Question about the death penalty

[AngelRose81]

Ok, I know as Catholics we should oppose the death penalty, correct? At least that’s what I understand the church teaches. So what do you do when you are in a discussion with people who are in favor of it and are a little trigger happy when it comes to execution? Some of my friends (who are various protestant denominations) are gung-ho death penalty and I’m uncomfortable when they say things like “oh, he should just be killed right out”, etc. I just don’t know how to react to them. Thoughts?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Ok, I know as Catholics we should oppose the death penalty, correct? At least that’s what I understand the church teaches. So what do you do when you are in a discussion with people who are in favor of it and are a little trigger happy when it comes to execution? Some of my friends (who are various protestant denominations) are gung-ho death penalty and I’m uncomfortable when they say things like “oh, he should just be killed right out”, etc. I just don’t know how to react to them. Thoughts?

First I would say that for all intents and purposes you are correct that the Church is teaching that the death penalty cannot be supported. This is not church teaching at this time however, but it is the clear import of various statements by both JPII and Benedict and is the clear statement of the USCCB.

I generally make this argument. First there is no proof after many many years that shows that executing people in any way reduces murder or other serious crimes. The DP thus is a purely punishment choice. If one believes that every sinner can repent and be saved, who are we as human creatures to upset God’s desire? To execute means we do not feel that there is any redeeming value in some human life, and we usurp the power of God in destroying that life. Such persons, if dangerous, can be securely kept from society. In addition it is vastly cheaper to keep a person in prison than to execute him/her. It requires about a million dollars to do this. Most all civilized countries have already abandoned the DP. Why are we not leading the world? It demeans me as a human to be made a party of such barbarity by my govt. Mostly it is not right to parse life issues in this manner, making subjective determinations that some are worthy of life while others are not. HOpe this helps.

 

[AngelRose81]

First I would say that for all intents and purposes you are correct that the Church is teaching that the death penalty cannot be supported. This is not church teaching at this time however, but it is the clear import of various statements by both JPII and Benedict and is the clear statement of the USCCB.

I generally make this argument. First there is no proof after many many years that shows that executing people in any way reduces murder or other serious crimes. The DP thus is a purely punishment choice. If one believes that every sinner can repent and be saved, who are we as human creatures to upset God’s desire? To execute means we do not feel that there is any redeeming value in some human life, and we usurp the power of God in destroying that life. Such persons, if dangerous, can be securely kept from society. In addition it is vastly cheaper to keep a person in prison than to execute him/her. It requires about a million dollars to do this. Most all civilized countries have already abandoned the DP. Why are we not leading the world? It demeans me as a human to be made a party of such barbarity by my govt. Mostly it is not right to parse life issues in this manner, making subjective determinations that some are worthy of life while others are not. HOpe this helps.

Yes this helps greatly. Thanks!

 

[Ron_Conte]

The teaching of the Church on the death penalty has not changed. The Church has always taught that the dealth penalty can be a moral choice made by civil authority in some cases.

The temporal judgment that perhaps society would be better served, at this point in history and in the current circumstances, by setting aside the use of the death penalty, is not a teaching per se, but an exercise of the temporal authority of the Church.

Cardinal Dulles on the death penalty:
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2175

 

[Genesis315]

As has been pointed out, the the Church believes that the state can have recourse to the death penalty when necessary (it is similar to just war doctrine and self defense doctrine). However, it is the general mind of the Pope and college of bishops today that that the death penalty is not generally necessary and that outlawing it will contribute to a greater good that is needed in modern culture–an increased respect for the dignity and value of human life.

 

[FredSmith]

Jesus Christ instituted the death penalty, so if my church opposed it, I would respectfully disagree with them.

 

[TMC]

The teaching of the Church on the death penalty has not changed. The Church has always taught that the dealth penalty can be a moral choice made by civil authority in some cases.

The temporal judgment that perhaps society would be better served, at this point in history and in the current circumstances, by setting aside the use of the death penalty, is not a teaching per se, but an exercise of the temporal authority of the Church.

Cardinal Dulles on the death penalty:
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2175

As has been pointed out, the the Church believes that the state can have recourse to the death penalty when necessary (it is similar to just war doctrine and self defense doctrine). However, it is the general mind of the Pope and college of bishops today that that the death penalty is not generally necessary and that outlawing it will contribute to a greater good that is needed in modern culture–an increased respect for the dignity and value of human life.

I would add that the Church teaches that there are limits on the application of the death penalty. It cannot be used for vengence, and it cannot be used to save money (by not having to house the criminal). It can only be used to protect others, and maybe for retribution. (Cardinal Dulles mentions retribution, but he admits that this is shaky ground. Retribution and vengence are commonly confused, and its very questionable that capital punishment by a civil authority can be retribution. The catechism does not give retribution as an acceptable ground for capital punishment.)

This is where confusion comes in. A Catholic can say that the death penalty is needed to protect society and be in accord with the Church’s faith and morals teachings, even if at odds with her prudential guidance. (tThis is where the famous Ratzinger comments on differences of opinion come in, IMHO.) A Catholic cannot say that the death penalty should be administered because life imprisonment is expensive, or because the victims want to see the perpetrator dead, without straying from the teachings of the Church.

 

[Genesis315]

This is where confusion comes in. A Catholic can say that the death penalty is needed to protect society and be in accord with the Church’s faith and morals teachings, even if at odds with her prudential guidance. (tThis is where the famous Ratzinger comments on differences of opinion come in, IMHO.) A Catholic cannot say that the death penalty should be administered because life imprisonment is expensive, or because the victims want to see the perpetrator dead, without straying from the teachings of the Church.

That’s a good point. I would like to add that at the end of the day, the responsibility to make this decision falls on the state–whether it be the king, all the people in a pure democracy, or something in between–the administration of criminal penalties is one that falls in the state’s sphere of authority. The state should definitely take into account to prudential judgment of the Pope and the bishops of the nation in question, but those prudential judgments are not strictly binding–of course, those who do have the responsibility of making this decision will bear the weight of judgment by God in that regard as well–an abuse of authority against those entrusted by God to one’s care leads one to a final state of damnation (cf. Luke 12:45-46).

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Ok, I know as Catholics we should oppose the death penalty, correct?

Somewhat, the death penalty is reserved for conditions when better alternative does not exist. That is rare.

… Some of my friends… are gung-ho death penalty and I’m uncomfortable when they say things like “oh, he should just be killed right out”, etc…

Please do not confuse their barbaric actions with me. Their actions are their action; my actions are mine. A fair trial and proper punishment is acceptable to me.

 

[Ron_Conte]

The Bible explicitly states that the death penalty was partly for the purpose of deterence:
[Deuteronomy]
{13:11} So may all of Israel, upon hearing this, be afraid, so that nothing like this will ever be done again.

{19:18} And when, after a very diligent examination, they will have found that the false witness had told a lie against his brother,
{19:19} they shall render to him just as he intended to do to his brother. And so shall you take away the evil from your midst.
{19:20} Then the others, upon hearing this, will be afraid, and they will by no means dare to do such things.

{21:21} Then the people of the city shall stone him to death. And he shall die, so that you may take away the evil from your midst. And so may all of Israel, upon hearing it, be very afraid.

 

[AngelRose81]

Jesus Christ instituted the death penalty, so if my church opposed it, I would respectfully disagree with them.

How so?

 

[estesbob]

Ok, I know as Catholics we should oppose the death penalty, correct? At least that’s what I understand the church teaches. So what do you do when you are in a discussion with people who are in favor of it and are a little trigger happy when it comes to execution? Some of my friends (who are various protestant denominations) are gung-ho death penalty and I’m uncomfortable when they say things like “oh, he should just be killed right out”, etc. I just don’t know how to react to them. Thoughts?

A Catholic is not required to oppose the death penalty. And one should take extreme care not to mislead people into believing this is true. I strongly oppose the death penalty and don’t feel I have to defend my position to anyone. When pressed I tell them that I believe life is the province of God from the moment of conception the moment of natural death. Even one who supports the death penalty should take no joy in a person being executed.

 

[JRKH]

Ok, I know as Catholics we should oppose the death penalty, correct? At least that’s what I understand the church teaches. So what do you do when you are in a discussion with people who are in favor of it and are a little trigger happy when it comes to execution? Some of my friends (who are various protestant denominations) are gung-ho death penalty and I’m uncomfortable when they say things like “oh, he should just be killed right out”, etc. I just don’t know how to react to them. Thoughts?

Honestly, I try not to get sucked into these types of discussions.
It usually involves a specific crime and it really is not a discussion, just emotionally spouting.

As far as how to approach it, I take this view.
The civil state has set up the apparatus for trying and sentencing an individual for a given crime. The state must have the freedom to excersize this authority. In fact it has an obligation to do so. If the person is found guilty and sentenced to execution, I would pray for God’s mercy on his/her soul.

But as I said earlier, I usually try to stay out of these kinds of “discussions”.

Peace

James

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The teaching of the Church on the death penalty has not changed. The Church has always taught that the dealth penalty can be a moral choice made by civil authority in some cases.

The temporal judgment that perhaps society would be better served, at this point in history and in the current circumstances, by setting aside the use of the death penalty, is not a teaching per se, but an exercise of the temporal authority of the Church.

Cardinal Dulles on the death penalty:
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2175

You may excuse what you read any way you like. It remains the clear desire of 2 popes and the USCCB specifically that this barbaric practice be stopped. i am unable to understand why one would wish to go against the Church’s beliefs on this issue, just because technically you can. And I would point out that the USCCB makes this issue just as critical as abortion. It is intrinsically evil.

Since I corrected the OP and correctly stated Church teaching I believe, the point of your post in reminding people that they can still be “for” the death penalty is strangely odd.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

As has been pointed out, the the Church believes that the state can have recourse to the death penalty when necessary (it is similar to just war doctrine and self defense doctrine). However, it is the general mind of the Pope and college of bishops today that that the death penalty is not generally necessary and that outlawing it will contribute to a greater good that is needed in modern culture–an increased respect for the dignity and value of human life.

Correct in my view. It is part of the entire “dignity of life” package from conception to natural death enunciated in Evangelium Vitae, finding support by Benedict and also the USCCB.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I would add that the Church teaches that there are limits on the application of the death penalty. It cannot be used for vengence, and it cannot be used to save money (by not having to house the criminal). It can only be used to protect others, and maybe for retribution. (Cardinal Dulles mentions retribution, but he admits that this is shaky ground. Retribution and vengence are commonly confused, and its very questionable that capital punishment by a civil authority can be retribution. The catechism does not give retribution as an acceptable ground for capital punishment.)

This is where confusion comes in. A Catholic can say that the death penalty is needed to protect society and be in accord with the Church’s faith and morals teachings, even if at odds with her prudential guidance. (tThis is where the famous Ratzinger comments on differences of opinion come in, IMHO.) A Catholic cannot say that the death penalty should be administered because life imprisonment is expensive, or because the victims want to see the perpetrator dead, without straying from the teachings of the Church.

Additionally I believe JPII said directly that given modern penal systems, the convicted person can be reasonably kept from society. That is also contained in Evangelium Vitae.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The Bible explicitly states that the death penalty was partly for the purpose of deterence:
[Deuteronomy]
{13:11} So may all of Israel, upon hearing this, be afraid, so that nothing like this will ever be done again.

{19:18} And when, after a very diligent examination, they will have found that the false witness had told a lie against his brother,
{19:19} they shall render to him just as he intended to do to his brother. And so shall you take away the evil from your midst.
{19:20} Then the others, upon hearing this, will be afraid, and they will by no means dare to do such things.

{21:21} Then the people of the city shall stone him to death. And he shall die, so that you may take away the evil from your midst. And so may all of Israel, upon hearing it, be very afraid.

So you believe JPII, Benedict and the USCCB are all incorrect and not sufficiently aware of the verses you cite? If they are not incorrect then of what use is this to Catholics who are trying their best to follow the clear import of Church teaching?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

A Catholic is not required to oppose the death penalty. And one should take extreme care not to mislead people into believing this is true. I strongly oppose the death penalty and don’t feel I have to defend my position to anyone. When pressed I tell them that I believe life is the province of God from the moment of conception the moment of natural death. Even one who supports the death penalty should take no joy in a person being executed.

I am having a difficult time with your position and logic here.

You say that you personally oppose the death penalty.
The Vatican and USCCB agree with you, in fact JPII specifically used exactly that language of the dignity of the human person from conception to natural death.

But you prefer when asked to tell people that you do so on your own beliefs instead of telling them, “The Catholic Church does not formally infallibly declare all execution to be immoral and against Church teaching. But she does express that there are few instances when it can legitimately be used. So I feel that I am in agreement with the Church on this.”

Why would you wish to either remain silent or say that the church doesn not require a Catholic to oppose it? You do want it stopped don’t you? Why not the most forceful statement then? and one that is true?

 

[James0235]

SpiritMeadow,

Whether it is intentional or not you are misleading people about the Catholic teaching on the death penalty. It is permitted for Catholics to support the death penalty.

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

(Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 2004 A.D., letter to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, #3 )

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More Quotes from Popes and Saints on the Death Penalty

James

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[TMC]

SpiritMeadow,

Whether it is intentional or not you are misleading people about the Catholic teaching on the death penalty. It is permitted for Catholics to support the death penalty.

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

(Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 2004 A.D., letter to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, #3 )

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More Quotes from Popes and Saints on the Death Penalty

James

****

This Cardinal Ratzinger quote is what I referred to in my earlier post. This quote comes from a letter to the US Bishops giving guidance on refusing communion on the basis of publicly held political beliefs. This quote is widely misapplied. Cardinal Ratzinger is not saying that the Church’s teachings on the death penalty, which are set forth as the ordinary teachings of the Magisterium in the catechism at CCC 2266-67, are optional. He saying that there is room for differences of opinion on whether the way the death penalty is applied in a specific instance or by a specific legal framework violates those teachings. He is contrasting this to abortion and euthanasia, becuase there is no room for argument that their application may sometimes be moral.

It is permitted for Catholics to support the death penalty when they believe “this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.” Catholics that support the application of the death penalty outside of these limits are not in accord with Church teaching on the respect of human life.