Question about religion in ancient Israel

[minichibi]

There is one last thing that still troubles me about Christianity, I have asked this before but I never got any satisfactory answer. I’m copying this directly from Wikipedia, as it is able to address my problem better than I can type:

Recognized scholars have formulated a substantial case for ancient Israel’s practice of monolatry.[3]
“The highest claim to be made for Moses is that he was, rather than a monotheist, a monolatrist. … The attribution of fully developed monotheism to Moses is certainly going beyond the evidence.”[4]
“As absolute monotheism took over from monolatry in Israel, those who had originally been in the pantheon of the gods were demoted to the status of angels.”[5]
“The exclusivity of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel is an important element in Israel’s oldest religious tradition. However, it is not necessary to ascribe the present formulation of the commandment “you shall have no other gods before me”] to a very early stage of the tradition, nor is it advantageous to interpret the commandment as if it inculcated monotheism. The commandment technically enjoins monolatry, but it can be understood within a henotheistic religious system.”[6]
“The Deuteronomic Code imposes at the least a strict monolatry.”[7]
“In the ancient Near East the existence of divine beings was universally accepted without questions. As for unicity, in Israel there is no clear and unambiguous denial of the existence of gods other than Yahweh before Deutero-Isaiah in the 6th century B.C. … The question was not whether there is only one elohim, but whether there is any elohim like Yahweh.”[8]
This was recognised by Rashi in his commentary to Deuteronomy 6:4 that the declaration of Shema accepts belief in one god as being only a part of Jewish faith at the time of Moses, but would eventually be accepted by all humanity.[9]
Some scholars claim the Torah (Pentateuch) shows evidence of monolatrism in some passages. This argument is normally based on references to other gods, such as the “gods of the Egyptians” in the Book of Exodus (Exodus 12:12). The Egyptians are also attributed powers that suggest the existence of their gods; in Exodus 7:11-13, after Aaron transforms his staff into a snake, Pharaoh’s magicians do likewise.
The Ten Commandments have been interpreted[by whom?] as monolatry: Exodus 20:3 reads “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” (emphasis added).
There is even a passage in the Book of Psalms, Psalms 86:8, that reads “Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.”
This, however, does not seem to mean that the other gods were considered to deserve this name, in the sense that they had no real power or property; and later prophet Jeremiah confirms that they did not create the Earth and are going to perish.
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine —Exodus 19:5
Tell them this: “These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
—Jeremiah 10:11

Israel was not relly monotheistic, but rather monolatrist? Even God recognized the existence of other Gods but “wanted” all attention/worship to Him? Archaeology found idols of other gods being worshipped in Israel that time, even Asherah/Astarot was considered Yahweh’s consort.

 

[meltzerboy]

There is one last thing that still troubles me about Christianity, I have asked this before but I never got any satisfactory answer. I’m copying this directly from Wikipedia, as it is able to address my problem better than I can type:

Recognized scholars have formulated a substantial case for ancient Israel’s practice of monolatry.[3]
“The highest claim to be made for Moses is that he was, rather than a monotheist, a monolatrist. … The attribution of fully developed monotheism to Moses is certainly going beyond the evidence.”[4]
“As absolute monotheism took over from monolatry in Israel, those who had originally been in the pantheon of the gods were demoted to the status of angels.”[5]
“The exclusivity of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel is an important element in Israel’s oldest religious tradition. However, it is not necessary to ascribe the present formulation of the commandment “you shall have no other gods before me”] to a very early stage of the tradition, nor is it advantageous to interpret the commandment as if it inculcated monotheism. The commandment technically enjoins monolatry, but it can be understood within a henotheistic religious system.”[6]
“The Deuteronomic Code imposes at the least a strict monolatry.”[7]
“In the ancient Near East the existence of divine beings was universally accepted without questions. As for unicity, in Israel there is no clear and unambiguous denial of the existence of gods other than Yahweh before Deutero-Isaiah in the 6th century B.C. … The question was not whether there is only one elohim, but whether there is any elohim like Yahweh.”[8]
This was recognised by Rashi in his commentary to Deuteronomy 6:4 that the declaration of Shema accepts belief in one god as being only a part of Jewish faith at the time of Moses, but would eventually be accepted by all humanity.[9]
Some scholars claim the Torah (Pentateuch) shows evidence of monolatrism in some passages. This argument is normally based on references to other gods, such as the “gods of the Egyptians” in the Book of Exodus (Exodus 12:12). The Egyptians are also attributed powers that suggest the existence of their gods; in Exodus 7:11-13, after Aaron transforms his staff into a snake, Pharaoh’s magicians do likewise.
The Ten Commandments have been interpreted[by whom?] as monolatry: Exodus 20:3 reads “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” (emphasis added).
There is even a passage in the Book of Psalms, Psalms 86:8, that reads “Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.”
This, however, does not seem to mean that the other gods were considered to deserve this name, in the sense that they had no real power or property; and later prophet Jeremiah confirms that they did not create the Earth and are going to perish.
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine —Exodus 19:5
Tell them this: “These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
—Jeremiah 10:11

Israel was not relly monotheistic, but rather monolatrist? Even God recognized the existence of other Gods but “wanted” all attention/worship to Him? Archaeology found idols of other gods being worshipped in Israel that time, even Asherah/Astarot was considered Yahweh’s consort.

I believe this to be the case. The Judaism that eventually triumphally emerged apart from the pagan world–Pharisaic Judaism–was but one of over twenty different Judaisms. One should understand that the tenets of Judaism were in the process of being formed much like the tenets of Christianity were not fully formed at the start. Even the most basic dogma of monotheism was probably not completely developed at first.

 

[bzkoss236]

Also, what is being pointed out in these verses is that God is the one true God, and the Jeremiah verse at the end is a way of stating that the other gods are man-made and will degrade or disappear over time because they are not the true God.

 

[patrick457]

Israel was not relly monotheistic, but rather monolatrist? Even God recognized the existence of other Gods but “wanted” all attention/worship to Him? Archaeology found idols of other gods being worshipped in Israel that time, even Asherah/Astarot was considered Yahweh’s consort.

Yes, there is certainly that idea, although I would categorize it more as “henotheist” rather than “monolatrous.” There’s a sort of fine line between henotheism and monolatry which kind of makes it confusing: henotheism involves believing in and worshipping only one god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities that may also be worshipped by other people; monolatry, by contrast, involves believing in a plethora of gods but consistently worshipping only one of these divinities.

I personally don’t see any problem in thinking that ‘official’ orthodox Yhwism, as represented by the state, the priests and the prophets, is at first strictly henotheistic (Yhwh is the national God and the only one worthy of worship; there might be other gods out there who are worshipped by other peoples, but the Israelites should stick with their own divinity) before it metamorphosed into true monotheism (there is only one single God and no other) as time went on, while folk beliefs tended to be more open and syncretic, thereby explaining Asherah being paired with Yhwh as His consort and other stuff. Which results of course in established orthodoxy clashing with these popular-level ‘heterodoxies’. (The prophetic condemnation of idol worship would probably fall under this rubric.) I mean, that’s the kind of thing you often had in the ancient world. Why should you expect something different?

 

[minichibi]

I believe this to be the case. The Judaism that eventually triumphally emerged apart from the pagan world–Pharisaic Judaism–was but one of over twenty different Judaisms. One should understand that the tenets of Judaism were in the process of being formed much like the tenets of Christianity were not fully formed at the start. Even the most basic dogma of monotheism was probably not completely developed at first.

Were there still polytheistic Jewish sects even after the exile, let’s say, until the first century C.E. as well? Were the essenes and saduccees and zealots polytheistic as well? If so, what makes the surviving line of Judaism we know of today as the correct one just because it survived? Then, certainly the Jews didn’t inovate with a pure monotheistic religion as thought, but it evolved over time?

 

[minichibi]

Yes, there is certainly that idea, although I would categorize it more as “henotheist” rather than “monolatrous.” There’s a sort of fine line between henotheism and monolatry which kind of makes it confusing: henotheism involves believing in and worshipping only one god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities that may also be worshipped by other people; monolatry, by contrast, involves believing in a plethora of gods but consistently worshipping only one of these divinities.

I personally don’t see any problem in thinking that ‘official’ orthodox Yhwism, as represented by the state, the priests and the prophets, is at first strictly henotheistic (Yhwh is the national God and the only one worthy of worship; there might be other gods out there who are worshipped by other peoples, but the Israelites should stick with their own divinity) before it metamorphosed into true monotheism (there is only one single God and no other) as time went on, while folk beliefs tended to be more open and syncretic, thereby explaining Asherah being paired with Yhwh as His consort and other stuff. Which results of course in established orthodoxy clashing with these popular-level ‘heterodoxies’. (The prophetic condemnation of idol worship would probably fall under this rubric.) I mean, that’s the kind of thing you often had in the ancient world. Why should you expect something different?

Let me see if I got this right. In other words, you are saying this: Israel folks worshipping other gods is a result of their contact with the neighbor folks who were pagans, so they assimilated their gods and their culture. Idol worshipping doesn’t mean there are truly other gods, but that Israel folks that are not the priests and the prophets didn’t know their God well and insisted in worshipping other gods, even after the prophes warned them?
If that is the case, why didn’t God state clearly “there are no other Gods, these are nothing but human imagination, I’m the only true God that exists out there!”? The people of Israel blamed the worship of other Gods over their catastrophes, while it doesn’t seem to be the case, just their own interpretation of the disgrace that fell upon them.

 

[patrick457]

Were there still polytheistic Jewish sects even after the exile, let’s say, until the first century C.E. as well? Were the essenes and saduccees and zealots polytheistic as well? If so, what makes the surviving line of Judaism we know of today as the correct one just because it survived? Then, certainly the Jews didn’t inovate with a pure monotheistic religion as thought, but it evolved over time?

No. The thing is that after the Exile, monotheism became established, so that by the time of Jesus, common Judaism entailed a belief in only one God, the special status of the Jewish people, and the authority of the Mosaic Law. Where these various Judaism/s differed was not so much orthodoxy (correct belief) but orthopraxy (correct practice).

 

[patrick457]

Let me see if I got this right. In other words, you are saying this: Israel folks worshipping other gods is a result of their contact with the neighbor folks who were pagans, so they assimilated their gods and their culture. Idol worshipping doesn’t mean there are truly other gods, but that Israel folks that are not the priests and the prophets didn’t know their God well and insisted in worshipping other gods, even after the prophes warned them?

More or less. You could argue that ‘popular’ Yhwists wouldn’t have had much of a trouble with what they’re doing. They could simply answer that “Yhwh takes care of the stuff He’s good for, but Hadad (ba’al)'s in charge of this other stuff” or even “Yhwh and Hadad are probably just the same god anyway, so who cares?”

If that is the case, why didn’t God state clearly “there are no other Gods, these are nothing but human imagination, I’m the only true God that exists out there!”?

I can’t and won’t presume to know God’s mind, but let’s just say that apparently, God does not believe in human ‘common sense’. You might as well ask why God bothered to stick with the animal sacrifices and the horned altars and the ‘primitive’ cosmology common in the ANE when He could have just introduced the Israelites to advanced theology, biology or geography.

The way I see it, I think that God really allows people to mature and come to a fuller knowledge of Him on their own instead of cramming solid food down their throats. To repeat a tired old cliche, you wouldn’t feed a newborn baby a bucket of KFC or a Big Mac or a steak, would you?

The people of Israel blamed the worship of other Gods over their catastrophes, while it doesn’t seem to be the case, just their own interpretation of the disgrace that fell upon them.

Who do you think wrote of this blaming the worship of other gods for national disasters? Obviously not the folks who did.

 

[minichibi]

The way I see it, I think that God really allows people to mature and come to a fuller knowledge of Him on their own instead of cramming solid food down their throats. To repeat a tired old cliche, you wouldn’t feed a newborn baby a bucket of KFC or a Big Mac or a steak, would you?

Yes, and that might explain the evolution, why God created an evolving universe, with a logical sequence, with beginning, climax, and end (end?), instead of a ready-to-go universe. Maybe God want us to grow up and learn.

Who do you think wrote of this blaming the worship of other gods for national disasters? Obviously not the folks who did.

The Chronists, mainly. And the prophets.

 

[patrick457]

The Chronists, mainly. And the prophets.

And there’s your answer.

 

[minichibi]

Thank you, patrick :extrahappy: