Question about the Apocrypha

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I have heard it said that the apocrypha is not inspired scripture because Jesus and the apostles did not teach from these books. I’m confused about how to respond to these claims.

Can anyone point me to scripture where Jesus and his apostles are teaching from the deuterocanonical books?
 
You’re going to get an answer different from mine from those Catholic posters. The Septuagint was the Greek version of of the scriptures used by the Diaspora, which contained additional books…some of which are used by the Catholic church, some of which are not, but are used by the Orthodox church. Some of the additional books in the LXX are not used as scripture at all by any group.

The writers of the NT used the LXX scriptures as they wrote in Greek. So the quotes and “allusions” they used would have been from the LXX. Did Jesus use the LXX…most likely not as he was a Palestinian Jew…as were his disciples who followed him around Galilee and Judea.

Paul, wrote his letters in Greek…the gospels were written in Greek by anonymous writers, which tradition in the second century ascribed apostles and apostolic associates to them as the authors…even though the gospels themselves do not name their authors…so the writers of the gospels also used the LXX and used the Greek scriptures when citing Jesus quotes.

Did Jesus and the original apostles use the LXX…most likely not…the early church since the majority of the Jewish members were of the Diapora, of whom Paul ministered to most surely did…and eventually as Gentiles became the dominant membership, especially after 70AD, the Greek scriptures were also used.
 
I have heard it said that the apocrypha is not inspired scripture because Jesus and the apostles did not teach from these books. I’m confused about how to respond to these claims.
Jesus and the Apostles did not explicitly teach from the Book of Esther, for instance, but everyone acknowledges that it is inspired Scripture. Those who reject some of the books of the Catholic Old Testament because Jesus and the Apostles did not explicitly teach from them are demanding that those books meet a standard for inspiration which they are not willing to apply to all of the books of the Old Testament that they acknowledge as inspired. If they are going to take it upon themselves to set a standard for inspiration, it should be one that at least all of the Old Testament books they acknowledge as inspire meet, don’t you think?
 
You’re going to get an answer different from mine from those Catholic posters. The Septuagint was the Greek version of of the scriptures used by the Diaspora, which contained additional books…some of which are used by the Catholic church, some of which are not, but are used by the Orthodox church. Some of the additional books in the LXX are not used as scripture at all by any group.

The writers of the NT used the LXX scriptures as they wrote in Greek. So the quotes and “allusions” they used would have been from the LXX. Did Jesus use the LXX…most likely not as he was a Palestinian Jew…as were his disciples who followed him around Galilee and Judea.

Paul, wrote his letters in Greek…the gospels were written in Greek by anonymous writers, which tradition in the second century ascribed apostles and apostolic associates to them as the authors…even though the gospels themselves do not name their authors…so the writers of the gospels also used the LXX and used the Greek scriptures when citing Jesus quotes.

Did Jesus and the original apostles use the LXX…most likely not…the early church since the majority of the Jewish members were of the Diapora, of whom Paul ministered to most surely did…and eventually as Gentiles became the dominant membership, especially after 70AD, the Greek scriptures were also used.
You also have to remember that the term “Septuagint” is really more of a catch-all term for different (originally independent) translations of the Old Testament into Greek made from the period between around the 3rd century BC up to the 1st century AD.
 
You’re going to get an answer different from mine from those Catholic posters. The Septuagint was the Greek version of of the scriptures used by the Diaspora, which contained additional books…some of which are used by the Catholic church, some of which are not, but are used by the Orthodox church. Some of the additional books in the LXX are not used as scripture at all by any group.

The writers of the NT used the LXX scriptures as they wrote in Greek. So the quotes and “allusions” they used would have been from the LXX. Did Jesus use the LXX…most likely not as he was a Palestinian Jew…as were his disciples who followed him around Galilee and Judea.

Paul, wrote his letters in Greek…the gospels were written in Greek by anonymous writers, which tradition in the second century ascribed apostles and apostolic associates to them as the authors…even though the gospels themselves do not name their authors…so the writers of the gospels also used the LXX and used the Greek scriptures when citing Jesus quotes.

Did Jesus and the original apostles use the LXX…most likely not…the early church since the majority of the Jewish members were of the Diapora, of whom Paul ministered to most surely did…and eventually as Gentiles became the dominant membership, especially after 70AD, the Greek scriptures were also used.
You also have to remember that the term “Septuagint” is really more of a catch-all term for different (originally independent) translations various books into Greek made from the period between around the 3rd century BC up to the 1st century AD.
 
I have heard it said that the apocrypha is not inspired scripture because Jesus and the apostles did not teach from these books. I’m confused about how to respond to these claims.

Can anyone point me to scripture where Jesus and his apostles are teaching from the deuterocanonical books?
copied verbatim from ‘why do catholics do that? a guide to the teachings and practices of the catholic church’ by kevin orlin johnson, ph.d:

Evidently, the first of Judaism’s sacred books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) were written down about 1250 B.C. These five books together constitute the written Torah, the basic scripture of the Israelites. The Torah was kept intact, generation upon generation, but as the Jew’s national identity crystallized, as God revealed more and more of his nature and their mission, they wrote more and more books to explain these developments. That’s how we got Joshua, Judges, and the Books of Kings, and the Chronicles (which used to be called Paralipomenon, the Greek for “things left out” of Kings). And that’s why the prophecies of Ezra, Nehemiah, and the others were written down.

These books kept pace with the continuous unfolding of God’s plan of salvation, but the Israelites wrote lots of other books, too. They wrote the Words of the Days of the Kings of Israel and the parallel books for Juda mentioned in Kings. They wrote commentaries on every tiny little point of every Law of Moses that there was. They recorded opinions and saying of the great teachers, and they wrote educational books with the literary technique of using the name of a long-dead prophet who might have said (or ought to have said) such things. By about 200 B.C. it got hard to tell where the basic books left off and the commentaries began.

Help came from a very unexpected quarter: the Pharaoh of Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus, the Greek-speaking successor of Alexander the Great. Ptolemy wanted his great library of Alexandria to have at least one copy of every book in the world, all arranged in order. But - like many of the Jews themselves - Ptolemy couldn’t make much sense out of the mountain of Jewish writing about God and the Covenant. So he commissioned seventy Jewish scholars to come up with a standard canon of Jewish scripture and a standard version of each book in that canon. The collection of forty-six books that the seventy men on this committee established is called the Septuagint, because the Latin word for “seventy” is septuagintus. It’s often abbreviated LXX.

The Septuagint was used universally by Jews right up to the time of Christ. It’s the only scripture that he and the Apostles used (in Hebrew or Aramaic translations, because the original Septuagint was in Greek). When Christ read from prophecy in the synagogue, it was the Septuagint’s Isaiah that he read from (Lk 4:16-21); when he said “search things through Scripture” (Jn 5:39), he meant the Septuagint. These were the books that let his disciples recognize him (Jn 1:45), and reading them makes it very hard to deny that Christ is the Messiah. Everything in these books points to that conclusion: not just the prophecies, but also the laws, poems, and even the histories, which center around that one remarkable family from which he was born.

These things recorded in the books of the Septuagint, things “that were observed and celebrated in obedience to the Law,” St. Augustine explained, “were by the way of prior announcement of Christ who was to come.” The Church naturally adopted the Septuagint as the only inspired Testament to Christ’s nature and mission as promised in the Old Covenant. And just as the Septuagint convinced so many Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, it laid out the same message for Gentiles, a message that had been preserved intact for twelve centuries - a record far beyond purely human means.* To this day, the Septuagint is the sole and official canon of the Church’s Old Testament.

*Then, as now, the preservation of revelation for so long was a powerful point in favor of Christianity. The other major religions of the day were not nearly that old. The Romans dated their state religion to the time of King Numa (715 to 673 B.C); the cults of Mithra, Isis, and Hercules had roots in older creeds but were then known in new forms that had been patched together between 200 and 300 B.C. None of these pagan religions was backed up with anything as consistent and clear as the revelation to the Jews, and the fact wasn’t lost on potential converts.

so, no, i can’t quote where dueterocanonical books were cited, but i hope this shows that you don’t need that to prove the septuagint’s authenticity.
 
The Septuagint was used universally by Jews right up to the time of Christ. It’s the only scripture that he and the Apostles used (in Hebrew or Aramaic translations, because the original Septuagint was in Greek). When Christ read from prophecy in the synagogue, it was the Septuagint’s Isaiah that he read from (Lk 4:16-21); when he said “search things through Scripture” (Jn 5:39), he meant the Septuagint. These were the books that let his disciples recognize him (Jn 1:45), and reading them makes it very hard to deny that Christ is the Messiah. Everything in these books points to that conclusion: not just the prophecies, but also the laws, poems, and even the histories, which center around that one remarkable family from which he was born.
The problem with this quote is that it makes the popular mistake of thinking of and referring to a particular collection as being “the Septuagint.” Many scholars themselves, while they are more aware of the actual situation in those days, still somewhat misleadingly choose to use this shorthand (“The evangelists/Paul quoted the Septuagint,” etc.), as if the disciples consulted a huge, fat codex called ‘The Septuagint’ or Mark or Luke or Paul somehow decided to drop by a local bookstore and decided to purchase their own bound copies.

What the term ‘Septuagint’ means could either be (1) in a strict sense, the earliest translation of the first five books of the Old Testament into Greek (ca. late 3rd century BC) - with the earliest versions of the other books (3rd-1st century BC) being called “Old Greek”; or (2) in a more looser way, as a catch-all reference to the earliest translations of the different books as a whole, or even (3) Scriptural books in Greek that were available to the early Christians, with no care as to whether they were the oldest translations or not.

Also, I would like to point this out. I’ve always been confused with the claim that ‘Jesus quoted the Septuagint.’ I can understand the apostles or other early Christians doing so, but I’m under the impression that Jesus would likely have spoken and taught mainly in Aramaic. Isn’t it possible that He quoted Scripture using the Hebrew or Aramaic translations, but when the authors of New Testament books and letters wrote about Jesus quoting Scripture they mostly just used what was readily available to them instead of translating a passage from scratch (which some of them apparently did do, albeit rarely)?

Quoting myself from another place:
I think its more proper to say that the Septuagint is not so much a ready-made set but a collection of different translations of different Scriptural books. And since they were probably made at different times by different translators (in a period between the 4th-1st century BC), the quality of translation ranges from the highly literal to the paraphrased. Of course a few books which were eventually included were apparently original compositions in Greek (like 2 Maccabees).

I should warn about projecting modern ideas of a fixed, closed canon of Scripture at this time. While the Torah was held by every Jew to be authoritative and people already had pretty good guesses about the Prophets and a few Writings, the ‘canon’ (I’m using it in a loose sense here) was far from being closed: people could conceivably consider other books as authoritative (deutero-canonical) and question some books that were in this de facto ‘canon’. The closing of the canon came with the advance in the technology of the codex. Heretofore the norm was for different writings to be written in different scrolls (or later, codices). And not every community would have had a ‘full set’ of all the writings considered to be of importance. Very often local synagogues (and churches would have owned only those Scriptures that they ‘need’ (the popular ones which were read more often): a Torah scroll, some Prophets (Isaiah seems to have been a mainstay), and a few Writings (like the Psalms). Or one could use alternatives like the so-called testimonia: a collection of different Scriptural quotes, usually centered around a given theme. More convenient and cheaper than buying and keeping different scrolls.
 
Finally, I know I’m quoting this a lot nowadays, but I find convincing E.P. Sanders’ argument (expressed comprehensively in the paper Jesus in Historical Context) that contrary to what some scholars may think, the Galilee and Judaea were not thoroughly Hellenized or Romanized and that it is still mainly ‘Jewish’ in identity.

In order to clarify the extent and the non-extent of Romanization and Hellenization in Palestine, I wish now to offer one more analogy: post-war Germany. The British and Americans (I shall ignore the French) established armies of occupation in Germany after the second world war. Because of the cold war, large concentrations of English-speaking troops have resided in Germany ever since. Moreover, Germany is a frequent place of tourism for Americans. Finally, most German children study English for several years in school. The consequence of all this is that a lot of Germans know a lot of English. There has been far more Anglo-American influence in Germany than there was Greco-Roman influence in Palestine. Yet, if there arose a German evangelist who had a message for the villagers, he would not go to the small churches of the towns and villages and speak English. Much less would he speak in English aphorisms. If by some chance he wandered onto an American military base, and was stopped by the MPs, he might be very glad that he could speak and understand a little English, but otherwise he would not have much use for the language. I believe that the application to Jesus is clear enough. Some scholars propose that he taught in Greek, and specifically in Greek aphorisms.
 
The Septuagint was used universally by Jews right up to the time of Christ. It’s the only scripture that he and the Apostles used (in Hebrew or Aramaic translations, because the original Septuagint was in Greek).
The Dead Sea Scrolls would certainly belie the claim that the Septuagint was being used universally by Jews, as well as the very odd notion that Jesus and the Apostles would have been using Hebrew and Aramaic translations of “the Septuagint.”
 
The problem with this quote is that it makes the popular mistake of thinking of and referring to a particular collection as being “the Septuagint.” Many scholars themselves, while they are more aware of the actual situation in those days, still somewhat misleadingly choose to use this shorthand (“The evangelists/Paul quoted the Septuagint,” etc.), as if the disciples consulted a huge, fat codex called ‘The Septuagint’ or Mark or Luke or Paul somehow decided to drop by a local bookstore and decided to purchase their own bound copies.
well, i imagine that, as these things were on scrolls back then, that they did not have, “a huge, fat codex.” i imagine that they had, as kevin orlin johnson says, a standard canon and a standard version of each book in the canon. you’re right; we take for granted today that such a thing can be gotten and stored for future use in one easy volume. but even though they didn’t have that back then, they did have the septuagint. i think that it says a lot that this standard canon (and a standard form of each book in the canon) was set forth by the greatest jewish scholars of the day, that it had a couple of centuries to become widely accepted, and that no new revelation was added from the time that the septuagint was set forth to the time that Christ brought forth the new covenant.
What the term ‘Septuagint’ means could either be (1) in a strict sense, the earliest translation of the first five books of the Old Testament into Greek (ca. late 3rd century BC) - with the earliest versions of the other books (3rd-1st century BC) being called “Old Greek”; or (2) in a more looser way, as a catch-all reference to the earliest translations of the different books as a whole, or even (3) Scriptural books in Greek that were available to the early Christians, with no care as to whether they were the oldest translations or not.
why would it be any of those things? it seems to me that what was the most authoritative at that time would be the actual septuagint and translations of it. why would the jews eschew what their own elders set forth (even if it was financed by a pagan)?
Also, I would like to point this out. I’ve always been confused with the claim that ‘Jesus quoted the Septuagint.’ I can understand the apostles or other early Christians doing so, but I’m under the impression that Jesus would likely have spoken and taught mainly in Aramaic. Isn’t it possible that He quoted Scripture using the Hebrew or Aramaic translations, but when the authors of New Testament books and letters wrote about Jesus quoting Scripture they mostly just used what was readily available to them instead of translating a passage from scratch (which some of them apparently did do, albeit rarely)?
of course He taught in aramaic. that’s the main language that He and His apostles spoke. as kevin orlin johnson says and as you say, He used aramaic translations of the septuagint. i’m sure that the authors of the new testament did use what translations they had, just as you and i use the english translation of the bible that we have. of course it can’t be as good as the original because things get lost in translation. i don’t think that it matters, as revelation was revealed to them so personally. i’m sure that, since they were taught in large measure by God himself, they still got their teachings right.
 
The Dead Sea Scrolls would certainly belie the claim that the Septuagint was being used universally by Jews, as well as the very odd notion that Jesus and the Apostles would have been using Hebrew and Aramaic translations of “the Septuagint.”
I’m quoting from David H. Lim’s The Dead Sea Scrolls (part of Oxford University Press’ Very Short Introductions series):

‘Text-type’ is an important concept that refers to the version of a particular document or literary composition. Let us say that you are composing a report or essay on your portable computer; you work on it for a while and save it on your hard disk in order to continue it at a later time. A good practice is to save the document in successive versions in order to minimize loss in the event of a crash or corruption of a particular file. Thus, you first save the file as ‘sampledocument.doc’ and having worked on it further save it as another file called ‘sampledocument2.doc’ and so on. If ‘sampledocument2.doc’ becomes corrupt, then you can return to ‘sampledocument.doc’, having lost only the incremental amount between the two. Moreover, you can revert to original formulations and calculations with this electronic paper trail. Each one of these files will share a common core, but will also be a slightly different version. If one were to ask which was ‘the original’ text, then the answer surely depends upon what we mean by the term. The initial commission of your thoughts to writing would be preserved in ‘sampledocument.doc’. However, if by ‘original’ you mean the copy that you sent off or submitted, then it would be the final or official version of the file.

In ancient times, ‘manuscripts’, as the word suggests, were written and copied out by hand. The production of literary works involved the compositional and copying stages, with the Qumran scrolls attesting to the latter. As we know from our own experience of copying, such a process is susceptible to expansions, contractions and all manner of scribal errors. For instance, our eyes could skip from one line to another or from one phrase to another that is either identical or similar. We could misspell a word or mis-form a letter. All these human errors contribute to the creation of different text-types. Other changes are intentional revisions of a text for ideological and religious reasons or mechanical ones, such as the stereotype or consistent rendering of one word by another in the target language.

Before the discovery of the scrolls, there were three previously known text-types of the Hebrew Bible: the Masoretic Text, the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septuagint. The second of these refers to the Torah of the Samaritan community who consider themselves descendants of the ancient Northern Kingdom of Israel. The origins of the Samaritan community is a question of much debate; some sources hold that they were foreigners (2 Kgs 17.24-34), the indigenous people of Samaria (Ezra 4.4), or a sect that broke away from Judaism in the Hellenistic period (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 11.340-345). The Samaritans regard the real sanctuary of God to be situated on Mount Gerizim and not in Jerusalem. They still reside today on that holy mountain in Israel and practise their own traditions. Their version of the Torah is characterized by expansionist and ideological readings. Strictly speaking the Samaritan Pentateuch refers only to the first five books, but the text-type is applied to the rest of the Hebrew Bible by analogy.

In the years following the discovery of the scrolls, Frank Cross proposed a local text theory that identified geographical areas with the three text-types. Accordingly, the Masoretic Text was representative of the Babylonian, the Samaritan of the Palestinian and the Septuagint of the Egyptian location. Cross classified all the Qumran biblical scrolls into one of the three text-types. For instance, 4QSam[sup]a[/sup] was considered a non-Masoretic Text much closer to the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Yet this text also has affinities with the Masoretic Text, the so-called proto-Lucianic text (a revision of the Greek translation), Chronicles and Josephus’s text of Samuel.

It became evident that the Qumran biblical texts could not be so pigeon-holed. A rival view was advanced by Emanuel Tov which posited a multiplicity of biblical text-types. Tov preferred to call them textual ‘groups’, but the more common designation is ‘text-types’. There were not just three text-types, but at least five or more groups of texts. Tov provided the following statistical data on the textual characteristics of the Qumran biblical scrolls: 35% were proto-Masoretic Text; 15% were pre-Samaritan; 5% were Septuagintal; 35% were non-aligned: 20% were texts written in the Qumran practice. Note that the total of 110% is due to the double counting of some of the texts in categories 1, 4 and 5, and category 4 is a ‘catch all’ for non-aligned and independent texts. Moreover, category 5 is a controversial group based upon the scribal practice of the Qumran community; not everyone agrees that this is a text-type.

It is now widely recognized that the Qumran biblical scrolls attest to a greater number of text-types than was previously thought. The Masoretic Text is surely an important text-type; it may even be argued that it was the dominant text-type, but there were several others that cannot be discounted. Some scholars, usually of the more conservative position, continue to hold the Masoretic Text as the text of the Hebrew Bible and all other text-types as translational, interpretative or recensional derivatives, even though they do not exhibit any of the relevant textual characteristics. This ‘Masoretic Text fundamentalism’, as it is called, prejudges the new evidence of the Qumran scrolls with unwarranted convictions.
 
why would it be any of those things? it seems to me that what was the most authoritative at that time would be the actual septuagint and translations of it. why would the jews eschew what their own elders set forth (even if it was financed by a pagan)?
Okay. “Why would it be any of those things?”

First of all, let’s address the Letter of Aristeas. It is a work which describes the Greek translation of the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) by seventy-two interpreters sent into Egypt from Jerusalem at the request of the librarian of Alexandria, resulting in the Septuagint translation. The author of the letter alleges to be a courtier of “Ptolemy” (presumably Ptolemy II Philadephus, reigned 285-246 BC) himself. In the letter, the author relates how the king of Egypt was urged by his chief librarian Demetrius of Phaleron to translate the Torah into Greek, and so add the knowledge of the Hebrews to the vast collection of books the empire had already collected. The king responds favorably to this idea; he begins to liberate the Jews who had been taken into captivity by his predecessors, and sends lavish gifts to the Temple in Jerusalem along with his envoys. In response to the request the high priest chooses exactly six men from each of the twelve tribes, giving 72 in all; he then gives a long sermon in praise of the Law. When the translators arrive in Alexandria the king weeps for joy and for the next seven days poses philosophical questions to the translators (which they duly answer). The seventy-two translators then complete their task in exactly seventy-two days. The Jews of Alexandria, on hearing the newly-made translation, request copies to be made and lay a curse on anyone who would dare change it. The translators then return home duly rewarded.

This is a very well-known story, one that has been repeated by subsequent generations of Jewish and Christian authors, getting elaborated every time it is retold. In fact, the Talmud (3rd-5th century AD) presents a highly-condensed version:

King Ptolemy once gathered seventy-two Elders. He placed them in seventy-two chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one’s room and said: “Write for me the Torah of Moses, your teacher.” God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did.

There is, however, a small problem with the Letter: the story is most likely to be fictional. For one, there is the matter of historical errors and inconsistencies in the text (Leonhard Rost, Judaism Outside the Hebrew Canon, p. 102):

The author claims to be a Greek—that is, non-Jewish—official in the court of King Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-246), who was one of the leaders of the mission to the high priest Eleazar and is now reporting what happened to his brother Philocrates. This statement is a fiction. The letter shows clearly that the author was an Alexandrian Jew living considerably later (§§ 28, 182) than the events described. He commits historical errors: Demetrius of Phaleron had been banished around 183 B.C. and had died soon afterwards; he could therefore not have been in office as the administrator of the library. The sea battle against Antigonus near Cos (258 B.C.) was a defeat, not a victory, as § 180 states; and the battle of Andros did not take place until the final year of Ptolemy II’s reign—247 B.C. Menedemus is said to have been at the banquet, but it is dubious whether he ever came to Egypt from Eretria (§ 201). These discrepancies are cited by H. T. Andrews. Bickermann, besides citing some earlier observations, adds the demonstration that various idioms in the Letter do not occur until the middle of the second century and later. Examples are the phrase ‘if it seems good’ (§ 32), the title ‘chief bodyguard(s)’ in the plural, and the formula ‘greetings and salutations.’ It is therefore best to follow M. Hadas and date the Letter around the year 130 B.C. Wendland assumes that it was composed between 97 and 93 B.C. Willrich and Graetz suggest the reign of Caligula, but this dating is too late, since Aristeas presumes that the island of Pharos is inhabited, whereas Caesar had made it uninhabitable in 63 B.C.

James VanderKam (An Introduction to Early Judaism, pp. 84-85) adds:

There has been a long debate among scholars regarding whether the Letter tells us anything historically reliable about the translation of the law into Greek. It is not impossible that the process happened or started in Philadelphus’s reign since use of the translation is attested by ca. 200 BCE. It seems unlikely on general grounds that it all transpired just as the Letter claims. It is possible that the Letter was written in part to defend the validity of the Torah in Greek in face of claims made for the sole sufficiency of the Hebrew version. In later Christian retellings of the story about the translation found in the Letter, the tale expanded so that eventually the entire Hebrew Bible was involved (so Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 68:6-7); indeed, all the translators worked on the entire project independently, and when they compared their results at the end, wonder of wonders, every one of them was exactly alike (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.21.2)."
 
Nevertheless, there is a grain of truth in the story. The Torah/Pentateuch section of the ‘Old Greek’ version indeed dates from the 3rd century BC. Proofs for this include the fact that the Greek is representative of early Koine used during the time period, as well as citations and early manuscripts datable to as early as the 2nd century BC. However, in the case of the other books, it is not altogether clear which was translated when or where the translation was undertaken. It seems that other books were translated from between the 3rd-2nd century BC: some books may even have been translated twice, into different versions, and then revised. Note that the quality and style varies considerably from book to book, ranging from the literal to paraphrasing to interpretative. Still, nearly all attempts at dating specific books, with the exception of the Pentateuch, are tentative.

In short, there was probably no ‘the Greek translation’: instead, one should think of different versions of a single book probably floating around in circulation.
well, i imagine that, as these things were on scrolls back then, that they did not have, “a huge, fat codex.” i imagine that they had, as kevin orlin johnson says, a standard canon and a standard version of each book in the canon.
Correct! The codex was not attested until the 1st century BC. 😉 There is, however, a problem with the idea that they had “a standard canon and a standard version of each book in the canon.” On the contrary, Jews of the time had anything but. Quoting myself again: “I should warn about projecting modern ideas of a fixed, closed canon of Scripture at this time. While the Torah was held by every Jew to be authoritative and people already had pretty good guesses about the Prophets and a few Writings, the ‘canon’ (I’m using it in a loose sense here) was far from being closed: people could conceivably consider other books as authoritative (*deutero-*canonical) and question some books that were in this de facto ‘canon’.”

Josephus, for instance, says this in his work Against Apion (1.8):

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them.

Josephus is our earliest reference to a ‘fixed’ collection of Jewish Scriptures. As per his reckoning, his ‘canon’ consisted of: (1) the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy); (2) the Prophets (Joshua, Judges-Ruth, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah-Lamentations, Ezekiel, Minor Prophets, Job, Daniel, Chronicles, Ezra-Nehemiah, Esther); (3) the “four books”: Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs. This is almost identical (but at the same time, different) to the later rabbinic categorization of twenty-four books (counting Ruth and Lamentations separately from Judges and Jeremiah, respectively) into the tripartite category of Law-Prophets-Writings. There might also be a reference to the tradition of reckoning twenty-four (as opposed to Josephus’ twenty-two) books in a near-contemporary apocryphal work known as 2 Esdras (aka 4 Ezra):

And on the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, “Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink.” Then I opened my mouth, and behold, a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire. And I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, for my spirit retained its memory; and my mouth was opened, and was no longer closed. And the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, in characters which they did not know. They sat forty days, and wrote during the daytime, and ate their bread at night. As for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night. So during the forty days ninety-four books were written.

And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, “Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge.” And I did so.
 
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I’ll say it again: the thing is, there was probably no fixed, closed ‘canon’ in the sense that we understand it at that time period. As we can see from Josephus, the protocanon was more or less already in place by the late 1st century AD, and the gospels speak about “the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms” (Luke 24:24); however, even that is not positive evidence for an official canon. At least, it did not stop some rabbis in the 2nd century from doubting and debating whether Ecclesiastes (too skeptical) or Song of Songs (too erotic) should be considered to be of any authority at all. Not to mention that in the case of Greek, it did not stop certain people from holding other works - either translations or original compositions - to be authoritative as well (like Tobit or 2 Maccabees).

In the case of Qumran, we have fragments from most of the protocanonical books (excluding Esther and Nehemiah - although an apocryphal work strongly resembling the former, known as “Proto-Esther,” and a bit of Nehemiah’s companion work Ezra was found). Among the 211 manuscripts, the best attested are the Psalms (37 copies), Deuteronomy (30) and Isaiah (21). It stands mentioning that these three books are the books most often cited in the New Testament (Psalms 68 times, Isaiah 63 times, Deuteronomy 39 times). Fragments of deuterocanonical and apocryphal works have also been found like Sirach (aka Ben Sira), Tobit, Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and Psalms 151, 154 and 155. Their presence leads some scholars to believe that perhaps the Qumran sectarians considered these books to be on par with the protocanonical ones; they consider the fact that Sirach and the Testament of Levi are quoted in sectarian works in the standard way of referring to a biblical passage, “as He (or it) said,” telling. However, other scholars are not too sure: after all, there is a reference to 1 Enoch in the epistle of Jude (15-16) but most Christians (save for Ethiopians) have never considered it canonical; the later rabbis even quoted from Sirach in the same manner in which they quote biblical passages (in fact, it was well-known enough that a medieval Jewish work gave itself the title of Alphabet of Ben-Sira!), yet they prohibited public reading of the book. In fact, one could point out that the Semitic texts (or the Greek translations) of the deuterocanonical and apocryphal texts display the same level of unification as do the protocanonical books (which are themselves divergent from one another).
of course He taught in aramaic. that’s the main language that He and His apostles spoke. as kevin orlin johnson says and as you say, He used aramaic translations of the septuagint.
As Dave has already said, I think Johnson may have phrased it a bit incorrectly. There were no “Aramaic translations of the Septuagint” (there are indeed Latin translations of the Greek OT made by later Christians, but that’s not what we’re talking about ;)): IMHO Jesus most likely read from a Hebrew text (I avoid saying the Hebrew text here because as my reply to Dave shows, the Hebrew Bible originally had different and diverse text-types: the Hebrew text used for the Greek OT is a different text-type from the ‘standard’ Hebrew text known as the Masoretic Text. In case you’re wondering, the same goes for the NT) or an Aramaic translation/paraphrase of said Hebrew text. It’s not impossible that He could have read from the same textual version from which the Greek OT was translated from or a close relative, but I wouldn’t really put it as an “Aramaic translation of the Septuagint.”
 
I’ve heard elsewhere that about 2/3 of the time it seems as if Jesus is using “Septuagint like texts” and 1/3 of the time using “Masoretic like” texts.

Is this true?

The quotations of “Septuagint like” and “Masoretic like” are my understanding because as you say patrick457–there was no monolithic text that was used by everyone.

I’ve also heard that the “Septuagint like” texts more closely match the Dead Sea Scrolls than the “Masoretic like” texts do though certainly that is always not the case.

It always bothered me that anyone would give preference to the Masoretic text as the Protestant translations do because it wasn’t finalized as a text type until the 800s or 900s–is that correct? And that was what Jewish scholars came up with and not christans.

I guess what I’m really saying is that for the Majority of instances that the “Septuagint like” text is a more accurate translation than the “Masoretic like” text.

Is that correct?

If that is correct why do modern Catholic English translations tend to favor “Masoretic like” translations over “Septuagint like” translations when it comes to the Psalms?

Lastly do the New Grail Psalms reflect more Masoretic influence or Septuagint influence and why?
 
I’ve also heard that the “Septuagint like” texts more closely match the Dead Sea Scrolls than the “Masoretic like” texts do though certainly that is always not the case.
As Patrick has shown, it’s actually just the opposite–only a small portion (5%) of the Dead Sea Scrolls seem to be “Septuagint like” texts.
It always bothered me that anyone would give preference to the Masoretic text as the Protestant translations do because it wasn’t finalized as a text type until the 800s or 900s–is that correct? And that was what Jewish scholars came up with and not christans.
The Dead Sea Scrolls show there were “Masoretic like” texts already prior to the time of Jesus and, most probably, prior to the Septuagint.
I guess what I’m really saying is that for the Majority of instances that the “Septuagint like” text is a more accurate translation than the “Masoretic like” text.

Is that correct?
I don’t think you could say that. I think all you can say is that the two are different.
If that is correct why do modern Catholic English translations tend to favor “Masoretic like” translations over “Septuagint like” translations when it comes to the Psalms?
Catholic translations that are most utilized today are either based on the Masoretic Text or are a translation of the Latin Vulgate, a translation which at times favors Septuagint readings and at times favors Masoretic readings. So it’s not only the Psalms that are translated from the Masoretic Text, it’s the entire Bible except for the Deuterocanon. Sometimes when the Septuagint reading differs there will be a footnote indicating such.
Lastly do the New Grail Psalms reflect more Masoretic influence or Septuagint influence and why?
Masoretic. It’s considered the best diplomatic (single version) text in existence, particular since no one has yet published a critical edition (preferred readings in the opinions of scholars) of the Hebrew Bible, although I knew of two that are in the works.
 
why would it be any of those things? it seems to me that what was the most authoritative at that time would be the actual septuagint and translations of it. why would the jews eschew what their own elders set forth (even if it was financed by a pagan)?
It is unlikely that the Septuagint would have carried any authoritative weight with non-Greek speaking/reading Jews of the time—who were likely in the majority.
 
Dave has already given his answers, so I’ll only give some additions.
I’ve heard elsewhere that about 2/3 of the time it seems as if Jesus is using “Septuagint like texts” and 1/3 of the time using “Masoretic like” texts.

Is this true?
Rather than say “Jesus is using” them, I think it is more accurate to say that “the Evangelists are using” them. It is true that for most of the time, the gospels either quote or allude to the Old Greek.

Out of the four gospels, Matthew is the one who diverges the most: out of all the fulfillment quotations in his gospel, only three (1:23; 3:3; 13:14-16 - all interestingly quotes from Isaiah) are Septuagintal. The rest are unique translations/paraphrases/interpretations which interestingly reveals influence from the Masoretic text or from Aramaic targumim. It is impossible to know whether Matthew himself was responsible for bringing his Greek closer to the underlying Hebrew or whether he had employed a Greek translation which has done so. In other instances, for example, in material Matthew shares with Mark, are based on the Septuagint, but all other quotations and allusions in the synoptic materials have evidence of the same kind of “mixed form” as that in the fulfillment quotations. Mark, by contrast, predominantly uses Septuagintal quotations (1:2-3; 7:6-7; 12:10-11; 12:36), although in a few passages he departs from it (4:12, which departs from both the Hebrew and LXX). Same goes for OT allusions (4:29 “But when the fruit yields itself, immediately he sends out the sickle, for the harvest has come;” cf. Joel 3:13 MT). Matthew and Mark share at least 40 allusive translations: of these 11 are the same as the LXX, 12 are non-Septuagintal, and 8 are a mixture of Septuagintal and non-Septuagintal.

Luke’s gospel has relatively few direct quotations (most of which are from the Psalms, Isaiah, or the minor prophets), although the book is filled with allusions: out of all the quotations and references, only 7:27 is non-Septuagintal, with the rest being either verbatim or adapted quotations. In four passages of John where he quotes the OT, his Greek is Septuagintal (10:34; 12:13, 38; 19:24); in several others he makes some minor adaptations to suit the context (1:23; 2:17; 6:31, 45; 15:25; 19:36); in yet four others he diverges completely from the Old Greek (12:15, 40; 13:18; 19:37).
The quotations of “Septuagint like” and “Masoretic like” are my understanding because as you say patrick457–there was no monolithic text that was used by everyone.
I’ve also heard that the “Septuagint like” texts more closely match the Dead Sea Scrolls than the “Masoretic like” texts do though certainly that is always not the case.
This is incorrect. While it is true that there are fragments found in Qumran which closely match the possible Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint (a Vorlage, if you prefer scholarly jargon) as well as fragments of the Old Greek translation (or translations)*, there aren’t that many of them. As mentioned, Hebrew manuscripts which attest to the Septuagintal form of text are only five percent of the total, in contrast to the so-called ‘proto-Samaritan’ text-type (15%) or the ‘proto-Masoretic’ version (35%).
  • We have fragments of Exodus (pap7QLXXExod), Leviticus (4QLXXLev[sup]a[/sup], pap4QLXXLev[sup]b[/sup]), Numbers (4QLXXNum), Deuteronomy (4QLXXDeut), and a badly-mutilated bit of the Epistle of Jeremiah (pap7QEpJer gr) found at Qumran, as well as a copy of the minor prophets found at Naḥal Ḥever (8ḤevXII gr). And even then, the Naḥal Ḥever minor prophets scroll seem to have been systematically ‘corrected’ to correspond more closely to the proto-Masoretic Text.


http://imageshack.us/a/img705/331/mprsb.jpg

 
To give some mental image of what we’re talking about, here is a description of how the prophetic books (I won’t go all the way through the OT yet :p) are attested at Qumran.

Isaiah: As mentioned earlier, Isaiah is one of the best-attested biblical book at Qumran, with twenty-one manuscripts recovered (two in Cave 1, eighteen in Cave 4, and one in Cave 5). One more was discovered farther south at Wadi Muraba’at (MurIsa). These were copied over the course of nearly two centuries, from about 125 BC (1QIsa[sup]a[/sup], aka the Great Isaiah Scroll) to about AD 60 (4QIsa[sup]c[/sup]). For Isaiah the scrolls and other ancient witnesses preserve apparently only one edition, with no consistent patterns of variant readings or rearrangements. Some are especially close to the Masoretic Text (1QIsa[sup]b[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]a[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]b[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]d[/sup], 4QISa[sup]e[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]f[/sup], and 4QIsa[sup]g[/sup]), while others contain some interesting variants which could be grouped into four categories.
  • One type of variant involves one or more verses present in some texts but not in others. For example, 2:9b-10 are absent from the Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa[sup]a[/sup]), but are recorded in 4QIsa[sup]a[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]b[/sup], the Masoretic Text, and the Septuagint. By contrast, verse 22 is not in the Hebrew text translated by the Septuagint, but is included in 1QIsa[sup]a[/sup] and the Masoretic.
  • A second category involves errors (either actual or hypothetical) on the part of the scribe or the text that he was copying. For example, the scribe who wrote 1QIsa[sup]a[/sup] accidentally skipped over 16:8b-9 (a homeoteleuton).
  • A third category involves differences in spelling, the forms of names, the use of plural versus the singular, and changes in word order. Qumran scribes are well-known for their use of certain consonants to indicate vowels, for example like using yodh (y, י) or waw (w, ו) to suggest the vowels i or o or u. So for example, the word ki “because, for,” which in biblical Hebrew is spelled with the consonants kaph and yodh (כי), is frequently spelled at Qumran with an additional final aleph (כיא), and the word Adonai, which is conventionally spelled as 'dny (aleph-daleth-nun-yodh, אדני) would sometimes be written as 'dwny (אדוני), with an extra waw.
  • The final category includes a wide spectrum of variant readings, usually a single word or two, on a lesser scale than the compositional variants in the first category, yet more important than the mostly insignificant variants in the third. So for example, in 1:15, which in 4QIsa[sup]f[/sup] and the Masoretic concludes with “your hands are filled with blood,” while 1QIsa[sup]a[/sup] adds “your fingers with iniquity,” thus completing the parallelism. Another example is at 2:20, which in the Masoretic goes like “which they have made for themselves to worship,” but which in the Great Isaiah Scroll goes like “which their fingers have made to worship.” 53:11 is particularly interesting: a particularly difficult reading in the traditional text (“He shall see of the travail of his soul”) is transformed by the addition of a single word (“Of the travail of his soul he shall see light”) in three scrolls (1QIsa[sup]a[/sup], 1QIsa[sup]b[/sup], 4QIsa[sup]d[/sup]; cf. LXX).
Jeremiah: Six scrolls of this book, one in Cave 2, and five in Cave 4, were found at Qumran. These were copied over approximately two hundred years, ranging from about 200 BC (4QJer[sup]a[/sup], one of the oldest scrolls) to the latter part of the 1st century BC (4QJer[sup]c[/sup]). Two of these (4QJer[sup]a[/sup] and 4QJer[sup]c[/sup]) agree with the Masoretic, but the others present a different Hebrew text. The text in these other scrolls is Septuagintal: it does not only agree with the Septuagint in small details, but also where the Greek translation differs markedly from the Masoretic. In fact, 4QJer[sup]b[/sup] and 4QJer[sup]d[/sup], like the Septuagint present a version of Jeremiah that is 13 percent shorter than the longer version found in modern Bibles. Scholars recognize these two versions (the shorter one attested by the Septuagint, 4QJer[sup]b[/sup] and 4QJer[sup]d[/sup], and the longer one, represented by the Masoretic, 4QJer[sup]a[/sup] and 4QJer[sup]c[/sup]) to be two different editions of the same text. For example, while the Masoretic Text includes all of Jeremiah 10:3-11 (a satire on idols), the Greek and 4QJer[sup]b[/sup] lack verses 6-8 and 10.
 
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