Question about Purgatory

[ComeHome2Rome]

Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God that forgives the sins of those who ask in or outside of the Mystery of Confession. (Catholics believe venial sin can be forgiven outside Confession & mortal can be too under a certain circumstance, otherwise, mortal must be confessed during Confession.)

Catholic theologian Scott Hahn explains purgatory is necessary through a story of a little boy who breaks his neighbor’s window. The boy can go to the neighbor, apologize and be forgiven, but the neighbor will still demand the boy pay to replace the window.

Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God who forgives everything. Jesus paid all of our debts.

Why do Catholics teach that after they have been forgiven by God something additional remains to be paid for or needs to be purged in purgatory? Why don’t Catholics believe that Jesus paid for those debts, too?

 

[MichaelHowling]

Because of the wounding nature of sin.

For instance… I’m a drunk and I give up drinking. I’m sorry and I’m forgiven…however the connection to that habit will usually still remain. If I can not get over it COMPLETELY…I’m not fully heald and whole.

Confession/asking for forgiveness in all sincerity removes the thorn…but the wound remains and God wants to make us whole. Purgatory exhists out of the grace of Gods mercy. If we die in the friendship of God, He will make up for what we lack and make us whole in purgatory.

Michael

 

[Zekariya]

Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God that forgives the sins of those who ask in or outside of the Mystery of Confession. (Catholics believe venial sin can be forgiven outside Confession & mortal can be too under a certain circumstance, otherwise, mortal must be confessed during Confession.)

Catholic theologian Scott Hahn explains purgatory is necessary through a story of a little boy who breaks his neighbor’s window. The boy can go to the neighbor, apologize and be forgiven, but the neighbor will still demand the boy pay to replace the window.

Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God who forgives everything. Jesus paid all of our debts.

Why do Catholics teach that after they have been forgiven by God something additional remains to be paid for or needs to be purged in purgatory? Why don’t Catholics believe that Jesus paid for those debts, too?

Matthew 5:25-26 Agree with your adversary quickly [penance/reparation], while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison [purgatory]. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there [purgatory] till you have paid the last penny [in reparation].

[brackets are mine]

 

[Zekariya]

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself [penance/reparation] or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes [longer purgatory]. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few [shorter purgatory]. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

[brackets are mine]

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Matthew 5:25-26 Agree with your adversary quickly [penance/reparation], while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison [purgatory]. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there [purgatory] till you have paid the last penny [in reparation].

[brackets are mine]

Thank you for the response. I believe you’re right this passage may be a reason Catholics teach purgatory.

Reading those verses in context with the passage, Jesus is speaking about during this life, not the next life: Matthew 5:23 “Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar…” In the next life, we won’t be bringing gifts to the altar as Jesus was the gift that ended all animal sacrifices. He is the Lamb of God.

Even if the Catholic interpretation of this verse is true, then we have another problem within the passage as it indicates that the person his/herself can themselves “pay every last penny”, but Catholic teaching is that a person in purgatory is unable to do anything for themselves, not even to pray for themselves.

Remember that this was the practice of the Jews to bring the gift of an animal to be slaughtered on the altar - the Eucharist celebration hadn’t yet been initiated when Jesus had spoken these words.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Yes, after this life, our ability to choose to other avenues ceases…we’ve made our decision by the lives we lead. Purgatory is a mercy of God and it’s this grace that does the work on the soul.

Because the soul is deprived of the beatific vision of God, the soul is purified by this sense of deprivation. The eye-opening fact that being away from God is far worse than the attachment to sin we have through addiction or whatever causes the purification of the soul who has died in the friendship of God and has chosen to be with God for eternity.

 

[Zekariya]

Even if the Catholic interpretation of this verse is true, then we have another problem within the passage as it indicates that the person his/herself can themselves “pay every last penny”, but Catholic teaching is that a person in purgatory is unable to do anything for themselves, not even to pray for themselves.

Actually, punishment in purgatory is paying every last penny just by being in there. We on earth can shorten their time there by our prayers.

Here is a good list of Scripture verses and Fathers used to support purgatory: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[MichaelHowling]

To piggy back on Zek,

We are able to help them because we are all one body in Christ…which goes of course beyond death

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

We are able to help them because we are all one body in Christ…which goes of course beyond death

Agreed! My question is why Catholics teach that once a sin is forgiven by God, that there’s anything left over which was not covered under that forgiveness?

 

[Zekariya]

Agreed! My question is why Catholics teach that once a sin is forgiven by God, that there’s anything left over which was not covered under that forgiveness?

Why do some EOs teach about toll houses?

 

[Genesis315]

First, if we are not punished in a cleansing way by God, we are not truly His sons (see Heb. 12:5-11). The Gospel also commands that not only do we repent, but we must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (see for example, Matt. 3:8, Luke 3:8, Acts 26:20). This is what the Catholic Church calls “satisfaction” and what is satisfied in Purgatory if not done in this life.
Ecumenical Council of Florence:

Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.]

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

As an aside, the Orthodox Churches teach this too–or at least used to:
the Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem:

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike.

crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

 

[zz912]

Agreed! My question is why Catholics teach that once a sin is forgiven by God, that there’s anything left over which was not covered under that forgiveness?

*2 Sam 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “For his part, the LORD has removed your sin. You shall not die, 14 but since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you will surely die.” 15 Then Nathan returned to his house.

The LORD struck the child that the wife of Uriah had borne to David, and it became desperately ill.*

Because even when the sin is forgiven, there are still temporal effects and punishments associated with that sin.

 

[PJM]

=ComeHome2Rome;10290687]Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God that forgives the sins of those who ask in or outside of the Mystery of Confession. (Catholics believe venial sin can be forgiven outside Confession & mortal can be too under a certain circumstance, otherwise, mortal must be confessed during Confession.)

Catholic theologian Scott Hahn explains purgatory is necessary through a story of a little boy who breaks his neighbor’s window. The boy can go to the neighbor, apologize and be forgiven, but the neighbor will still demand the boy pay to replace the window.

Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God who forgives everything. Jesus paid all of our debts.

Why do Catholics teach that after they have been forgiven by God something additional remains to be paid for or needs to be purged in purgatory? Why don’t Catholics believe that Jesus paid for those debts, too?

Lets first build a solid ROCK foundation for my reply

Because there is Only One God it is both logical anf Fact that their can be and IS only one right and true set of Faith beliefs. Limited space prohibits an extense explaination but lets look at just a few short passages that suppport this reality.

**Mt.10:1-2 **"And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother"

Mt.16:18-19 “And I [GOD] say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [YOU-PETER] I will build my church,[SINGULAR] … And I [GOD] will give to thee[ALONE] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Then in Jn. 14:16-17 Christ promises to send to HIS APOSTLES the HS; which He does in Jn. 20:21-22.

In Mk. 16:14-16 and Mt. 28:19-20 Jesus specifically and exclusively passes on His Own Authority and Powers AS GOD to His Apostles and through them to todays CC.

Mk. "At length he appeared to the eleven [Aostles] as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. ** And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature**. **Mt. **“Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

For the first 900 years or so of the Churches existence there was only "One set of Faith beliefs; One Church and One head of the Church; Peter and his successors… Ck. This site out:
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm

“Sin is always a Public offense; even when hidden” God know of the harm done to others and to His Church and debt is thus incurred.

So there are two seperate and yet unable to be seperated issues to understand.

Sin and its forgiveness which is immediate and total through the Sacramnent of Confession [only in this manner]**

And the “effects of sin on others” and the necessary retruibation they create.

Take for example all of the following and how they effect others

Swearing
Missing Sunday and HD Mass on purpose
Lies
Gossip
Theft
Adultry
Pre-marital sex
Abortion
Greed
and so on…

Each damages others besides the sinner and thus requires a “pay-back”. Even though the sin irself has been forgiven and forgotten this Temporal Debt remains and must be payd for.

In giving to Peter and the CC the “key’s” to heaven and ALL of the essential Powers needed to Govern the Church and to save Souls for Christ; God permits “the Church” to both Speak for and to Act on His behalf Mt. 16:19-20; Mt. 28:19-20

Because the Church is Guided by the HS and Jesus Himself Jn.17: 15-19 She is empowered to address this issue in accordance with Gods Will: SAVE AS MANY SOULS as will Obey Me fully!

So Good Works, sacrifices, Fasting, Prayer, Eucharistic Adoration, Bible reading and much more all WORK in repayins this debt for sins committed.

The Church provides these means and Indulgences to reply the “banker / Christ Alone”. That’s the unkonwn factor. HOW much dept do we Owe? And How MUCH creidt God issues towards these debts based on the above. ONLY GOD KNOWS [emphaisis; not shouting].

Indulgences and the Last Rites; AFTER having received the Sacrament of Baptism which erases both all sins and their Temporal Punishment, until one sins again; are the manner Mother Church and God give us to perfect our Souls and thus be enabled to access heaven; assuming of course there are no unconfessed mortal sins to be Sacramentally Forgiven

God Bless and thanks for asking

Pat/PJM

 

[Augustine3]

Agreed! My question is why Catholics teach that once a sin is forgiven by God, that there’s anything left over which was not covered under that forgiveness?

Jesus died for our sins yet our fallen nature remains. Nothing impure can behold God’s presence, thus we must be purified in purgatory first.

God bless,

 

[Augustine3]

I’m curious, why do the Christian Orthodox have prayers attached to funerals if they don’t believe in Purgatory?

 

[Vico]

The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is a state of existence after our bodily death, where we purge our unhealthy attachment to creatures. (See CCC 1472.) They are all saved that are in that state.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Why do some EOs teach about toll houses?

Tollhouses is a very different concept that Purgatory…

A quick snap shot: After death, the soul ascends with their Guardian Angel and come to one Tollhouse after another. Each Tollhouses has a different demon (of lust, of gluttony, etc) and that demon test & accuse the soul after death of each time in thought, word or deed the soul committed that particular sin and the Guardian Angel is there to combat the accusations by recalling all the times of repentance the soul had made for those sins & “pays”, if the soul is found to have unrepented sin then the demon takes the soul to hell a place where the soul awaits in fear the resurrection, not purgatory or heaven and if the soul is found to have repented of all sin, then he/she proceeds toward God where he/she joyfully awaits the resurrection.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’m curious, why do the Christian Orthodox have prayers attached to funerals if they don’t believe in Purgatory?

Because of what the soul is going through at the time of the funeral & the 40th day those prayers are offered. The Soul has just had the most unnatural thing happen, it’s been severed from the Body. Also, prayers are beneficial for those who have died in the faith, but had not yet repented of all sin. St. Mark of Ephesus and many other Sts. explain it much better than I can.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I’m curious, why do the Christian Orthodox have prayers attached to funerals if they don’t believe in Purgatory?

Because it is possible to believe that sins can be forgiven after death without believing in purgatory. Purgatory is quite foreign to the Orthodox faith. There is even one humorous historical event mentioned by Aristeides Papadakis where during the eleventh century, a Latin monk was trying to explain the concept of purgatory to a Greek bishop. The bishop was so unable to think of any analogue in the Greek language for this teaching that he had to resort to transliterating the word in Greek as ‘porgatorion’ in order to record his conversation with the monk.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself [penance/reparation] or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes [longer purgatory]. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few [shorter purgatory]. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

[brackets are mine]

That passage refers not to purgatory, but to everlasting punishment after the final judgment. As St. Cyril of Alexandria interprets it, this passage refers to the burden placed upon teachers (i.e., the clergy). Those who are in a position to teach, if they neglect Christ’s flock, are liable to lead people into perdition, and this is why such unfaithful servants are severed and given the same lot as the unbelievers, as verse 46 says. The lesser and greater stripes according to St. Cyril is not related to any sort of temporal punishment remitted in purgatory, but is meant to show that if even those who knew not the master’s will are accounted to be guilty of transgressing against it (for it was in their power to learn of the master’s will), then those who knew the master’s will (teachers) and disobeyed have no hope of escaping the punishment referred to in the previous verse (to receive the lot of the unbelievers).