Question about Sola Scriptura

[Old_Scholar]

No, I think it is a strawman. The entire deposit of faith was given to the Apostles. They recorded some of it in the NT. They made no effort to distinguish between the two strands, which both come from the same Source. The Deposit of faith comes from Christ, and He is also not bound to the pages of the Holy Writings, though He uses them to express Himself to us.

The teaching of Jesus was handed to the Apostles, and they chose and ordained faithful men, who were able to teach others also. It is a sacred and divine trust, which has been preserved by the power of the HS. We can verify what belongs to Sacred Tradition by comparing things to the content of that divine deposit of faith. This is how the canon of the NT was formed. That “tradition that is not in the bible” that we presently call the Table of Contents!

" O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you." 1 Tim 6:20

2 Tim 1:5-6
6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

I guess you must reject Apostolic Succession, so as to freely persist in your disobedience to the one who sits on the chair of St. Peter.

What did Christ say about the “doctrines of man?”

 

[Old_Scholar]

Go back (using those little blue arrows next to the poster). Re-read the passages. They are talking about the divine deposit of faith, only part of which is found in scripture.

Are you saying that Irenæus did not use Scripture to refute heretics?

 

[Old_Scholar]

:bigyikes:

Do you also believe in that innovation the fundamentalists call “soul sleep” where those who have died in Christ are not really with the Lord?

Did Elijah and Moses come out of the “grave” to converse with Jesus?

How is Enoch walking with God, if he is in his grave?

**

The soul is dead. It says so in Scripture. God will raise up the dead with new bodies and souls.

Enoch is not said to be "walking " with God. It was said that he “walked” with God. He does not now.

Elijah and Enoch did not come out of their graves. They are still there and will be resurrected when we are. Scripture tells us that no matter what your tradition of man says.**

 

[Old_Scholar]

OS, I am sorry, but you allege that the bible, all of which the Catholic church preserved at a price in blood for you, is complete and all that’s necessary for your salvation.

It is you, my brother, and you alone, who bear the full, complete, 100% burden before God and His people, to prove that what you allege has any foundation whatsoever. You can copy and paste the entire NT in response, but it becomes nothing more than nonsensical babbling, since you have no authority, zero, zip, nada, to interpret scripture. Oh, you have as much authority as I do, which is none.

I cannot and will not risk my salvation to tissue paper theology which does not stand up to any test, other than that of rebellion against God’s church.

You see, your first paragraph is where you are wrong. My Bible survived inspite of the Catholic Church. Not because of it. They thought they had burned them all but they didn’t. The Catholic church never had my Bible.

 

[NotWorthy]

What did Christ say about the “doctrines of man?”

First let’s clarify “doctrines of man”.

Not all Traditions and Doctrines are “Doctrines of Man” - only those that cause us to stumble and prevent us from being drawn to God.

Christ condemned traditions and doctrines of men. Luckily, our Holy Mother Church doesn’t teach doctrines of men, thank the Lord!

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you saying that Irenæus did not use Scripture to refute heretics?

No, he is simply saying that Scripture is part of refuting heretics.

For instance, Arius used valid Scripture quotes to teach Arianism. The **Church **used Scripture, and the Divine Deposit of Faith to refute Arius.

You see, it’s a three legged stool that we sit on and the Holy Spirit is the glue that holds the stool together!

 

[Old_Scholar]

I have, several times. But I will again if you promise to answer mine afterwards.

The Church did not stray. The false, extra-biblical, man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura did not even exist until the 16th century. When the Early Church writers speak of the Word of God they are speaking not only of the written word, but as Paul advised " brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Th 2:15)

**If you don’t call it straying, what do you call making a doctrine hundreds of years after the Scriptures were written and, incidentally, if the Apostles did hand down oral traditions, why did it take the church so long to find them? And why did one pope make a doctrine or dogma and then another come along and say he was wrong and change it? What tradition teaches that?

And that’s where you are wrong about Scripture. Sola Scriptura was always the standard and still is. It was the standard for the first two centuries of the Catholic Church and remains so for many churches today. We have not strayed from it. God warned against the commandments of God and all our teachings are directly from Scripture, not some man made tradition.**

You are misunderstanding their writings. They are speaking of both the written and oral Word of God. But if you’d like to discuss individual writings, go ahead and pick one and post it here and we’ll discuss it after you’ve answered my questions.

I have posted numerous writings from your early church fathers and you have not responded to any of them trying to say they were wrong. Why? If now you say they were wrong. Go back and find one and then show me where it is wrong.

Now you must answer my questions with a simple yes or no:

1. Could the Holy Spirit, through the universal Church (which is the Body of Christ), have enabled believers – particularly the Bishops (the successors of the Apostles), in the first few hundred years of the Church, to faithfully and accurately pass along the traditions Paul taught by “word of mouth”? Yes, or no?
2. Are you infallible in your interpretations of Scripture? Was Martin Luther infallible in his? Or John Calvin? Yes, or no?
3. Is the canon of the Bible infallible? In other words, does the Bible contain exactly the number of books, and the correct books, that it should contain? Yes, or no?
4. If you answered, “Yes,” to #3, then by what authority do you believe this to be so? The Bible, or oral tradition?
5. If I were to deny that the Letter of James was inspired Scripture, by what authority would you declare me to be wrong? Does the Bible say James is “God-breathed?” Yes, or no?
6. If Bible-only Christians can get it wrong when it comes to their interpretation of the Bible in regard to traditions, as you stated can be the case, then can they get it wrong when it comes to their interpretations regarding doctrines? Yes, or no?

May the Grace and Peace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you foreve.

Your servant in Christ

**1. No! Not if it would change anything that is in Scripture.

1. No!
2. Yes! Provided it does not contain the Apocrypha.
3. The Bible
4. James was the brother of the Lord. He was called a pillar of the church at Jerusalem. He was the leader, or Bishop, of the church and obviously had more authority over the church than Peter, since it was he who made the final decision in the church’s first council. It is not necessary for the Bible to say James was “God-breathed” upon. God already told us:

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.**

James has always been accepted by all Christians as to an authentic book of the Bible and your church declared it to be canon. In addition, in your traditions, in a letter to Mary, one of your early church fathers said he could not wait to see James because he understood he looked exactly like Jesus and came from the same womb. I don’t think he needs any further authority.

1. No! Because our doctrines are quite clearly spelled out in Scripture. We don’t have to rely on what someone has said was said about it. We have it in writing.

And I hope God’s grace will continue for you as well…

 

[Michael_G]

The soul is dead. It says so in Scripture. God will raise up the dead with new bodies and souls.

Enoch is not said to be "walking " with God. It was said that he “walked” with God. He does not now.

Elijah and Enoch did not come out of their graves. They are still there and will be resurrected when we are. Scripture tells us that no matter what your tradition of man says.

1st what Scripture verse states that the soul is dead??? Where does it say we get new souls at the resurection???

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.

How do you deal with the above verse, which says that Enoch did not die, but was taken straight up to be with our Lord…

I have noticed that you did not reply to any of my replys with the early church fathers on your objections to teachings of the church, you did not reply to all of the oral traditions of the OT in the NT. especially to the fact that apart from sacred oral tradition you would not even know who wrote any of the gospels, since the writers are not identified in the gospels. Apart from the church you have not any legitamate Gospels when the authors are not known…

 

[Static]

What did Christ say about the “doctrines of man?”

 Scripture states that the time shall come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires, will heap to themselves teachers, having itchy ears and will turn away their hearing from the truth and will be diverted to fables.

This is what you have done with the ECF’s as well as the scriptures. You have a much better chance at answering your own question since this is a practice that you hold fast to.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Static]

Are you saying that Irenæus did not use Scripture to refute heretics?

St. Irenaeus , other Saints, and yet other saints have used scripture over and over again to refute heretics but, you keep on dismissing those scriptures, why ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

SOLA SCRIPTURA IS FALSE. PLEASE READ THIS FOR 21 REASONS WHY

 

[Static]

**

The soul is dead. It says so in Scripture. God will raise up the dead with new bodies and souls.

Enoch is not said to be "walking " with God. It was said that he “walked” with God. He does not now.

Elijah and Enoch did not come out of their graves. They are still there and will be resurrected when we are. Scripture tells us that no matter what your tradition of man says.**

Chapter and verse please. I definitely need to be educated on the soul being mortal.

Where are these graves ? I believe you have to say this because it makes it easier for you to debunk the assumption, does it not ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Static]

You see, your first paragraph is where you are wrong. My Bible survived inspite of the Catholic Church. Not because of it. They thought they had burned them all but they didn’t. The Catholic church never had my Bible.

Both catholics & protestants burned bibles that were in error, misprints, words left out, whatever. What is your translation , if you don’t mind me asking ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Static]

**If you don’t call it straying, what do you call making a doctrine hundreds of years after the Scriptures were written and, incidentally, if the Apostles did hand down oral traditions, why did it take the church so long to find them? And why did one pope make a doctrine or dogma and then another come along and say he was wrong and change it? What tradition teaches that?

And that’s where you are wrong about Scripture. Sola Scriptura was always the standard and still is. It was the standard for the first two centuries of the Catholic Church and remains so for many churches today. We have not strayed from it. God warned against the commandments of God and all our teachings are directly from Scripture, not some man made tradition.**

…
Need an example of what you are talking about. Why do you answer questions with questions ?
…

I have posted numerous writings from your early church fathers and you have not responded to any of them trying to say they were wrong. Why? If now you say they were wrong. Go back and find one and then show me where it is wrong.

…
The ones that I am familiar with I have brought to your attention for you just to say that that was not your translation of the ECF’s that you quoted. I am still waiting for a reply, sorry.
…

**
James was the brother of the Lord. He was called a pillar of the church at Jerusalem. He was the leader, or Bishop, of the church and obviously had more authority over the church than Peter, since it was he who made the final decision in the church’s first council.

**

…
I think we should go back & read Acts 15 again, should we
not ? Vs. 7 - James got up… spoke… then all fell silent from his
( James ) speech ? You have to dismiss the first fifteen chapters of Acts to draw this type of interpretation as you have done.
…

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

 

[Old_Scholar]

1st what Scripture verse states that the soul is dead? Where does it say we get new souls at the resurection?

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.

How do you deal with the above verse, which says that Enoch did not die, but was taken straight up to be with our Lord…

I have noticed that you did not reply to any of my replys with the early church fathers on your objections to teachings of the church, you did not reply to all of the oral traditions of the OT in the NT. especially to the fact that apart from sacred oral tradition you would not even know who wrote any of the gospels, since the writers are not identified in the gospels. Apart from the church you have not any legitamate Gospels when the authors are not known…

First we have to know what a soul is:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. man doesn’t “have” a soul, man “is” a soul.

Then we learn that the soul will die:

Ezekiel 18:4 *Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. *

Do we expect to die?

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Further proof that we die:

James 5:20 * Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.*

And what happens when we die?

Eccl 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

What happens at the resurrection:

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29)And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
At that time, according to Scripture, we will be given a new soul and it will be immortal, never again to die.

As for Enoch, we are told that all of his days were 365 years.(Gen 5:23)

Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22) And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Now we are told that ALL of his years were 365, and he was not. In Biblical terms, that means he died. If he were still living, we would not have been told in this manner. Now we don’t know where God took him because we are not told but we know it was not heaven because Christ tells us in John that no one has gone to heaven except Him.

Then Paul says: Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Translated comes from the Greek word “metatilthemi” and it means transfer, transport, exchange or change sides. Nowhere in the Bible where this word is used does it mean to *make immortal *and that is what would have happened if God had taken him to heaven.

Acts 7:16 talks about Jacob dying and his body being translated or carried over to Sychem where “he was buried.” That is why Moses said God removed or translated, Enoch so that *“he was not found.” * God took him and buried him. We read in Deuteronomy how God took Moses and buried him and no one knows where until this day.

Paul also tells us in Hebrews 11, as he names several people, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sara and tell us that they ALL died.

Hebrews 11:5 *By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. *

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

There is no doubt that Enoch died. Scriptures tell us in no uncertain terms that he did.

You asked why I didn’t answer your posting of early church father’s teachings. Well I asked for traditions, not comments from hundreds of years later. I asked that you show the Apostolic tradition and you can’t say someone wrote the tradition hundreds of years later. That is no proof at all. That is why I didn’t comment on that.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Scripture states that the time shall come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires, will heap to themselves teachers, having itchy ears and will turn away their hearing from the truth and will be diverted to fables.

This is what you have done with the ECF’s as well as the scriptures. You have a much better chance at answering your own question since this is a practice that you hold fast to.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

The time has come. That’ why so many doctrines don’t have Scriptural support in the RCC.

 

[Old_Scholar]

St. Irenaeus , other Saints, and yet other saints have used scripture over and over again to refute heretics but, you keep on dismissing those scriptures, why ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

It is not I who disregards Scripture. I am the one who said Irenæus and others used them to refute heretics.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Chapter and verse please. I definitely need to be educated on the soul being mortal.

Where are these graves ? I believe you have to say this because it makes it easier for you to debunk the assumption, does it not ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

Already given…

 

[Old_Scholar]

Both catholics & protestants burned bibles that were in error, misprints, words left out, whatever. What is your translation , if you don’t mind me asking ?

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

I use several but my favorite is the KJV. Not the newer one, I like the old wording of the original KJV.

 

[Old_Scholar]

…
I think we should go back & read Acts 15 again, should we
not ? Vs. 7 - James got up… spoke… then all fell silent from his
( James ) speech ? You have to dismiss the first fifteen chapters of Acts to draw this type of interpretation as you have done.
…

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )

No I don’t. James’ words tell the story. He said:

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

His sentence was the final decision. He was the head of the church and the authority was his, no one elses.