E
Elizium23
Guest
Thank you for your well-informed and insightful explanation. This is very satisfying to me.
- Status
J
justme
Guest
Hence the use of the quote marks when I say “obligation”.
No, clear as day. No where in what you have posted does it state that one must attend another sui irius Church’s Liturgy to fulfill the “obligation”.
What you have posted says that we may do so but I do not seen any statement stating that we have to do so.
Also quoting any of the Latin Code is useless as it says;
**Can. 1 The canons of this Code concern only the latin Church. **
V
Vico
Guest
The entire CCEO canon is:Canon 1 The canons of this Code affect all and solely the Eastern Catholic Churches, unless, with regard to relations with the Latin Church, it is expressly stated otherwise.
And it has stated otherwise. The same source, p. 98, continues with:With this parallel codification one can assert that every Eastern Catholic is subject to the common law of the universal Catholic Church, the common law of the Eastern Catholic Churches, and the particular law of the Eastern Church sui iuris, to which he or she is ascribed, and every Latin Catholic is equally subject to the common law of the universal Catholic Church, the common law of the Latin Church, and the personal or territorial particular law (CIC cc. 12-13)
The authority of the source is under-secretary of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. It is enthusiastically endorsed by by late Basil Myron Schott Metropolitan Archbishop of the Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh, who wrote the forward. He states: “It goes without saying that the two current codes continue to regulate inter-ecclesial and inter-ritual relations, even though experienced testifies to the fact that the often-followed praxis does not always correspond to the norm. Therefore, this handbook, … is enthusiastically welcomed with the hope of assisting in the practical solution of our pastoral concerns.”
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
To what “handbook” is this quote of +Metropolitan Basil referring?
S
steve_b
Guest
And you speak for the entire East when you say “obligation” is foreign to Eastern thought? Or are you saying obligation is foreign to your thought.?
m:
The scripture I quoted is very specific about not failing to meet on “the Day” as is the habit of some. That “Day” i.e. the Lord’s day, Sunday.
And that’s what the Church teaches. To deliberately miss mass on Sunday (blow off the Eucharist) is a mortal sin. And we can see why it is a mortal sin when one considers the consequences described in Heb 10 :23…]
Heb 10:
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
Note that scripture teaches deliberately missing mass on Sunday is a grave sin. And it carries with it the most greivous of punishments…hell …if one dies in that sin.
M:
Look again at the consequences in the passage above. This is no simple paddle on the backside for a minor infraction.
S
steve_b
Guest
I think the question to ask is, after one receives the knowledge of truth, who among them that have received the knowledge, is exempted from the following teaching and warning?
iow, who doesn’t need to hold fast to this teaching and warning,
Heb 10:
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
T
theistgal
Guest
As usual in these types of discussions, both sides are missing the vital point, which I’ve bolded below and which malphono posted very early in the thread:
§2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
The key phrase is “in the celebration of the divine praises”.
The whole point is, if you are unable to attend the Divine Liturgy, you should attempt to either go to Vespers or participate in one of the other Canonical Hours from the evening of the vigil till the end of Sunday or the Feast Day.
It does NOT mean that Eastern Christians can just wake up on Sunday morning, yawn and say, “Ho hum, I don’t want to go to church today, I think I’ll just stay in bed and watch football.”
What it DOES mean is that if we are unable to fulfill our obligation by attending the Liturgy, we may still fulfill it by attending Vespers, Matins, or another Canonical Hour.
And as others have tried to point out, Eastern Christians (just like Western Christians) are supposed to WANT to attend the Liturgy!
Some people here seem to think ECs are lazy bums just looking for ways to get out going to Liturgy - not true! We WANT to go! But sometimes traveling, illness and other difficulties present themselves, so this is simply to tell us what to do in those situations.
And since I had to dig through a whole lot of paperwork to find my password, and log in all over again, just to answer this thread, I hope you’ll take it seriously.
Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
§2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
The key phrase is “in the celebration of the divine praises”.
The whole point is, if you are unable to attend the Divine Liturgy, you should attempt to either go to Vespers or participate in one of the other Canonical Hours from the evening of the vigil till the end of Sunday or the Feast Day.
It does NOT mean that Eastern Christians can just wake up on Sunday morning, yawn and say, “Ho hum, I don’t want to go to church today, I think I’ll just stay in bed and watch football.”
What it DOES mean is that if we are unable to fulfill our obligation by attending the Liturgy, we may still fulfill it by attending Vespers, Matins, or another Canonical Hour.
And as others have tried to point out, Eastern Christians (just like Western Christians) are supposed to WANT to attend the Liturgy!
Some people here seem to think ECs are lazy bums just looking for ways to get out going to Liturgy - not true! We WANT to go! But sometimes traveling, illness and other difficulties present themselves, so this is simply to tell us what to do in those situations.
And since I had to dig through a whole lot of paperwork to find my password, and log in all over again, just to answer this thread, I hope you’ll take it seriously.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Thank you for this post. I do not think it is entirely lost among most of your fellow ECs who have posted here, but rather there was emphasis on the spiritual orientation of Eastern Christians as regards “obligations” conceptually in the discussion here to date.
T
theistgal
Guest
Yes, and while I was away it occurred to me another way to look at it, that might help those unfamiliar with how ECs look at this situation, is to think of the Liturgy of the Hours, which is practiced in the West as well. These are not just private prayers that you say on your own but part of the Church’s formal, official worship. We have the Hours in the East as well as in the West, and when you participate in even one of the canonical Hours you are participating in the Church’s worship for that particular day.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Indeed, yet as that relates to “obligations” (assistance on Sundays and Holy Days), it is Orthodox tradition that attendance at Vespers (in the same liturgical day) fulfills the obligation. However, this has not yet be officially “re-adopted”, as it were, in some Eastern Catholic Churches. One would have to look at the norms of Particular Law of a given sui juris Church to make that determination (or, better yet, as your priest or spiritual advisor).
T
theistgal
Guest
Yes - and our priest has given us that very permission (to attend Vespers) on a couple of occasion when we were in charge of preparing a big parish breakfast and knew we wouldn’t have the time to attend liturgy.
And even more shockingly, he gave us permission to attend Vespers at a nearby ORTHODOX church! Don’t faint, Mabel!
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
is outrage !!!and even more shockingly, he gave us permission to attend vespers at a nearby orthodox church! Don’t faint, mabel!
A
Aramis
Guest
Likewise, when one is unable to attend the canonical hours at the parish, many pastors will authorize doing them (possibly with readings), as a reader service at home or at current location to meet the obligation.
For example, I obtained permission a couple years back to use Readers Vespers and Reader’s Matins, in lieu of having to find my way to a parish some 40 miles from where I was going to be staying. Another year, I was ready to go, but was detained (my vehicle was blocked in by two tour busses), and per the pastor’s prior instructions, said reader’s matins.
I’ve heard and read repeatedly from various sources that “obligation” is a word alien to the Byzantine theology sets in terms of Sunday and Holy Day attendance. “Joyful duty” is as close as it gets, and that’s about minimum twice annual confession!
There is some “expectation of participation” but not the strong sense of obligation in the legalist sense that many Roman theologians and canonists seem to support.
So, yes, Con is correct that “obligation” is alien to the Byzantine rite… as what would be held obligatory in the Roman mindset is held to be a dispensible expectation (via oikonomia) in the Byzantine east.
The Byzantine “obligation” theologically is to give due worship to God, be it corporately or privately… and several Byzantine saints were severe hermits, not even going to liturgy for months at a time…
For example, I obtained permission a couple years back to use Readers Vespers and Reader’s Matins, in lieu of having to find my way to a parish some 40 miles from where I was going to be staying. Another year, I was ready to go, but was detained (my vehicle was blocked in by two tour busses), and per the pastor’s prior instructions, said reader’s matins.
I’ve heard and read repeatedly from various sources that “obligation” is a word alien to the Byzantine theology sets in terms of Sunday and Holy Day attendance. “Joyful duty” is as close as it gets, and that’s about minimum twice annual confession!
There is some “expectation of participation” but not the strong sense of obligation in the legalist sense that many Roman theologians and canonists seem to support.
So, yes, Con is correct that “obligation” is alien to the Byzantine rite… as what would be held obligatory in the Roman mindset is held to be a dispensible expectation (via oikonomia) in the Byzantine east.
The Byzantine “obligation” theologically is to give due worship to God, be it corporately or privately… and several Byzantine saints were severe hermits, not even going to liturgy for months at a time…
J
justme
Guest
This is not the case.
I will spell it out agani. My parish has only one Divine Liturgy on Sunday as is proper. If I, for a legitimate reason, miss it am I “obligied” to attend a Roman Mass?
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Well, this is where examination of conscience is needed, and it becomes a personal spiritual matter for an Eastern Catholic.
Did you have truly good cause for missing DL at your parish, in general, which also would have precluded you from assisting at a Roman Catholic Mass or other nearby Eastern Catholic church (if any)?
Were there no other options for you to attend a DL at another Eastern Catholic church, or a Roman Catholic Mass in your area? (i.e. evening Vespers; a Sunday late morning / afternoon Mass)
Do you have a personal objection against attending Mass vs. a Divine Liturgy offered according to your own Church’s canonical rite? If so, does that objection represent a separation from the Catholic Church, in general?
If you live in a community where other Catholic churches are in near proximity, with various Mass / DL times offered, why would you not want to attend at another Catholic Church, if it is impossible for you to make the single scheduled Sunday DL at your own parish?
Bottom line = we are Eastern, but still Catholic, so an outright refusal to consider attending DL or Mass elsewhere for anything other than “good cause” is a subject for further examination of conscience.
R
RyanBlack
Guest
When I miss DL at my parish, which also has only one DL per Sunday, it is usually because my wife and I are exhausted and need a little more sleep. In those cases, we do attend a Mass at one of the many RC parishes within a reasonable driving distance. If we were to mis DL for a reason such as actual illness or having an emergency arise (one that is not quickly resolved), then I think we would not attend services at all on such a Sunday.
T
theistgal
Guest
Have you spoken with your priest about it? If he’s also your confessor and spiritual father, he would be the best person to ask about this. It’s always better to check with someone like that than with people on the Internet who may not know you or your situation all that well.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Tell me, why do you think you aren’t? Isn’t the spiritual purpose of Liturgy the same across all Rites? Thus if you weren’t able to be nourished by one, then you should seek to be nourished in another?
C
Celticnovice
Guest
Well said Constantine
V
Vico
Guest
Legitimate mean “accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements”. There is no law restricting the fulfillment of the obligation to the personal parish, rather the law pertains to participation in any parish in a Catholic rite.
If you miss the Divine Liturgy on Sunday or a Holy Day in your proper parish, then the obligation still remains. If it is still then morally impossible or physically impossible at any Catholic parish that day or prior evening, then there is no obligation to participate. (One is not bound to participate at an Orthodox church, for that would not be in a Catholic rite but an Orthodox rite.) One is also still obliged to keep that day holy and abstain for certain activities, as usual.
- Status