Question about salvation and works

[Katiethemule]

Hello everyone,

I am still trying to grasp the Catholic view point on salvation and its relationship with works. I have read many of the tracts on the Catholic Answers website but I still feel like I haven’t had a “click” moment that has led me to truly and fully understand the correlation between the two. The best I could do is come up with an analogy.
Lets compare salvation and eternal life in communion with God in Heaven to a tree. Faith and Grace are the seed of this tree, and works (observance of the sacraments, penance, good deeds, etc.) are the water the allows this tree to grow and come to full fruition. Just as faith without deeds is dead, the seed will be dead if it is not tended to with works, and will simply remain in this dormant state. Would you say this is an accurate analogy and description of the Catholic faith? I would really appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks,

Katie

 

[DavidFilmer]

The analogy is somewhat flawed because the “water” also requires faith and Grace.

This analogy treats faith and Grace as one-time events (ie, the protestant idea of once-saved, always-saved, beginning with some sort of conversion experience). In Catholic theology, Faith and Grace (and conversion) are ongoing. It is not something that is planted once from which we draw during our lives. We are constantly being infused with Grace (most notably through the Eucharist). We are constantly responding to God by Faith - not faith that we had once, years ago, but Faith we have today.

Works are our response to the free will that God has given us. The concept of free will is at the heart of the faith/works doctrine. You cannot consider this doctrine without also considering free will. The Catholic understanding of works has much more to do with our understanding of free will than it has to do with our understanding of Faith.

It is not enough to simply acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Jesus himself assures us, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt 7:21).

 

[Katiethemule]

Thank you for such a prompt response, David! I appreciate your insight.

When you say that faith and grace are “ongoing”, is it implied that we are constantly losing our salvation (because of our daily sins) and regaining it (through the Eucharist, confession, penance)? Would this describe the process you are talking about?

Thanks,

K.

 

[cemiller]

Faith and works are not independent of each other. They are both required to obtain salvation. It’s like the warp and weft thread of a loom. When you have both you end up with a whole piece of cloth ready for market. If you are missing one or the other then you just have loose pieces of thread that won’t make it to market.
It is expressed in scripture (NAB version) in James 2:21 and 22: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected

There are, of course other scripure passages to explain it, but I’m sure you’ve seen most of them already if you’ve been searching through the Catholic Answers tracts on this site

 

[DavidFilmer]

When you say that faith and grace are “ongoing”, is it implied that we are constantly losing our salvation (because of our daily sins) and regaining it (through the Eucharist, confession, penance)?

No. I mean it’s “ongoing” in the same way that a marriage is ongoing. It is not something that happens once on our wedding day - it is a daily experience. If the marriage is healthy, both partners continually grow closer and the relationship continually becomes deeper and more committed (I know this from experience, having enjoyed more than 25 years with a wonderful wife).

And, yes, we can completely mess it up.

This analogy is not new. The Bible portrays Jesus as the bridegroom and the Church as the Bride of Christ.

 

[Lincoln7]

Hello Katiethemule!

I can very much sympathise with where your coming from on this one, it took me a while to get my head around it in any sort of helpful way!

St.Augustine gives a good look on the relationship between faith and works in his work “On Grace and Free Will”. You may already have looked at it, but for me it proved the most helpful in understanding it. Its available online at the Catholic Encyclopedia, chapter 16 if memory serves me best, you will be able to tell by the sub-headings!

Peace

Lincs

 

[Katiethemule]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I guess my next question is how many good works is good enough? Obviously if we believe and follow God, we should strive to do His good deeds as frequently as possible and not try to do the “bare minimum” that will put us in good standing with Him.

On judgment day, will God ever say “you didn’t do enough good deeds”? Or is it less of a quantitative approach as much as qualitative one (“you lived for me and demonstrated my love through your actions even though at times you failed”).

 

[Lincoln7]

Katiethemule,

The following may help you with the Catholic idea of Merit for these good works;
catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

Check out St. Augustine here;
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm - chapter 20.

I think getting the idea of merit first and how these good works come about will be really helpful, they helped me a lot.

Hope this helps in any way, im not brilliant at this!

Lincs

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I guess my next question is how many good works is good enough? Obviously if we believe and follow God, we should strive to do His good deeds as frequently as possible and not try to do the “bare minimum” that will put us in good standing with Him.

On judgment day, will God ever say “you didn’t do enough good deeds”? Or is it less of a quantitative approach as much as qualitative one (“you lived for me and demonstrated my love through your actions even though at times you failed”).

That doesn’t make sense - “how many works are good enough?”. The answer is: we can’t do enough works to “earn” salvation. We can’t. God by his grace, gives you the Holy Spirit (which gives you sanctifying grace), which produces faith and works. You can only accept the Holy Spirit, which is made possible by grace.

If you have sanctifying grace in your heart/soul when you die, you will be saved.

 

[Katiethemule]

So maybe I am making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I agree that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. Maybe the nature and quantity of our good deeds aren’t that relevant. What counts is that we do them in conjunction with our faith in the glory of God’s name, not our own. As someone else put it a few posts back, like two threads interwoven. And it is these two threads that are constantly at work (as opposed to the Protestant dogma that would say you only need the “thread of faith”), and because of God’s grace shown to us on the cross, that we are blessed with salvation. Is this correct?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

So maybe I am making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I agree that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. Maybe the nature and quantity of our good deeds aren’t that relevant. What counts is that we do them in conjunction with our faith in the glory of God’s name, not our own. As someone else put it a few posts back, like two threads interwoven. And it is these two threads that are constantly at work (as opposed to the Protestant dogma that would say you only need the “thread of faith”), and because of God’s grace shown to us on the cross, that we are blessed with salvation. Is this correct?

Pretty much.

One thing that I don’t get about “faith alone” is that how can you be saved without the Holy Spirit working within you? That’s what makes the Catholic view so great - it’s right!

 

[perdido1144]

So maybe I am making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I agree that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. Maybe the nature and quantity of our good deeds aren’t that relevant. What counts is that we do them in conjunction with our faith in the glory of God’s name, not our own. As someone else put it a few posts back, like two threads interwoven. And it is these two threads that are constantly at work (as opposed to the Protestant dogma that would say you only need the “thread of faith”), and because of God’s grace shown to us on the cross, that we are blessed with salvation. Is this correct?

Katie, I think your tree analogy makes more sense if you stand it on its head; Frank Sheed offered a similar analogy in his book Theology for Beginners. Grace is analogous to a “seed”, which we can freely accept or reject. Once accepted, the tree grows. Think of faith as being the roots of the tree, hope the trunk, and charity the branches. Faith - belief in and acceptance of God - supports hope - our desire for and belief in the attainability of union with God. And if we, with our faith and hope, recognize the existence and desirability of union with God, charity - love of God and his creation - springs forth naturally.

To continue the analogy, works are the leaves of the tree. They spring forth from the branches of charity as naturally as leaves spring forth from a health tree. How many “leaves” are enough? It’s not really a meaningful question when talking about a healthy tree, nor is it meaningful when the tree is the tree of the three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity; all of which start growing in our souls from that seed of God’s grace.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I guess my next question is how many good works is good enough? Obviously if we believe and follow God, we should strive to do His good deeds as frequently as possible and not try to do the “bare minimum” that will put us in good standing with Him.

There’s no scorecard. There’s no minimum number.

Catholic salvation theology actually has very little to do with good works. Catholics believe that if we are in a State of Grace when we die then we are saved. We either ARE or in a State of Grace or NOT - there is no partial state.

We are placed in a State of Grace by Baptism. We remove ourselves from a State of Grace by mortal sin.

If we are NOT in a State of Grace then good works do nothing for us. All the good works in the world (apart from going to Confession) cannot save us.

If we ARE in a State of Grace then good works do nothing to put us “more” in this state. We’re already there.

Failing to perform certain works may constitute a sin of omission, and could possibly be mortally sinful. For example, you may be aware of child abuse, but freely and willfully decide to do nothing - that could possibly constitute a mortal sin (only God knows for sure). However, of the various good works that I do, very few would possibly constitute mortal sin if I did not do them.

If we are in a State of Grace then continued good works contribute to building up our relationship with God. Habitual good works make us less likely to sin.

 

[Katiethemule]

Thanks everyone for your insight and book recommendations. I’ll check them out. I appreciate you all taking the time to reply,

Blessings,

K

 

[guanophore]

Thank you for such a prompt response, David! I appreciate your insight.

When you say that faith and grace are “ongoing”, is it implied that we are constantly losing our salvation (because of our daily sins) and regaining it (through the Eucharist, confession, penance)? Would this describe the process you are talking about?

Thanks,

K.

I think you are on the right track, Katie. Sacraments are a channel through which grace flows. It is our responsibility to get ourselves under the spout, so the grace will fill us.

The good works that God has prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them do, as you say, preserve us in grace.

However, since salvation is not something that happens at one point in time for all time, it is not “lost”. It is more accurate to say that we have not yet achieved salvation in this life. Some aspects of our salvation have already happened (we are justified by baptism), some aspects are still in process (we are working it out) and some are yet to come. Not all who enter into salvation persevere to be united with their heavenly inheritance. We would not say they “lost” salvation, because they can’t lose something they are not able to attain in this life.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I guess my next question is how many good works is good enough? Obviously if we believe and follow God, we should strive to do His good deeds as frequently as possible and not try to do the “bare minimum” that will put us in good standing with Him.

There is only one good work that is good enough:

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

You are right that it is expedient to be constantly in a state of grace. For, in Him we live, and move, and have our being. Each day, all day, is to be a reflection of His grace in our lives. Therefore, all of our works should be “good” works.

Another way to ask this would be “how many ungodly works are ok?” When you look at it this way, it is clear that the foundation of the question is flawed.

On judgment day, will God ever say "you didn't do enough good deeds"?  Or is it less of a quantitative approach as much as qualitative one ("you lived for me and demonstrated my love through your actions even though at times you failed").

 

[guanophore]

So maybe I am making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I agree that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. Maybe the nature and quantity of our good deeds aren’t that relevant. What counts is that we do them in conjunction with our faith in the glory of God’s name, not our own. As someone else put it a few posts back, like two threads interwoven. And it is these two threads that are constantly at work (as opposed to the Protestant dogma that would say you only need the “thread of faith”), and because of God’s grace shown to us on the cross, that we are blessed with salvation. Is this correct?

When the Apostle says that faith without works is dead, he is making reference to the quality of saving faith.Saving faith is faith that works. It produces the fruits that befit repentance. In the end, all that matters is faith, working through love.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.