Question about sin

[Lookup]

I have a question that has kind of been bugging me. It relates to the ability of people to commit mortal sin.

I just wonder how many people regularly fill the 3 conditions which are needed for a sin to be mortal. The objective nature of something being a grave matter cannot be argued with, however, as for the other two conditions (full knowledge of the sin and gravity of it, and full consent of the will), I wonder how often people really meet the other two conditions.

Say someone (a knowledgable and believing Catholic) was about to commit a grave sin. If someone were to say to them right before they committed that sin “By doing this one action, you will separate yourself from God for eternity.” I have a hard time believing that people would carry on with that action.

My point is that in the moment of sin peoples minds are clouded, and not thinking correctly. Does this not mean that there is not full consent of will there? Would you not have to be able to say to yourself, at that moment, I know this action will separate me from God but I’m going to do it anyway?

Here is a quick example:
Is missing mass a grave matter? Yes
Does this person know and believe it is a grave matter? Yes
Does this person honestly believe that by missing mass this one Sunday, they will be eternally separated from God forever? My guess would be probably not.

If the person thought about that 3rd question and still did it, of course they would be mortally sinful. But how many people (good practicing Catholics) would honestly not go to mass if they truly thought it would condemn them to hell?

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut, and God Bless!

 

[fhansen]

That was a great way to pose the question. I look at the Church’s teachings on sin as being based on principles-and sound ones. But they can only serve as guidelines for us since God alone knows the heart-including all the variables,fine details, and circumstances involved in a persons reasons for sin-and scripture tells us that God judges by the heart. But from our perspective it’s best to stick to the guidelines since we don’t know the heart-and they give us a practical way to approach sin and work on overcoming it.

 

[Boulder257]

Interesting scenario. The times when I have knowingly committed a mortal sin I rationalized the behavior in some way. I found some reason why it was okay that I committed that sin. I fully recognized that it was a sin, but argued that it wasn’t mortal for some reason.I have often wondered if this rationalization limited or decreased my moral culpability. However, I can say that every time I have rationalized a sin I have later realized such and confessed the sin vowing not to do it again. So, by virtue of that fact I realized, at least later on, that it was a rationalization and that I had committed mortal sin. I think to do it again would mean I am guilty of all three components.

I think that the important thing is that we grow in these experiences.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I have a question that has kind of been bugging me. It relates to the ability of people to commit mortal sin.

I just wonder how many people regularly fill the 3 conditions which are needed for a sin to be mortal. The objective nature of something being a grave matter cannot be argued with, however, as for the other two conditions (full knowledge of the sin and gravity of it, and full consent of the will), I wonder how often people really meet the other two conditions.

Say someone (a knowledgable and believing Catholic) was about to commit a grave sin. If someone were to say to them right before they committed that sin “By doing this one action, you will separate yourself from God for eternity.” I have a hard time believing that people would carry on with that action.

I don’t. Lucifer and the fallen angels are persons, and they did exactly that.

My point is that in the moment of sin peoples minds are clouded, and not thinking correctly.

How, exactly, do you know that? Are you a mind reader?

Does this not mean that there is not full consent of will there? Would you not have to be able to say to yourself, at that moment, I know this action will separate me from God but I’m going to do it anyway?

Here is a quick example:
Is missing mass a grave matter? Yes
Does this person know and believe it is a grave matter? Yes
Does this person honestly believe that by missing mass this one Sunday, they will be eternally separated from God forever? My guess would be probably not.

Sorry, but this is contradictory. First you say the person knows and believes it is grave matter. Grave matter, by definition is, well, grave. If they know that, then they know that such an action, unless repented, will eternally separate them from God forever.

If the person thought about that 3rd question and still did it, of course they would be mortally sinful. But how many people (good practicing Catholics) would honestly not go to mass if they truly thought it would condemn them to hell?

A lot, I’m afraid. I know a priest who was having a sexual affair. Surely this man was a “good practicing Catholic” up until then. I don’t see how he could plead ignorance.

You seem to be saying that people know such actions are grave matter while at the same time not realizing they are grave matter. You can’t both know it and not realize it.

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut, and God Bless!

You’re welcome, and God bless you too!

 

[Lookup]

Obviously I’m not claiming to be a mind reader. I’m saying just as another poster stated before, that in a moment before sin people tend to rationalize their behavior, or they aren’t thinking clearly, or have been taught that such action is grave but may not honestly deep down believe it. I’m not saying people never commit mortal sins… I’m just wondering if it happens less often than we think.

I can think of a time when I have done something gravely sinful. If somehow, at that moment, I was able to be transported and see myself in hell or being ripped from the presence of God, and then be popped right back to that instant before doing something sinful, I would immediately change my mind in that instant. My point is that our rationality is clouded when we sin so that we aren’t able to see the full extent of what we are doing wrong.

Also you can’t compare the choices of lucifer and other fallen angels to the choices of humans. They are not people and are an entirely different species than humans. The jump that occurs when an angel chooses not to follow God is much different than a human committing sin because angels, by their very nature, are not fallen creatures, and are entirely tuned in to the will of God. The scenarios and mindsets are too different to compare.

 

[Incomplete]

Say someone (a knowledgable and believing Catholic) was about to commit a grave sin. If someone were to say to them right before they committed that sin “By doing this one action, you will separate yourself from God for eternity.” I have a hard time believing that people would carry on with that action.

Even in this case, the person might not believe that the sin would separate them from God.

I have committed grave sin, but that was in the days when there was a lot that I disagreed with in Church teachings, and each time it was one of the things I disagreed with. (Yes, I’ve finally realized that 2000 years of theology trumps my puny mind, but I didn’t think through it back then.)

What I’m saying is I didn’t believe what I was doing was grave matter. In fact, at least one of the “mortal” sins I committed I didn’t even think of as sin. (And yes, I’ve been to confession about all of it.)

So was it mortal? Had someone told me at the time that it was, I would’ve told them it was nonsense. I still prayed and worshipped, and in many ways felt I had a good relationship with God.

My understanding is that moral sin is a deliberate and willful rejection of God. In no way was I doing this. That’s what those three conditions amount to. Back then, there are those who might have questioned why I was receiving communion when I was so obviously in a state of mortal sin. Yet in no way was I deliberately rejecting God.

In hindsight, I do, in fact, see why what I did was so wrong. I regret those sins enormously, even years (and decades) later. But God is merciful, and I was ignorant.
So I share your thinking in this. There is evil in the world, and there are evil people. There are those who do deliberately reject God. But I would agree that mortal sin isn’t quite so easy as many people think.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Obviously I’m not claiming to be a mind reader. I’m saying just as another poster stated before, that in a moment before sin people tend to rationalize their behavior, or they aren’t thinking clearly, or have been taught that such action is grave but may not honestly deep down believe it. I’m not saying people never commit mortal sins… I’m just wondering if it happens less often than we think.

I can think of a time when I have done something gravely sinful. If somehow, at that moment, I was able to be transported and see myself in hell or being ripped from the presence of God, and then be popped right back to that instant before doing something sinful, I would immediately change my mind in that instant. My point is that our rationality is clouded when we sin so that we aren’t able to see the full extent of what we are doing wrong.

Also you can’t compare the choices of lucifer and other fallen angels to the choices of humans. They are not people and are an entirely different species than humans. The jump that occurs when an angel chooses not to follow God is much different than a human committing sin because angels, by their very nature, are not fallen creatures, and are entirely tuned in to the will of God. The scenarios and mindsets are too different to compare.

My point is that sentient persons, whether angels or humans, can sin mortally. (At least angels could at one time sin. Those now in heaven don’t.)

None of us sees the total repercussions of our sins when we commit them. That, however, is no excuse whatsoever. You don’t see all the punishment you will receive in Purgatory from a venial sin either, do you? Can we then plead ignorance and go straight to heaven? I think not.

You sound like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You already stated in your OP, “Does this person know and believe it is a grave matter? Yes” Well, if they know, then they know. Yet, you keep trying to imply they don’t know. They either know or they don’t. If they do know it’s grave and give full consent, the sin is mortal. Period.

The catechism lists only three conditions for a sin to be mortal: grave matter, knowledge that it is grave matter, and full consent. Nowhere does the catechism say that realizing the punishment for a sin is a condition for making an action sinful. Nowhere does the catechism say that ignorance about punishment makes an action not a sin.

 

[Lookup]

I would be careful with assuming that I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too. I am simply asking questions about something I’ve been wondering about.

As I was trying to get across before, I’m trying to point out that there is a difference between being taught something is a grave matter and actually believing it to be one. As I stated with the going to mass scenario, the person knows it’s a grave matter meaning they have been taught it is grave, and that person may even believe it too, but when it comes down to actually comitting the sin do they actually 100% believe that that action will comdemn them? Meaning can they think to themselves in that moment by doing this I will go to hell, If there is any rationalizing, unsureness etc… Culpability would be somewhat lessened.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I would be careful with assuming that I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too. I am simply asking questions about something I’ve been wondering about.

As I was trying to get across before, I’m trying to point out that there is a difference between being taught something is a grave matter and actually believing it to be one. As I stated with the going to mass scenario, the person knows it’s a grave matter meaning they have been taught it is grave, and that person may even believe it too, but when it comes down to actually comitting the sin do they actually 100% believe that that action will comdemn them? Meaning can they think to themselves in that moment by doing this I will go to hell, If there is any rationalizing, unsureness etc… Culpability would be somewhat lessened.

What I meant is that, within the argument, you are trying to have it both ways.

In the OP, you stated that the matter is grave and the person both knows and believes it is grave. But then you turn around and say “do they actually 100% believe that that action will condemn them?” If they know and believe it’s a grave sin (as you stated), the answer can’t be anything but yes, since the very definition of a grave sin is that it will condemn a person to hell if all three conditions for it to be mortal are present.

Look, a person either knows something or he doesn’t. He either believes something or he doesn’t. If the matter is grave, he both knows and believes that, and he gives full consent, the sin is mortal. That is the definition of a mortal sin.

In your OP, you stated that the matter was grave and the person both knew and believed it was grave. If he chooses to do it anyway, his action fits the definition of a mortal sin. If the matter were not grave, the sin would not be mortal. If the person did not know the sin was grave, the sin would not be mortal. If the person did not consent totally of his own free will, the sin would not be mortal. But how can you know the sin is grave and yet not know it is grave?

 

[Bookcat]

Yes mortal sin is a radical possibility…and yes people do meet the three requirements (though of course there are those who do not)

A person does not have to think or know of all the consequences of the mortal sin at that moment…

God of course is the final judge.

 

[Incomplete]

I would be careful with assuming that I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too. I am simply asking questions about something I’ve been wondering about.

As I was trying to get across before, I’m trying to point out that there is a difference between being taught something is a grave matter and actually believing it to be one. As I stated with the going to mass scenario, the person knows it’s a grave matter meaning they have been taught it is grave, and that person may even believe it too, but when it comes down to actually comitting the sin do they actually 100% believe that that action will comdemn them? Meaning can they think to themselves in that moment by doing this I will go to hell, If there is any rationalizing, unsureness etc… Culpability would be somewhat lessened.

You make a mixed point here. You are right that it there is a difference between being taught something and actually knowing it it to be true. But when you go on to say “and the person may believe it, too”, then you are saying they know it to be a grave matter. Once you know and consent, you are saying to God, “Not Your will, but mine be done.”

Kay Cee said it clearly.

 

[Bookcat]

Nice summary from the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html