Question about sex and dating

[natedagw824]

Hello,

I am a 25yr. old male who is very very confused about sex. I have never been on a date before in my life and I am still a virgin. I guess the big reason why I won’t date is because of the Church’s stance on making out.
I guess my view is this: It’s a sin to make out, right? Well how can you love someone without showing it? Im not talking about the sexual stuff. Im just talking about holding each other while passionately kissing. From what I understand, the stuff I just mentioned would be a sin.
Well, why is it a sin? This is the big reason why I havent gone on any dates, or why I have never been in love. I guess I’m afraid of upsetting God too much. However, this has created a BIG problem: Masturbation.(HOPE IM NOT TOO GRAPHIC HERE, I JUST NEED SOME ADVICE)
I don’t know if all of this has to do with how I was raised. I just dont know. Maybe I’m being too hard on myself. I just don’t know…
If you could please give me some advice I would really appreciate it. Books, or a link to a good website would be great.

Thanks for your help,

Nathan

 

[Deidre]

You might try reading Theology of the Body for Beginners by Chris West. It presents a very healthy and spiritual view of intimacy as envisioned by God through scripture and Church Teaching.

 

[Jay2]

Why does “going on a date” = “making out”???

Going on a date = :
Spending time with someone you find attractive (not JUST physically)
Finding out if the two of you are compatible
Sharing time together, or mixing with the others’ friends… and hopefully developing new friendships
If all of the above work out, then a deeper relationship/possible marriage may be an option.

BUT, if you don’t “date”, you’ll never find out or know. While dating you just might find out that that line of life isn’t for you, and a different vocation is calling.

Who knows… maybe your “date” out together may end with a heartfelt embrace and genuinely appreciative kiss… a real “Thank You for a nice time”…and take this gift as it is - a gesture of kindness and appreciation. You didn’t grope/grovel/make-out, just kissed someone you like (and left it at that!)…

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Agree with previous poster that “dating” does not automatically imply “making out”. Ideally you would be able to find a likeminded young lady. If you reject, out of hand, the idea of dating, because you assume that “all” women will expect you to make out and/or have sex, then you will never get to find that one gem who shares your same outlook. A church group for young adults can be a good place to find someone, although such groups can be hard to find, and not everyone you find there will share your committment to chastity.

As per masturbation, you may just find that, one day, you have reached a certain state of mind, or level of maturity, where you just don’t feel you need to do it anymore. Until then, just try your best, and know that God is always willing to forgive you. And don’t worry - the priest in the confessional has heard it before a million times from all the other guys in your situation. He won’t be shocked or scandalized, and may offer some advice to help you out. Oh, and be sure to avoid pornography in the meantime, if you don’t already. That is a snare that catches many a good-hearted but lonely young man.

 

[Flopfoot]

I wouldn’t have thought making out is a sin.

Has anyone got a clear and authoritative reference on the issue? If not I think we can assume that making out isn’t sinful in itself.

 

[DailyBread]

It’s a sin for couples who are not married because it places someone in close proximity to sexual intercourse and also because the it is usually done to seek to fulfill passionate sexual desires even if one were to only makeout. Hence you will find in pretty much examination of conscience book, prolonged kissing as a violation of chastity for unmarried couples. It is not a healthy way to help someone discern marriage or to prevent one from objectifying the other.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I wouldn’t have thought making out is a sin.

Has anyone got a clear and authoritative reference on the issue? If not I think we can assume that making out isn’t sinful in itself.

I think that you need to be sure to clarify what you mean by “making out” as this definition can be different for different people. Let’s assume that we are talking about those that are single for the sake of this post.

2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.

2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128

2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.

2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life.129 The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence.

2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.132 The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.

2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.

**Offenses against chastity **

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

From this we can see that there is a clear definition of what it means to be called to live a chaste life before marriage. Once we get into a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, lines need to be drawn and communicated. If you are “making out” by passionately kissing and this brings you to have the desire for more than just kissing it is becoming the near occasion of sin, of lust. You are wanting, desiring something that at this time in your life you are not called to.

The one thing that we must remember about any relationship before marriage, it is about so much more than just sex or physical attraction. Will the relationship survive without sex? This is a test for that. Because as Catholics we are called to use NFP in our sexual life and I can tell you from experience (if you are trying to avoid a pregnancy for legitimate reasons) there are going to be times that you cannot have sex. It is important to have more than a physical relationship with your spouse.

During your courtship, you have the opportunity to learn so much about your boy/girlfriend. You should treasure that time and not cloud it with a sexual relationship. Is it easy? Nope, Christ never said it would be easy only that it would be worth it!!

 

[Miserissima]

Has anyone got a clear and authoritative reference on the issue? If not I think we can assume that making out isn’t sinful in itself.

“Making out,” in and of itself, is not a sin…for married couples. For non-married couples, it is directly a “near occasion of sin.” These practices can be sinful in anf of themselves, *if *they are tempting.

I say “if” they are tempting because near occasions of sin are entirely subjective – varying from one person to another, and also by degrees. Fisheaters has a good note on the subjective nature of “near occasion of sin” Note: a “near occasion of sin” is a situation in which you are likely to sin. For example, going to the mall might be a “near occasion of sin” for a kleptomaniac who hasn’t learned to control his behavior; keeping company alone with a girl he is extremely attracted to in a sexual way might be a near occasion of sin for a man, etc.

The Catechism talks about “the battle for purity”. We, the baptized and the forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation struggle against concupiscence of the flesh (CCC 2520).

The MSN Group, Catholic Faith Refresher Course, also puts it better than I can:

H. THE NEAR OCCASIONS OF SIN

An occasion of sin is any person, place or thing that may lead you into sin. A near occasion of sin is one that easily leads you into sin. The occasion is different for all of us. For one it is drink; for another it is unchastity; for another it is money. It is important to know that to go to the person. place or thing that easily leads you into sin is a sin in itself.

For this specific question about “making out,” prolonged kissing is for arousal. Again, for everyone, there are different levels, different tolerances. But putting yourself in a “near occasion of sin” can easily get out of control. For example, my level of continence may be lower than yours. Kissing would be something more dangerous – easily leading to sin – for me than you. That’s why we identify what temptations are difficult for us personally, and we strive for chastity or temperence:

“The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.” (CCC 2341).

To avoid the near occasion of sin, we limit the behaviors that bring us even close to being ouside of God’s grace through building a strong moral foundation and exercising temperance:

“Temperance: The cardinal moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasure and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the mastery of the will over instinct, and keeps natural desires within proper limits” (CCC Glossary).

 

[marybee]

Why would kissing be a sin? I kiss my parents, my brothers and sister, my kids. A heavy make out session? Why not? holding hands, hugging kissing intimately. I don’t the catechism says anything about kissing on a date. I thought you just couldn’t have orgasms and stuff!?

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Why would kissing be a sin? I kiss my parents, my brothers and sister, my kids. A heavy make out session? Why not? holding hands, hugging kissing intimately. I don’t the catechism says anything about kissing on a date. I thought you just couldn’t have orgasms and stuff!?

No kissing is not a sin. To kiss your family (in the appropriate manner, let’s not get crazy here) is a sign of love an affection. That can be true in a dating relationship, but you must be aware of the limits when you get into “making out.” If this brings you to what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” meaning it tempts you to what to do “more” with the person, then it is becoming sinful. It is called “lust.” Please see my previous post about what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about lust.

Sexual contact is more than just “orgasms.” Touching the ahem certain areas would be just as much a sin as completing the act. To orally stimulate (by mouth or hand) someone of the opposite sex (or to masturbate yourself) would be a sin (outside the confides of marriage) even if there is no orgasm.

Please pick up a copy of Christopher West’s “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” or “Theology of the Body for Beginners” as they are both wonderful resources for this.

 

[marybee]

No kissing is not a sin. To kiss your family (in the appropriate manner, let’s not get crazy here) is a sign of love an affection. That can be true in a dating relationship, but you must be aware of the limits when you get into “making out.” If this brings you to what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” meaning it tempts you to what to do “more” with the person, then it is becoming sinful. It is called “lust.” Please see my previous post about what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about lust.

Sexual contact is more than just “orgasms.” Touching the ahem certain areas would be just as much a sin as completing the act. To orally stimulate (by mouth or hand) someone of the opposite sex (or to masturbate yourself) would be a sin (outside the confides of marriage) even if there is no orgasm.

Please pick up a copy of Christopher West’s “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” or “Theology of the Body for Beginners” as they are both wonderful resources for this.

I was just trying not to be graphic! I went to Catholic school for ahh i don’t know how many years! Who masturbates someone without ejaculating anyway Kind of defeats the purpose

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I was just trying not to be graphic! I went to Catholic school for ahh i don’t know how many years! Who masturbates someone without ejaculating anyway Kind of defeats the purpose

I know that you were. Unfortunately “going to Catholic school” does not teach you what you know about the faith, or what you need to know. Atleast that is my experience.

Believe it or not, I have read stories on this forums about those that masturbate and stop due to the guilt that it would cause to have the orgasm. I do not get it, but oh well, I am not meant to understand everything.

I was not trying to be attacking in my post so please do not take it that way, just trying to make a few points.

 

[marybee]

I know that you were. Unfortunately “going to Catholic school” does not teach you what you know about the faith, or what you need to know. Atleast that is my experience.

Believe it or not, I have read stories on this forums about those that masturbate and stop due to the guilt that it would cause to have the orgasm. I do not get it, but oh well, I am not meant to understand everything.

I was not trying to be attacking in my post so please do not take it that way, just trying to make a few points.

I was just trying to add some humor!

 

[Smber2c]

Believe it or not, I have read stories on this forums about those that masturbate and stop due to the guilt that it would cause to have the orgasm. I do not get it, but oh well, I am not meant to understand everything.

Having been addicted to this vice before and having talked it over with fellow sufferers, I can tell you that many good Catholics who are addicted to this sin feel a bit of guilt vs. a mountain of pleasure during the “ramp up”. But then once they complete the act the pleasure disapears and the guilt is magnified.

Yes, I myself and a few guys I’ve talked with have had times (individually, that last part is starting to sound like we were together…we weren’t) when we got started, then stopped knowing the pleasure was about to disapear and leave us with even more guilt.

As such, there was certainly already lusting…and I would say masterbation - though people may argue that there was not as the act wasn’t completed.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Yes, I myself and a few guys I’ve talked with have had times (individually, that last part is starting to sound like we were together…we weren’t) when we got started, then stopped knowing the pleasure was about to disapear and leave us with even more guilt.

:bigyikes: Thanks for clarifying that part about “individually” or I would have had to take a double or triple take at where the statement was going

I agree with what you have said and can see that the guilt would outweigh the pleasure (momentary) of the act. Good points

 

[Smber2c]

I am a 25yr. old male who is very very confused about sex. I have never been on a date before in my life and I am still a virgin. I guess the big reason why I won’t date is because of the Church’s stance on making out.

Hey Nathan. I know you are asking primarily about making out, but I think getting a non-secularized view of dating is probably good too.

I’m 23 and have gone on a single date with maybe half a dozen girls. I’ve dated 4: 1 in High school (about 2 months), 2 in college (8 and 12 months each), and one now (for about a year).

In all that I’ve only kissed the last girl. I don’t really mean to suggest that people dating shouldn’t kiss, but it isn’t a necessity and can often causes problems.

I’ve heard a girl at work say to another, “what you aren’t sleeping with our man yet, if he isn’t putting out in three weeks I’m droping him like a hot potatoe.”

Feeling like we have to get a kiss on the first date. Feeling the need to make out on date 2 or like this woman ‘score’ by week three. That’s the total wrong way to enter a relationship.

If the person you are dating is a good Catholic or a person with strong character and goal in line with yours (and they should be), they you can even tell them this. My current girlfriend and I talk about struggles and physical temptation alot.

Once we started kissing, we reaized we had to be careful - we never got naked or anything, but physicality escelates quickly. We’ve made agreements to one another and consider it serving one another to ‘keep to the code’. Stuff like, “no kissing and laying down.” Or “don’t play with me ear or belly, it’s to sensual and gets my mind in bad places”.

• Once we ID these trouble spots we honor one another by not doing them.

Just cause movies show relationships one way, doesn’t mean Hollywood has any idea what works: just look at their divorce rate.

 

[adamlsp]

I have been talking about this issue with my friends lately and have a few comments and questions.

I think there are four non-sexual but physically intimate actions which are usually non-sinful and good for those who are close romantically to make use of when appropriate. These are: holding hands, hugging, kissing (closed-mouth kissing, not overly passionate, deep, or French kissing), and cuddling (nuzzling; caressing hair, face, or arms, massaging, etc.). I realize that last one sounds a little racy but I imagine those with moderate control over their passions should be able to engage in such activity without entering into a near occasion of sin. These four activities listed above are also used among friends and family members to a certain extent hence their non-sexual but intimate nature.

Then there is the baseball euphemism. 1st base is deep, passionate, open-mouthed and French kissing. 2nd base is feeling, caressing, or groping of the body underneath the clothing especially the breasts. 3rd base is manual or oral stimulation of the genitals. And home is, of course, phalo-vaginal sex. I realize that some other people may have slightly different understandings of the baseball euphemism but this is my general understanding of the system.

From my judgement it would seem that the actions I mentioned in the second paragraph (holding hands, hugging, kissing, cuddling) are all normally acceptable extra-marital acts unless someone is brought to near occasion of sin through any of them. But as previously discussed that is completely subjective. The debatable bit comes into play in the baseball euphemism. 3rd and home base are obviously reserved for the marital act alone. 1st and 2nd however seem to be not inherently sinful in and of themselves for those unmarried couples in committed relationships. 1st base being a more intense form of kissing and 2nd base being a more intense form of cuddling. 1st and 2nd however also appear to usually be near occasion of sin for most people but not all.

My question then is if it were not a near occasion of sin for a particular couple to reach 1st and even 2nd base is it still morally wrong for them to be at either of those bases? And also are there any other objections to reaching 1st or 2nd base?

Thanks. I hope my post isn’t too confusing.

Adam

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Adam, if you’re not married, stay off second base. I have said in another post that my understanding and what I have taught my children is that any activity that requires you to unfasten, move, remove, slip off, or slip your hands under any clothing that is normally covered by a swimsuit should be avoided. Whether it arouses you or not, second base is off limits.

If you’d be really embarrassed if your parish priest walked in on you, don’t do it. You’ll have to tell him anyway.

 

[nd2009]

No kissing is not a sin. To kiss your family (in the appropriate manner, let’s not get crazy here) is a sign of love an affection. That can be true in a dating relationship, but you must be aware of the limits when you get into “making out.” If this brings you to what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” meaning it tempts you to what to do “more” with the person, then it is becoming sinful. It is called “lust.” Please see my previous post about what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about lust.

Sexual contact is more than just “orgasms.” Touching the ahem certain areas would be just as much a sin as completing the act. To orally stimulate (by mouth or hand) someone of the opposite sex (or to masturbate yourself) would be a sin (outside the confides of marriage) even if there is no orgasm.

Please pick up a copy of Christopher West’s “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” or “Theology of the Body for Beginners” as they are both wonderful resources for this.

Hello. I first wanted to thank you for your helpful comments. I’ve been struggling a lot recently with many of the issues that you’ve discussed. My question is this: is lust, in and of itself, truly a sin?

My understanding is that feelings of desire such as lust are considered to be concupiscence (disordered emotions, especially of lust). I thought the church teaching was that involuntary desire is not a sin. I understand if we willingly desire someone or succumb to temptations it is a sin, but I don’t understand why desire itself is a sin.

Feelings of desire can’t be avoided altogether in my opinion. We can avoid things that would disorder our emotions such as pornography, masturbation, or even the allowance of sexual thoughts to continue in our mind; but it is impossible, in my experience, to eliminate desire entirely. No matter what I do I will have several sexual thoughts arise involuntarily each day. I immediately push these thoughts away, but I don’t think that I can control them from arising on their own. If it is impossible to eliminate desire altogether, how can it be a sin? Your thoughts?

 

[mapleoak]

I have been talking about this issue with my friends lately and have a few comments and questions.

I think there are four non-sexual but physically intimate actions which are usually non-sinful and good for those who are close romantically to make use of when appropriate. These are: holding hands, hugging, kissing (closed-mouth kissing, not overly passionate, deep, or French kissing), and cuddling (nuzzling; caressing hair, face, or arms, massaging, etc.). I realize that last one sounds a little racy but I imagine those with moderate control over their passions should be able to engage in such activity without entering into a near occasion of sin. These four activities listed above are also used among friends and family members to a certain extent hence their non-sexual but intimate nature.

Then there is the baseball euphemism. 1st base is deep, passionate, open-mouthed and French kissing. 2nd base is feeling, caressing, or groping of the body underneath the clothing especially the breasts. 3rd base is manual or oral stimulation of the genitals. And home is, of course, phalo-vaginal sex. I realize that some other people may have slightly different understandings of the baseball euphemism but this is my general understanding of the system.

From my judgement it would seem that the actions I mentioned in the second paragraph (holding hands, hugging, kissing, cuddling) are all normally acceptable extra-marital acts unless someone is brought to near occasion of sin through any of them. But as previously discussed that is completely subjective. The debatable bit comes into play in the baseball euphemism. 3rd and home base are obviously reserved for the marital act alone. 1st and 2nd however seem to be not inherently sinful in and of themselves for those unmarried couples in committed relationships. 1st base being a more intense form of kissing and 2nd base being a more intense form of cuddling. 1st and 2nd however also appear to usually be near occasion of sin for most people but not all.

My question then is if it were not a near occasion of sin for a particular couple to reach 1st and even 2nd base is it still morally wrong for them to be at either of those bases? And also are there any other objections to reaching 1st or 2nd base?

Thanks. I hope my post isn’t too confusing.

Adam

It should be mentioned that any action or willful intent or desire to arouse or procure venerial pleasure in oneself or another satisfies the mortal condition of serious matter. The same is true of any indirect action which causes such arousal and such action is pursued in spite of, and/or if the arousal is approved of. Extreme caution should be exersized if one is to put themself or their partner into the realm of near occasion as defined by all of the above mentioned ‘bases’.