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Bishop93
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Amen…You are absolutely correct.
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PassingThru
Guest
). Report to the U.S. Department of Education, Field Initiated Grants]
Moving molesting teachers from school district to school district is a common phenomenon. And in only 1 percent of the cases do superintendents notify the new school district.
According to Diana Jean Schemo, the term “passing the trash” is the preferred jargon among educators.[Diana Jean Schemo, “Silently Shifting Teachers in Sex Abuse Cases,” *New York Times, June 18, 2002, p. A19.]
You think that is what they are doing now? Hmmm. I am sure you can dig up a handful. But, at this point we should have a huge list posted of all the 10s if not 100s of priests that the Church has help send away to jail. I won’t hold my breath for that list to appear. If it did exist, the Church would hold it up at every news conference they hold. Please prove me wrong, but I don’t think you can. (Your post.)
According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused (not proven guilty…just accused) of child sexual abuse.[Alan Cooperman, “Hundreds of Priests Removed Since ‘60s; Survey Shows Scope Wider Than Disclosed,” *Washington Post, June 9, 2002, p. A1.]
Blame it on the gays. Wow. Way to fall into that stereotype. By the way, up until 18, it is still rape, and classified as pedophilia. One line turned rape of a minor into gay sex. Well played. (Your post.)
Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.” [Thomas Plante, “A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse,” A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse, by Dr. Thomas Plante”]www.psywww.com/psyrelig/plante.html.]
The American Psychiatric Association defines pedophilia as sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Therefore, as I said, the majority of the abuse was between gay priests and teenagers.
OK, I don’t want to get into a school versus Church argument. I agree, schools are deplorable. I said as much already. So what is your point? Schools are overrun with perverts, so it is OK that the Church did not have the will to do the right thing and hand its perverts over the the police? Are you just mad that the Church gets a bad rap from the press?
Oh, and you still have not shown when the school took a reported rape and covered it up and moved the teacher on. I think the school is overrun with perverts, sure. But I do not think they cover up reported crimes. Your quote about one in 350 admitted sex offenders being reported to police seems a bit out there. I think we are missing something from your quotes, but don’t get stuck on this idea. If a child tells a teacher/councilor they were sexually assaulted, it gets reported. I am sure you can find exceptions, but this is all not relevant regardless. I will concede, schools are, at best, just as bad as the Church during the decades of abuse. Likely worse.
When I asked for who the Church has aggressively pursued within her ranks, you give me a quote from the Washington Post about a poll? This answers absolutely nothing.
Fine, pedophilia refers to pre-pubescent. I should have said “child rapist” instead to be more accurate. Are you really drawing a distinction as if that somehow matters? So, a large percent were gay, or at least chose other males. What difference does it make?
So lets skip dragging other groups into the mud. I will admit they are all exposed to the same problem. The issue here is how, to my knowledge, the Church has done nothing to prosecute those responsible for allowing it to continue. Can you talk about what the Church has done? And by this, I mean men turned over to police, volunteering records, assisting voluntarily in a trial. Anything? The reason I hold them to account is because of the systematic nature of the church. Bishops knew. They consult with Cardinals (sorry if I have the order wrong). They make decisions internally, no consultations with the authorities, and document everything. This is very unique to the Church. So, what can you tell us about what they have done?
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Scoobyshme
Guest
I think the school is overrun with perverts, sure. But I do not think they cover up reported crimes. Your quote about one in 350 admitted sex offenders being reported to police seems a bit out there. I think we are missing something from your quotes, but don’t get stuck on this idea. If a child tells a teacher/councilor they were sexually assaulted, it gets reported. Not according to the studies which I cited. I am sure you can find exceptions, but this is all not relevant regardless. I will concede, schools are, at best, just as bad as the Church during the decades of abuse. Likely worse. Okay, now we get back to my point. If folks like you and the media are really that concerned with child abuse, why aren’t you and they railing all over the place, in public, about our school systems like you do against the Church?
When I asked for who the Church has aggressively pursued within her ranks, you give me a quote from the Washington Post about a poll? This answers absolutely nothing.
The poll puts things, again, in perspective. You and the media act as if its all priests involved, when, in fact, the poll shows it’s about 1.5%. The Church does aggressively investigate claims. It just doesn’t make it public. And the Church doesn’t send anyone to prison, the justice system of the government does. The Church does, however, defrock priests, and it has many.
Fine, pedophilia refers to pre-pubescent. I should have said “child rapist” instead to be more accurate. Are you really drawing a distinction as if that somehow matters? Actually, there is a distinction, like the difference between murdering a child and murdering an adult. Both are wrong, but murdering a child is worse because the child is more innocent. So, a large percent were gay, or at least chose other males. What difference does it make? Different disease. Everyone wants to support the “gay agenda” as if it’s normal. No one wants to support pedophilia (nor should they). When gays do this sort of thing, they want to shift the blame to pedophilia rather than homosexuality. Both are wrong.
So lets skip dragging other groups into the mud. I will admit they are all exposed to the same problem. The issue here is how, to my knowledge, the Church has done nothing to prosecute those responsible for allowing it to continue. Then you need to do more homework and less reading of the media accounts, which are skewed and bigoted. Can you talk about what the Church has done? And by this, I mean men turned over to police, volunteering records, assisting voluntarily in a trial. Anything? The reason I hold them to account is because of the systematic nature of the church. Bishops knew. They consult with Cardinals (sorry if I have the order wrong). They make decisions internally, no consultations with the authorities, and document everything. This is very unique to the Church. So, what can you tell us about what they have done? The Church has a special prosecutor’s office in the Vatican to handle cases of abuse. The Church doesn’t have a police arm in each diocese to arrest anyone or any such thing. If you’re really interested and can be objective, I would recommend you read the following articles that talk about the system in place: zenit.org/rssenglish-28634 and speroforum.com/a/29002/Vatican—The-rigor-of-the-Church-and-the-Pope-on-paedophilia?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+speroforum%2Fnroq+%28Spero+News%29
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mangy_dog
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Hello my friend,
Your’s is a valid question and concern. The media is partly responsible for not publishing both ends of the process.
Perhaps because the scandal is more sensational than the actions taken by the bishops and the pope.
The catholic church like other organizations cannot automatically assume the guilt of a person and so, has to go through the due process - internal authority as well as external authority. As a nation within a nation their actions are closely monitored and scrutinized by not only the media but the entire world.
I for one notice the “little known bits of news” as they trickle across the bottom of the screen on CNN. Bishops have been recalled to Vatican, stripped of their diocese and authority and have been turned over to civilian authorities for prosecution - as well as “divesting” priests and turning them over to civilian authorities…
But not before due process! Vatican cannot afford to “screw-up” an investigation and risk cutting corners for the sake of “expediency” in the excercise of law and punishment.
Pope Benedict XVI and his true, faithful Bishops have other not so faithful and disobedient bishops to contend with also. Just like any government with internal dynamics, the Vatican has it’s dissenting views and it’s hidden power agendas. Complicity, collusion and cover-ups are not limited to secular governments…
I’m sure that if due process were not a concern, the pope would’ve flexed an iron fist towards these pedophile priests and bishops along with schismatic dissenters.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I was a teenager in the 70s. We heard of priests being moved multiple times from parish to parish because they were ‘messing with the altar boys’. My own parish had to deal with such a priest. So, in the 70s, the Bishops already knew that the recidivism rate for molesters was very high, even after these men had been ‘treated’ at that place in New Mexico, or where ever it was.
At first, psychologists had told the Bishops that molesters could be ‘cured’. But the Bishops’ own experience proved that wrong. THEY had the facts, and they withheld them.
In trying to keep the Church from scandal, the Bishops (and the brother Priests who kept silent) caused the biggest scandal in the Church in a long time. The Bishops now have absolutely no moral ground to talk about marriage or gay rights or anything dealing with sexual ethics.
I am still a Catholic because I feel the Church is indeed the one true Church founded by Jesus. I have to be here. However, I am deeply disappointed at Bishops, Priests, and others worldwide who, through the entire 20th century, abused altar boys, orphans, and others entrusted to their care. They have made it entremely had to be a Catholic in the 21st Century.
At first, psychologists had told the Bishops that molesters could be ‘cured’. But the Bishops’ own experience proved that wrong. THEY had the facts, and they withheld them.
In trying to keep the Church from scandal, the Bishops (and the brother Priests who kept silent) caused the biggest scandal in the Church in a long time. The Bishops now have absolutely no moral ground to talk about marriage or gay rights or anything dealing with sexual ethics.
I am still a Catholic because I feel the Church is indeed the one true Church founded by Jesus. I have to be here. However, I am deeply disappointed at Bishops, Priests, and others worldwide who, through the entire 20th century, abused altar boys, orphans, and others entrusted to their care. They have made it entremely had to be a Catholic in the 21st Century.
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tweetymom
Guest
Amen to that post. You are so right.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
Paul,
Code:
Perspective. What about the 99% of good, faithful priests and bishops? What about the fact that of the 12 Apostles, one was Judas Iscariot, one was Peter (who denied Jesus three times, the rest, except for St. John, deserted Him in His hour of need like cowards. And these are men that Jesus personally picked! Do you expect us, 2000 years later, to do better tha Jesus?
The Church is not a museum of Saints, but a hospital for sinners. It is the Mystical Body of Christ, instituted by Christ, for the salvation of all sinners, clergy and non-clergy. People make mistakes. People sin. Hopefully, they repent before they die. If not, well, you know the answer to that.
Don't let the media paint a false picture of the Church. They are decidedly anti-Catholic and will slant everything they can to put the Church in as bad a light as they can, trying to destroy the faith of good Catholics.
For our part, we should pray for our priests and bishops, as well as the Pope. They need our prayers because Satan and his minions know their job gets a lot easier if he can get them. He knows if you get the shepherd, you get many of the sheep! So they are on the frontlines more than we are sometimes. Pray and offer sacrifice for them. And turn a blind eye and ear to those who want to destroy the Church. They won't, but they could destroy the faith of those who aren't solid in their faith. :)
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manualman
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PassingThru and others:
The frustration catholics often have with the media and the abuse issue comes down to this. Media accounts paint a picture that seems designed to paint this as a problem peculiar to and possibly CAUSED BY catholicism and its beliefs and practices. This rather ticks us off when the clear and overwhelming evidence is that child sexual abuse is a problem in our entire culture. To suggest that priest abuse is caused by a celibacy requirement or ‘sexually repressive’ catholic beliefs smacks of invincible ignorance at best or outright malicious slander at worst. I don’t think anybody here is saying that the bishops did no wrong. Heck, in some cases the bishops themselves WERE sexual abusers (Archbishop Weakland, for example). The protest being made is that the WHOLE picture should be viewed rather than attempting to use the issue to grind an axe.
The frustration catholics often have with the media and the abuse issue comes down to this. Media accounts paint a picture that seems designed to paint this as a problem peculiar to and possibly CAUSED BY catholicism and its beliefs and practices. This rather ticks us off when the clear and overwhelming evidence is that child sexual abuse is a problem in our entire culture. To suggest that priest abuse is caused by a celibacy requirement or ‘sexually repressive’ catholic beliefs smacks of invincible ignorance at best or outright malicious slander at worst. I don’t think anybody here is saying that the bishops did no wrong. Heck, in some cases the bishops themselves WERE sexual abusers (Archbishop Weakland, for example). The protest being made is that the WHOLE picture should be viewed rather than attempting to use the issue to grind an axe.
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PassingThru
Guest
It sounds like some people understand, from a Catholic perspective, and some have a defensive or dismissive posture. If I heard move voices like PaulinVA, I would feel much more comfortable. I think most of this comes down to perception. My perception, and many others as seen in the public, is that the Church did not take it upon herself to take responsibility for those cases that did occur. I agree with Paulin completely. I do not think it has anything to do with the legitimacy of the Church, nor the 95%+ of upstanding Priests/Bishops/Cardinals. I also do not think that celibacy is strongly tied to any of this. I just wish that this large majority would have stood up and taken strong, public steps to own up to the problem, and swiftly and publicly see to it that those responsible were charged. Secrecy, private “trials”, letters of apology, blaming gays, categorizing assaults, all of this just adds to public mis-trust. And when the punishment is being “defrocked”, that is hardly a punishment at all. And referring to the intentional actions of bishops moving predatory priests around as “mistakes” or “blunders” sure doesn’t help.
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silentstar
Guest
I think the media is reacting this way b/c it is newsworthy that priests abused children (and I count teenage males under 18 as children) and bishops covered it up. And they will focus on what is newsworthy. And I think one reason this is newsworthy is that many people including Catholics feel upset and betrayed at the thought that any priests harmed children.
Many of us were taught to look up to priests as God’s representative on Earth. The fact that so many priests abused their power, even though they were a small percentage of priests, is profoundly disillusioning for many people. If you cannot trust priests, who can you trust? It is also disillusioning that they were moved around and given ‘therapy’ that didn’t work, instead of being held accountable for their crimes. And I agree way back in the day, bishops might not have realized that treatment had a very high failure rate. But by the 60s or 70s they had documented track records of priests getting ‘therapy’ and being moved and continuing to offend.
To use an example: if a drug-addicted, belligerent person, who always seemed ‘weird,’ abused a child, people might be upset but they would probably not be surprised. They would say ‘he’s troubled’ or ‘I always knew there was something strange about him’ and encourage other children to stay away from him. But when you find out that a priest has done it, that is profoundly upsetting and shocking to many people who would have had no idea that priests can do this. And that makes it news.
edited to add: one factor I don’t see many people pointing out is that there are myths about who perpetrates rape and sexual abuse in this culture. Many of us were taught, and probably still are, about ‘stranger danger’ and watching out for strange men who look scary and will pull you into a dark alley, or some strange looking person who will molest you. MANY people are raised to believe that you can spot molesters and rapists b/c they look ‘funny’ and act weird.
The reality is that children are most likely to be abused by people they know. And it is very possible for many people who look perfectly normal to offend. That’s a hard reality for some people to accept. Believing that abuse can be perpetrated by anyone no matter how normal they look, is upsetting and frightening to many people. And that imo includes cases where priests abuse.
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tweetymom
Guest
It is an on going issue with churches and organizations. But the church is supposed to have higher standards they say so to whom much is given , much is required. No one has an axe to grind. There is no excuse for any of it and the cover up is one of the worse things. How do I know? Been there done that and it is sickening.
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kage_ar
Guest
The first thing is to learn the policy for your Diocese:
dioknox.org/pdfs/misconduct.policy.pdf
dioknox.org/child-protection/safe-environment/
Next, go to the USCCB and learn the national policies.
And lastly, I would suggest you read Fr Benedict Grosehel’s book on the topic.
amazon.com/Scandal-Hope-Benedict-J-Groeschel/dp/1931709696
dioknox.org/pdfs/misconduct.policy.pdf
dioknox.org/child-protection/safe-environment/
Next, go to the USCCB and learn the national policies.
And lastly, I would suggest you read Fr Benedict Grosehel’s book on the topic.
amazon.com/Scandal-Hope-Benedict-J-Groeschel/dp/1931709696
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manualman
Guest
This is an extremely good point right here. The fact that somebody is ‘nice’ does not say anything about their degree of sexual degeneracy. A coworker of mine recently passed away. Very nice old fellow, married for 40+ years, we had thrown him a retirement party 3 years ago. Was utterly shocked to learn that he was a convicted sex offender caught with gigabites of child porn on his computer at a former employer! You simply can’t tell looking at somebody and sometimes can’t tell even when you’ve know him for a some time. Learn the symptoms and watch for them!
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manualman
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It is an ongoing problem with sinful humanity you mean. And statistics prove that the Church DOES have higher standards. Her human members still have failures, but you are expecting flawlessness on this issue. It will never happen. Grace doesn’t control believers, it gives them the ability to overcome sin, not the guarantee. This is the pattern throughout history. On average, believers have an imperfect, but positive influence on society at large.
When you say it is an issue with “churches and organizations” you unintentionally reveal your mistake. It is a problem with HUMAN BEINGS. This whole thing is simply Exhibit 94845785 of why humanity needs a Savior.
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tweetymom
Guest
Brother since I have been there I can spot a molester a mile away.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
It’s not a question of the Church having “higher standards.” It has the highest. It is a question of particular folks within the Church following those standards. And why would we be surprised if they don’t? Jesus established certain standards, also, including the Ten Commandments. Does that mean that any of the laity or heirarchy are somehow “protected” from temptation or sin? No, hardly. The Church, however, has the means to help one overcome one’s temptations.
In my opinion, there will be some who were caught and convicted of these crimes who will sincerely repent and make to heaven. And, there will be some who self-righteously point fingers at them, as if they, themselves, had never commited a sin, who, through pride, will not repent before they die, and won’t make it to heaven.
I believe that God allows us to fall sometimes so that we may become humble. Without humility, we will never see heaven.
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Leela
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Tantum_ergo
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You see, you are making the error of assuming that the Catholic Church teaches that having Eternal Truth (which it does) naturally mean that all its members are constantly sinless (which they aren’t.)
When you get the idea wrong from the start, and you have it makes it difficult, because you won’t accept the truth but cling to your error.
News flash, the Church itself never said it WASN’T made of fallible beings. Please, don’t play strawmen.
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Rascalking
Guest
I take grave offense to this. Everyone should know that the church does teach that I am infallible.
Canon law 22-Rascalking is infallible on opinions art, morality, literature, and politics. All must obey.
Come on people! Where have you been all this time?!?!
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Scoobyshme
Guest
Leela, if having access to Divine truth was a guarantee against sin, Judas would’ve never betrayed Jesus. Peter would’ve never denied Him three times. The rest, except for St. John, wouldn’t have deserted Him like cowards in His hour of need.
The Church’s moral authority does not stem from its members, but from Christ, who gave the Church His deposit of Divine teachings to share with the world. Whether any individual (including heirarchy) follows those teachings is what we’re here on earth for. To be tested. Either we follow them, or we don’t, and there are eternal consequences to either. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. That’s why, when Paul was persecuting Christians and Jesus knocked him off his horse, Jesus didn’t ask him, “Why are you persecuting members of My Church?” Jesus, instead, asked Paul, “Why are you persecuting ME?”
The Church is not a museum of Saints, but a hospital for sinners.
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