how do you mean it’s absent of temporal punishment? If a man kills and gets prison for life, or we the consequence of lesser venial sins, is it that I am saying there might be some we get away with? I think maybe there are consequences for things like that as we may see as more or less the way things are. We don’t know what’s absent from life because of what we might have omitted, or by the commissions, what might be in it that wouldn’t had we sought forgiveness.

What do you mean?
I think you will find the Church teaches temporal punishment has to be fulfilled. If one commits grave sins, repents, and completes temporal punishment before death they can enter heaven. Similarly, if one dies with a single venial sin a cleansing occurs. What comprises that cleansing is unknown; however plenary indulgences can be used. So the man with a thousand sins can repent on his death bed and will pay the appropriate temporal punishment.

hope that helps
 
No. Purgatory offers no forgiveness of sins. It “cleanses” us of the damage done to our soul by sin which has already been confessed and/or forgiven. We cannot go to purgatory if we are not in a state of saving grace.

The problem is that sin is not just a one time thing that you do… it damages the soul in the process. This is why penance is SO important… because a proper penance seeks to undo some of the hurt and damage caused to the soul by the sin of the person. But a person cannot go to heaven with such an impurity if it remains, so any portion of venial sin or damage left by forgiven mortal sin must be purged from the soul before it can enter heaven.

So, all mortal sin must be forgiven BEFORE one enters into purgatory. Venial sin… we don’t know.
Wow. So if you wrap your car around a tree on your way to confess a mortal sin, you’re sunk? How does that work, exactly…is every accidental death a sentence to Hell?

That seems unpalatable enough I would imagine there is some sort of loophole, right?
 
Wow. So if you wrap your car around a tree on your way to confess a mortal sin, you’re sunk? How does that work, exactly…is every accidental death a sentence to Hell?

That seems unpalatable enough I would imagine there is some sort of loophole, right?
Only if you’re not on your way to confession 😃

Seriously, if you are on your way to confession when you are killed in a car crash, your sins would be forgiven since you are sorry. Of course, no one could offer proof of this, but it calls for trust in God’s mercy. Remember, the sacraments are necessary for our salvation, but God can also work outside the sacraments when necessary. That is how people who never heard of Christ wouldn’t be damned to hell for not believing in Christ. When the sacraments are out of our reach (like when your car is wrapped around a pole-LOL), God accepts what is in our hearts.
 
Only if you’re not on your way to confession 😃

Seriously, if you are on your way to confession when you are killed in a car crash, your sins would be forgiven since you are sorry. Of course, no one could offer proof of this, but it calls for trust in God’s mercy. Remember, the sacraments are necessary for our salvation, but God can also work outside the sacraments when necessary. That is how people who never heard of Christ wouldn’t be damned to hell for not believing in Christ. When the sacraments are out of our reach (like when your car is wrapped around a pole-LOL), God accepts what is in our hearts.
So if you just need to be sorry, is confession necessary? What if you’re sorry you’ve not gone to confession in a while?

I guess then, the only way a ‘Catholic in good standing’ would end up in Hell is if they died in a state of willful disobedience?

I’m assuming you mean sorry in a generic sense though, rather than the immediate feeling of remorse, right?
 
So if you just need to be sorry, is confession necessary? What if you’re sorry you’ve not gone to confession in a while?

I guess then, the only way a ‘Catholic in good standing’ would end up in Hell is if they died in a state of willful disobedience?

I’m assuming you mean sorry in a generic sense though, rather than the immediate feeling of remorse, right?
There are a couple of things here,1) the sin of presumption, 2) the abandoning the Church, and 3) being over scrupulous.
  1. Presumption is the idea you and you alone can handle it, since god knows how you feel you are good to go. Or said another way, You better be right as you are all you have.
  2. Abandoning the Church occurs in 2 forms first the Church has some ability to shield you provided you follow the Church, second once you start down the road picking through parts of the religion often referred to as “cafeteria” you open the door to disordered thinking. Disordered thinking is when one sins through a belief the sin is not sin for example excessive drug use, improper relations, etc. These issues are usually safeguarded by confession and Church teachings however once one starts implementing presumption then these remedies can be dismissed.
  3. Being over scrupulous is a common issue; it involves a belief that the perfect person is the only one who can obtain heaven. The problem of course is no one is perfect. So for us it is minimizing our participation in sin, asking for forgiveness, and performing our temporal punishment while still alive. Our temporal punishment is a series of many small individual actions as pray, worship, etc. combined with larger actions as penance and restitution for specific sins.
Hope that helps
 
There are a couple of things here,1) the sin of presumption, 2) the abandoning the Church, and 3) being over scrupulous.
  1. Presumption is the idea you and you alone can handle it, since god knows how you feel you are good to go. Or said another way, You better be right as you are all you have.
  2. Abandoning the Church occurs in 2 forms first the Church has some ability to shield you provided you follow the Church, second once you start down the road picking through parts of the religion often referred to as “cafeteria” you open the door to disordered thinking. Disordered thinking is when one sins through a belief the sin is not sin for example excessive drug use, improper relations, etc. These issues are usually safeguarded by confession and Church teachings however once one starts implementing presumption then these remedies can be dismissed.
  3. Being over scrupulous is a common issue; it involves a belief that the perfect person is the only one who can obtain heaven. The problem of course is no one is perfect. So for us it is minimizing our participation in sin, asking for forgiveness, and performing our temporal punishment while still alive. Our temporal punishment is a series of many small individual actions as pray, worship, etc. combined with larger actions as penance and restitution for specific sins.
Hope that helps
OK…so:

As long as the person genuinely attends to do what they are supposed to do at some point, they’re fine then, right?

So maybe my confusion to post #7 is that I assumed “mortal sin must be forgiven” = “confessed and in good standing” when what is actually being implied is that God will ?probably? decide to forgive any outstanding sins at time of death as long as the person is a member in good standing with the genuine desire to, at some point, officially repent?

So the idea is that God has to make a decision about whether to forgive the mortal sin(s) before the process of Purgatory purging can take place?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top