Question about the Confiteor at mass

[OraLabora]

Go read his book. Go read his book. I’m not a research assistant who is going to write a scholarly paper on a 900 page tome.

You could at least provide a citation from his book.

But I suspect you can’t, because it’s not there. The quote you provided is not from his book, it is a misquote, and out of context on top of it, out of a 53 year old newspaper interview.

In fact the book states that the three-year lectionary in fact departed from Protestant practice which until then had a similar lectionary cycle as the Tridentine liturgy. Moreover even a cursory knowledge of High-Church Protestantism would show that other than the vernacular, their Liturgy more closely resembles the Tridentine Liturgy than the post-Conciliar Catholic liturgy. So the notion that the new Catholic Mass was designed to be more “Protestant” is a strange one to say the least.

 

[KMG]

Take it up with Bugnini. His book is clear about his Protestant biases.

 

[Tulitas]

Bravo. Good work Ora.
Thank you.

 

[OraLabora]

Take it up with Bugnini. His book is clear about his Protestant biases.

Bugnini is dead.

I have access to the book and I will continue to read through it. So far I have seen nothing of what you assert. If you can’t provide proof, it’s at best an opinion, at worst, calumny of someone no longer around to defend himself.

 

[KMG]

Go read Bouyer’s book too then. He worked with the man, and describes in detail the lies he told to get what he wanted liturgically.

 

[ColorMomma]

What exactly are your credentials? Do you have a degree in liturgy? Have you completed seminary? “When people want to destroy religion they begin by attacking the priest; for when there is no priest, there is no sacrifice: and when there is no sacrifice, there is no religion.”
— St. John Vianney

 

[semper_catholicus]

I apologize. I didn’t know I had to have completed seminary or have a degree in theology to read the rubrics of the Roman Missal and the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

And where did I attack a Priest?

 

[OraLabora]

Go read Bouyer’s book too then. He worked with the man, and describes in detail the lies he told to get what he wanted liturgically.

From the quotes I’ve seen online he paints Abp. Bugnini as a two-faced schemer. I did not see any assertions about Bugnini wanting to make the Mass “Protestant”. Perhaps you’d care to share a quote or two?

 

[Spyridon]

@semper_catholicus

What I will concede to you about this, is this: I see no real reason why certain prayers - the Introits, the Confiteor, the Collects, the Offertory and the Secrets, the Communion Antiphons and the post-Communiins - needed to be changed. I don’t really understand why they didn’t simply import these prayers verbatim from the Tridentine form into the New Order.

@OraLabora do you know the reasoning why these prayers were modified or completely rewritten, and why the ancient Tridentine forms were not simply carried over into the New Order?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

exaggerations are untruths, lies, deceit

 

[semper_catholicus]

Okay, I apologize.

The point was, there are too many options.

 

[Spyridon]

@semper_catholicus Compare the Collect for today (Thursday of the third week after Pascha) in the Tridentine Order:

"O God, who, by the humility of Thy Son, didst lift up a fallen world, grant unending happiness to Thy faithful: that those whom Thou hast snatched from the perils of endless death, Thou mayest cause to rejoice in everlasting days.

Through the same Jesus Christ, thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end.
R. Amen."

With that in the New Order:

"Almighty ever-living God, let us feel your compassion more readily during these days when, by your gift, we have known it more fully, so that those you have freed from the darkness of error may cling more firmly to the teachings of your truth.

Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever."

Now, IMO both prayers are good, holy, orthodox Catholic prayers. But the Tridentine Collect was fine - why wasn’t the Tridentine one simply carried over to the NO? It seems to me like a case of reinventing the wheel - but maybe there were good reasons I’m unaware of? @OraLabora

 

[semper_catholicus]

I agree. It seems like they were trying to make it more difficult for themselves.

Hmmmm. Maybe they had an agenda.

 

[JulianN]

What slippery slope??

 

[Spyridon]

The point was, there are too many options.

I’ll also concede on that point, to a degree.

I would much rather prefer if the Penitential Rite was either the Rite of Asperges or the Confiteor and Kyrie, and the other options done away with.

I do however, think having an option for different Eucharistic Prayers is good too. Personally, I would like to see the Rubrics changed a bit though - EPI aka the Roman Canon should be mandatory on Sunday’s and Solemnities, and strongly recommended on any other day. EPIII should be preferred over EPII for Weekday Masses, and EPII should be consigned to use only when there is a pressing pastoral need to speed up the Liturgy of the Eucharist - but absolutely not on Sunday’s or Solemnities. I always cringe a little when I hear EPII on a Sunday, and I get disappointed and wonder to myself “why didn’t he use EPI or EPIII?”

 

[OraLabora]

What I will concede to you about this, is this: I see no real reason why certain prayers - the Introits, the Confiteor, the Collects, the Offertory and the Secrets, the Communion Antiphons and the post-Communiins - needed to be changed. I don’t really understand why they didn’t simply import these prayers verbatim from the Tridentine form into the New Order.

Actually, in the Graduale Romanum, the Introits, Graduals, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion antiphons are the same as before the Council, so as to preserve the patrimony of Gregorian chant; there are some 20th century compositions, but also largely before the council, for example for the feast of Christ the King which is a 1920s addition to the calendar. Some adaptations were made for year B (the year of St. Marc) which was not in the pre-Conciliar liturgy, but those were not new compositions but rather antiphons taken from the parallel readings of the years of St. Matthew and St. Luke.

I haven’t done a rigorous analysis of the these same antiphons in the vernacular missals to see if they’re faithful translations or not though. Some are definitely translations, if not most, as they are almost all scripture verses, in particular the psalms. It is safe to assume that they are the translations of the appropriate bodies (AELF in French, ICEL, etc.) led by Bishops’ Conferences.

I don’t really know why the collects, etc., were changed. When I’m next at the abbey library (I work there every Wednesday), I can skim through Abp. Bugnini’s book to try and find out more.

The shorter EPs, were for guys like me with sciatica and osteoarthritis who find standing all through EP I a strain

 

[Spyridon]

@semper_catholicus I think you would love the way a certain very traditional Priest prays the Mass here at my Cathedral.

He literally always uses - even on a Weekday - the Confiteor and Kyrie as the Penitential Rite, he only uses the Roman Canon for the Eucharistic Prayer, he always says the Offertory silently so there’s a couple minutes of silence, he’s extremely reverent, his homilies are gold almost always talking about repentance, holiness, and both God’s Mercy and his Justice.

This is our Cathedral, and the Chapel where weekday Masses are said:

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@semper_catholicus if you had access to NO Mass celebrated in that context, would you still take issue with it?

 

[semper_catholicus]

There are certain rubrics which I think should still be changed.

I think it should be said exclusively ad orientem, for example, and I also think that the rubric in the Latin Mass that instructs the priest to keep is index fingers and thumbs stuck together after consecrating the Eucharist should be in the Novus Ordo as well. Just some examples.

 

[Spyridon]

also think that the rubric in the Latin Mass that instructs the priest to keep is index fingers and thumbs stuck together after consecrating the Eucharist

The tradition minded Priest I’m speaking about always holds his fingers together in that way. He also never uses EMHC in his weekday Masses.

He also often uses Latin in the Mass, especially the Agnus Dei, and when he hears Confession usually he gives absolution in Latin.

Ad Orientem he doesn’t use, but I think the reason why is because our Bishop wants the NO celebrated versus populum. Bishop Libasci, my Ordinary, has no issue with ad Orientem though - he set up an FSSP parish in our Diocese a couple years back, and he’s celebrated a Solemn High Pontifical Mass there at least once. He’s also bi-ritual and has faculty to celebrate the Byzantine Rite as well - which is always ad Orientem.

I used to have more of an issue with versus populum than I do now. The Cathedral always uses the Benedictine altar arrangement for Sunday Masses, which makes versus populum much better IMO.

6 large candles and a Crucifix in the middle:

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[semper_catholicus]

Wow!! That’s awesome!! I wish I went there!!

He doesn’t celebrate the Latin Mass himself, does he?

It’s good that he holds his fingers together like that, but that technically violates the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. It’s also good how he doesn’t use EMHC on weekdays. I would like to see them gone as well.