Question about rape by proxy

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I am not sure how you don’t make the connection.
  1. they are both under duress
  2. they are both forced to do something that would normally be evil
Easy. One group chooses to work (not sin) while the other chooses to enact a violent act against another by raping her (sin). They are unrelated. Now, if the prisoners in the prison camps were instructed to kill each other and the winner eats, that would have been a different scenario. Instead of attempting to justify sin by pointing to an unrelated scenario, focus on the one presented here and realize it is a sinful, and willful, act committed by someone who can and should refuse.

Maybe the world is filled with weak minded people with no fortitude and no faith and I just don’t know about it, but I am not one of those people. If someone else is, they must understand they are now and will be later accountable for their actions. Raping someone is a sin, and violent and cruel act against another person…period.
 
During the Nanking massacre, the in aiding Japanese soldiers forced people to rape each other by threatening to kill them both otherwise. The Chinese men in Nanking did not want to do that, the would not have if it wouldn’t save someone else’s life.

Can you honestly say that the Chinese men in Nanking are going to hell for something they neither wanted to do nor would have done if not coerced?

Temporarily forgetting the whole rape aspect, why do people say ‘not my problem’ when confronted with the fact that someone else might die if you say ‘no’. It is like Pilot washing his hands and pretending that he is not partially responsible for Jesus’s death.

In my personal opinion, the male captive is more a rape victim than a rapist. Rape is defined as forcing someone to have unwanted sex: the male captive in this scenario is being forced to have unwanted sex.

Anyway, I am glad we can all be civil about this.
 
Easy. One group chooses to work (not sin) while the other chooses to enact a violent act against another by raping her (sin). They are unrelated. Now, if the prisoners in the prison camps were instructed to kill each other and the winner eats, that would have been a different scenario. Instead of attempting to justify sin by pointing to an unrelated scenario, focus on the one presented here and realize it is a sinful, and willful, act committed by someone who can and should refuse.
The “work” supported the Germans/Nazis war effort. If someone of their own free will chose to do it would be considered sinful. The “work” was not sinful because the did it under duress, not of their free will.

The male captive is not acting willfully when he has a gun to his head.
 
Can you honestly say that the Chinese men in Nanking are going to hell for something they neither wanted to do nor would have done if not coerced?
I don’t think anyone here is judging hearts. I think we are saying it would be sinful. That doesn’t mean they would automatically “go to hell,” or that they are evil people. I sin without a gun to my head. Hopefully, that doesn’t mean I’m automatically going to hell.
Temporarily forgetting the whole rape aspect, why do people say ‘not my problem’ when confronted with the fact that someone else might die if you say ‘no’. It is like Pilot washing his hands and pretending that he is not partially responsible for Jesus’s death.
What you’re referring to is a matter of attitude. It’s just easier to dismiss any weakness. That said, Pilot is definitely culpable according to the logic we’ve been discussing in this scenario. I think we can be both objective in reasoning and sympathetic at heart when discussing such matters. Do I think that doing evil under a gun is sinful? Absolutely. Do I think its a very challenging situation given the stakes and that I might also falter under such conditions? Absolutely!
In my personal opinion, the male captive is more a rape victim than a rapist. Rape is defined as forcing someone to have unwanted sex: the male captive in this scenario is being forced to have unwanted sex.
I don’t think we are denying that the kidnapped are both victims and that by obeying the kidnapper, the kidnapped become victims of even more evil, although they also become instruments of evil as well. As I said earlier, I think their culpability would be (greatly) diminished, but not nil.
 
Easy. One group chooses to work (not sin)
I’m not sure you are aware what some of this “work” entailed…

That said, I think debating culpability in extreme situations like this is futile. If you put someone in enough stress, their actions won’t be their own, and culpability is often diminished, if existing at all. Generally, I’d say the man would be (more) culpable if the woman protests, and not (or less) culpable if the woman “consents”, which isn’t entirely unrealistic. I would say the same about situations when a hostage is forced to kill someone else under the same pretense. It is not unthinkable that a parent would tell their child to save themself, and I would be very slow to judge the child in such situations. But in either case, when in extreme situations, people do things they wouldn’t otherwise have done, KZ camps being a prime and very comparable example. Culpability can’t be accurately placed in hypothetical discussions.
 
Attempt to find loopholes, it won’t work. If you want to dissect various scenarios, that’s fine, but if a man rapes a woman, it’s sin, it’s wrong and he will be held responsible for his action.

Chase rabbits down rabbit holes with someone else, but I prefer to stick with the topic at hand. Rape is sin, period.
 
Attempt to find loopholes, it won’t work. If you want to dissect various scenarios, that’s fine, but if a man rapes a woman, it’s sin, it’s wrong and he will be held responsible for his action.

Chase rabbits down rabbit holes with someone else, but I prefer to stick with the topic at hand. Rape is sin, period.
No one is saying rape is not sin. But as a Catholic, I’m sure you’re aware that even if something is objectively a sin, culpability may be reduced, or even nonexistent, given the circumstances. In the case of rape, the circumstances would have to be more than extreme to diminish culpability, and in my opinion, if the female hostage does not “agree” (as in ask the man to comply, either to save herself, him or both), I think the man would most certainly be culpable of sin if he complied.

But I’m afraid “[insert action] is sin, period” doesn’t work in Catholic theology. There is always the question of culpability.

Lastly, while it’s not really a debate I find very interesting (I mainly joined in to point out that your knowledge of what went on in some of the “work” groups in KZ camps was seemingly flawed), it not a rabbit hole. Situations like these happen.
 
No one is saying rape is not sin. But as a Catholic, I’m sure you’re aware that even if something is objectively a sin, culpability may be reduced, or even nonexistent, given the circumstances. In the case of rape, the circumstances would have to be more than extreme to diminish culpability, and in my opinion, if the female hostage does not “agree” (as in ask the man to comply, either to save herself, him or both), I think the man would most certainly be culpable of sin if he complied.

But I’m afraid “[insert action] is sin, period” doesn’t work in Catholic theology. There is always the question of culpability.

Lastly, while it’s not really a debate I find very interesting (I mainly joined in to point out that your knowledge of what went on in some of the “work” groups in KZ camps was seemingly flawed), it not a rabbit hole. Situations like these happen.
When you have a choice and you make the evil choice, it’s wrong and you are culpable. When you have the ability to resist, you resist. Unless they physically manhandle him into the action against his will while he resists, it’s wrong. Even if, which would not be the case, it wasn’t rape, which it would be, it’s still a sinful sexual act. There is no way around this.

Let’s look at another scenario, since it seems to be a good idea to introduce different scenarios, but I will at least attempt to keep this one related. Someone breaks into a home and holds the family captive. The father is killed and there are three children in the home. The mother is told to shoot one of them and the other two can live. Which one should she choose to murder? None, it’s murder. She resists and refuses, even if it means they all are going to die. Let the sin fall on the ones doing the killing, not on the victims. This doesn’t even work well in court, so much less it would work in the eyes of the Lord.

Peter, the one trusted with the keys to the kingdom, denied Christ three times out of fear, yet he was ashamed. Why? Because he knew he was wrong. Was he forgiven? Of course, but it was still wrong. This goes back to the discussion of action and denying the faith. We are not called to be Christians while it is easy, but when it is most difficult. Men of no faith have lived years as prisoners of war and never submitted under the most cruel torture imaginable. Are we, people of faith, Christians, Catholics, less than mere flesh with no faith in God? Look at all the martyrs who went willingly to their death because they refused to compromise.
 
Just to think this through a bit more, and especially for those who have said that the man should not commit the rape, even to prevent the killing, because one cannot do evil simply for a good end, please consider the following changes to the hypothetical and comment on whether it changes your response.

Instead of being coerced to rape the woman, the man is coerced to:
A. Rob a bank
B. Slap the woman
C. Steal a pack of gum
D. J-walk

All of these acts too are wrong. But does the degree of wrong come into play?
 
When you have a choice and you make the evil choice, it’s wrong and you are culpable. When you have the ability to resist, you resist. Unless they physically manhandle him into the action against his will while he resists, it’s wrong. Even if, which would not be the case, it wasn’t rape, which it would be, it’s still a sinful sexual act. There is no way around this.

Let’s look at another scenario, since it seems to be a good idea to introduce different scenarios, but I will at least attempt to keep this one related. Someone breaks into a home and holds the family captive. The father is killed and there are three children in the home. The mother is told to shoot one of them and the other two can live. Which one should she choose to murder? None, it’s murder. She resists and refuses, even if it means they all are going to die. Let the sin fall on the ones doing the killing, not on the victims. This doesn’t even work well in court, so much less it would work in the eyes of the Lord.

Peter, the one trusted with the keys to the kingdom, denied Christ three times out of fear, yet he was ashamed. Why? Because he knew he was wrong. Was he forgiven? Of course, but it was still wrong. This goes back to the discussion of action and denying the faith. We are not called to be Christians while it is easy, but when it is most difficult. Men of no faith have lived years as prisoners of war and never submitted under the most cruel torture imaginable. Are we, people of faith, Christians, Catholics, less than mere flesh with no faith in God? Look at all the martyrs who went willingly to their death because they refused to compromise.
First, culpability isn’t binary, at least not in Catholic teaching.

Second, if someone is forced (which can be psychological, you don’t need to “manhandle” someone to rob them of their free will), Catholic teaching is crystal clear that culpability may be, and often is, diminished or even not present. It would all depend on the particular circumstances of what happened.

Third, I doubt we’ll agree, so I see little point in continuing this.
 
First, culpability isn’t binary, at least not in Catholic teaching.
Hmm… is there an echo in here? 😉
Second, if someone is forced (which can be psychological, you don’t need to “manhandle” someone to rob them of their free will), Catholic teaching is crystal clear that culpability may be, and often is, diminished or even not present.
Precisely! To say “a sin is a sin” is correct – but it speaks to the objective gravity of the action. To turn around and infer culpability (a subjective consideration) as if ‘culpability’ were identical to ‘gravity’ is an error in this case. In fact, when we speak of culpability, the consideration of ‘deliberate intent’ is critical!
 
Just to think this through a bit more, and especially for those who have said that the man should not commit the rape, even to prevent the killing, because one cannot do evil simply for a good end, please consider the following changes to the hypothetical and comment on whether it changes your response.

Instead of being coerced to rape the woman, the man is coerced to:
A. Rob a bank
B. Slap the woman
C. Steal a pack of gum
D. J-walk

All of these acts too are wrong. But does the degree of wrong come into play?
For culpability sake? No. Again, if the Catholic Church has produced something negating the responsibility of the sin for someone being coerced, I would be happy and willing to read the material, otherwise, each is responsible for their actions and choices when done deliberately.
 
Originally Posted by Nacho45 View Post
When you have a choice and you make the evil choice, it’s wrong and you are culpable. When you have the ability to resist, you resist. Unless they physically manhandle him into the action against his will while he resists, it’s wrong. Even if, which would not be the case, it wasn’t rape, which it would be, it’s still a sinful sexual act. There is no way around this.
Let’s look at another scenario, since it seems to be a good idea to introduce different scenarios, but I will at least attempt to keep this one related. Someone breaks into a home and holds the family captive. The father is killed and there are three children in the home. The mother is told to shoot one of them and the other two can live. Which one should she choose to murder? None, it’s murder. She resists and refuses, even if it means they all are going to die. Let the sin fall on the ones doing the killing, not on the victims. This doesn’t even work well in court, so much less it would work in the eyes of the Lord.
Peter, the one trusted with the keys to the kingdom, denied Christ three times out of fear, yet he was ashamed. Why? Because he knew he was wrong. Was he forgiven? Of course, but it was still wrong. This goes back to the discussion of action and denying the faith. We are not called to be Christians while it is easy, but when it is most difficult. Men of no faith have lived years as prisoners of war and never submitted under the most cruel torture imaginable. Are we, people of faith, Christians, Catholics, less than mere flesh with no faith in God? Look at all the martyrs who went willingly to their death because they refused to compromise.
First, culpability isn’t binary, at least not in Catholic teaching.

Second, if someone is forced (which can be psychological, you don’t need to “manhandle” someone to rob them of their free will), Catholic teaching is crystal clear that culpability may be, and often is, diminished or even not present. It would all depend on the particular circumstances of what happened.

Third, I doubt we’ll agree, so I see little point in continuing this.
For clarification purposes, are you saying it’s okay for the mother to murder one of her children and no responsibility falls on her for that murder? If so, how does she choose which child to kill?
 
if the Catholic Church has produced something negating the responsibility of the sin for someone being coerced, I would be happy and willing to read the material, .
From the Catechism on US Bishops website:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Do you think a captor holding a gun to your head may qualify as external pressure!!!🤷
 
Just to think this through a bit more, and especially for those who have said that the man should not commit the rape, even to prevent the killing, because one cannot do evil simply for a good end, please consider the following changes to the hypothetical and comment on whether it changes your response.

Instead of being coerced to rape the woman, the man is coerced to:
A. Rob a bank
B. Slap the woman
C. Steal a pack of gum
D. J-walk

All of these acts too are wrong. But does the degree of wrong come into play?
That’s an interesting question. I think we are dealing with two things here. The Principle of the matter and the moral consequences of those actions.

If a kidnapper gave me an ultimatum to do any of these things or he’d kill the woman, the principle remains the same. He is still in control, not me (unless I can forcibly take control), and what HE does is his moral responsibility, not mine. If I refuse to slap the woman and he kills the woman, I think the person who asks “Why did you refuse to slap the woman?!” doesn’t understand that I had nothing to do with the death of that woman, morally or physically. On practical terms, its also not good policy to try to “appease” evil. You compliance with evil will not usually lead to anything good.

That said, a REAL situation contains hundreds of variables and is hardly ever a textbook case. For example, if the kidnapper is not “evil” but merely suffering from some sort of mental problem, that complicates matters. Then it becomes more of an issue of dealing with that person’s condition to restore order and sanity.

Personally, I would do any of the things you listed to save a life, and I would face the consequences for those actions. But if this woman badly needed a special gum to save her life and I didn’t have time to get the money to pay for it, that is a morally different scenario than stealing a pack of gum as some kind of arbitrary condition of the kidnapper to save the woman, because there HE has the moral responsibility of killing her, not I.

For example, if I were the kidnapper and decided whether to kill a woman or not based on a coin toss, the coin has no moral responsibility for my action, not only because it is not a person, but because its actions have no direct consequences on my actions. My decision to decide what my actions will be based on a coin toss is completely arbitrary, as would be my decision to kill a woman if someone else didn’t rape, slap or insult her or rob a bank.

But if, though no arbitrary decision of my own or another moral agent, this woman needed money for a drug, for instance, as in the classical psychology question, I needed to cause property theft that is another matter. When body guards protect a person, they have no problem pushing people aside, even old ladies and little girls, and in fact, they often go specifically for the weak, because they are easier to push aside than big, burly men. Provided I didn’t purposely kill someone in the process, I would have no problem making the same decision to save a life.

We are told that abortion is not right even if a woman was raped. Why? Because a life is worth inconvenience, and even undue expense, even when that life was not brought about on purpose. I would slap twenty angry men while jay walking to save someone from dying. But not to appease an evil kidnapper who may or may not spare her life.
 
From the Catechism on US Bishops website:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Do you think a captor holding a gun to your head may qualify as external pressure!!!🤷
I think you may be reading a tad bit too much into this.
 
From the Catechism on US Bishops website:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Do you think a captor holding a gun to your head may qualify as external pressure!!!🤷
This answers my question.
 
This answers my question.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t support the claim, but as long as you are happy with the wrong answer I guess its okay. With the loosely defined interpretation of “external pressure”, anything can be claimed as such eliminating the culpability of all sin. It just doesn’t work this way. Good luck trying to convince the victim of the rape her rapist isn’t guilty.
 
For clarification purposes, are you saying it’s okay for the mother to murder one of her children and no responsibility falls on her for that murder? If so, how does she choose which child to kill?
Under the circumstances, I thought this would have been easy to answer.
 
1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: “What is this that you have done?” 29 He asked Cain the same question. 30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered. 31

An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.
 
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