Question about the Douay Rheims Bible ie: Tobit

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I’m no bible scholar so I need some clarification. I knew that douay rheims was a very different translation then the modern NAB and it got me curious about it so I’ve started reading it myself. I didn’t realize just how different and I started noticing parts that are in the nab but are not in DR. I chalked it up to it just being a really old translation. I don’t know the details and it didn’t bother me too much but then I read the book of "Tobias " tobit in NAB. Particularly chapter 6. And it appears that nab is now the one with missing words and to me it feels drastically different. Can anyone explain this to me? Raphael’s explanation just seems so much more powerful in the DR and in line with Catholic teachings on marriage that to me it almost changes the whole meaning. One is in your face and the other seems between the lines and uh ambiguous. … 😦 Maybe I’m getting carried away. Why is it so different, edited and softened in the NAB? Anyone have any historical insight? Because I really don’t have any. Just assumptions. This bothers me because I compared the two only after reading the doay rheims version thinking “How profound!” then flabbergasted to see the edit.

Douay Rheims :

[16] Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. [17] For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power. [18] But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her. [19] And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away. [20] But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs.

[21] And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. [22] And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.

And the nab : Raphael said to him: “Do you not remember your father’s commands? He ordered you to marry a woman from your own ancestral family. Now listen to me, brother; do not worry about that demon. Take Sarah. I know that tonight she will be given to you as your wife!
17
When you go into the bridal chamber, take some of the fish’s liver and the heart, and place them on the embers intended for incense, and an odor will be given off.
18
As soon as the demon smells the odor, it will flee and never again show itself near her. Then when you are about to have intercourse with her, both of you must first get up to pray.* Beg the Lord of heaven that mercy and protection be granted you. Do not be afraid, for she was set apart for you before the world existed. You will save her, and she will go with you. And I assume that you will have children by her, and they will be like brothers for you. So do not worry.”
When Tobiah heard Raphael’s words that she was his kinswoman, and of the lineage of his ancestral house, he loved her deeply, and his heart was truly set on her.
 
Just from first glance it seems to be an issue of source texts. The Douay-Rheims was taken from the Vulgate and is almost word-for-word what is in there, while the NAB (and most other modern versions) are taken from Greek manuscripts. I’d have to study the texts in parallel a little better, but that’s what it looks like at the moment–the Greek and the Vulgate are probably sourced differently and translated (or else paginated) slightly differently, and so by the time it gets into the Vulgate-derived DRV or the NAB (which is based on the Greek and compared with other manuscripts–the Dead Sea Scrolls contain Hebrew/Aramaic fragments of Tobit which back up what the Greek Septuagint says, even though it is not considered part of the Hebrew Bible), the wording is going to be slightly different. In any event it’s nothing to get too worried about, just translational or verse structure differences (I say that last bit before this turns into a “Flame the NAB, DRV-Only” thread, as these discussions sometimes do).

-ACEGC
 
I think part of the case here is that the Vulgate text of Tobit is different from the Greek text translators use today. Vulgate Tobit is essentially a translation (or to be more exact, a paraphrase) of a translation: this version was made from an Aramaic text which St. Jerome had translated into Hebrew (because he did not know Aramaic) first before it was translated into Latin.

Fragments of Tobit were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Cave 4 in Qumran yielded remains of four Aramaic (4Q196-99) and one Hebrew (4Q200) manuscripts of the book, of which two scrolls - the papyrus Tob[sup]a[/sup] (196) and the leather Tob[sup]b[/sup] - have yielded copious extracts. Now there are two Greek texts: the shorter form, called Greek I (G1) by Robert Hanhart in his edition of the Septuagint, is found in Codex Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Venetus, Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1594 and most cursive manuscripts. This is the preferred text before the mid-20th century and thus was the one used in the KJV and the RSV.

The Greek II (G2) version, which is 1700 words longer, is found in Codex Sinaiticus and partially in cursive manuscript 319 and the 6th-century Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1076[sup]3[/sup]. G2 closely aligns with the Hebrew and Aramaic fragments from Qumran, and thus, is presently deemed by most scholars to be the more original of the two Greek texts. It is the version used by most modern English translations since 1966.

Now, Here is the relevant passage compared with the Vulgate text and the Greek versions:

4Q197, fragment 4 + 4Q196, fragment 14

(10) And when they entered Media and he was already ne[aring Ecbatana, (**11) Raphael said to the young] man, T[o]biah, my brother. And he said to him, Here am I. And he said to him, In the house [of Raguel we shall stay. And the man is from the house of our father. And he has a beautiful daughter … (**12) [And] he has [no other (children) except Sarah a]l[one]. And you are re[lat]ed to her … [And this young girl is wise, stron]g and very beautiful, and her father loves [her] … her father. And a just decision has been made concerning you (13) to m[arry her] … You will speak about this young girl tonight. You will retain her and take her to be your wif[e … And {when we return from [Rages]} (4Q196), [we shall make for her] a wedding-feast. And I know that Raguel cannot refuse her to you for he knows … and to marry his daughter than any (other) ma[n. For h]e kno[ws] that if he were to give her to [another] man [this would be against the law in the Book] of Moses. And not [let us speak about] this [young] gir[l] tonight and let us retain her [for you …

(**14) Then Tobiah replied and said to Rapha]el, Azariah my brother, I have heard … (that she had seven husbands who all died) when they went in to her. … (15) And now I am [af]raid of this demon who {loves her … the demon kills them} (4Q196) …(bring) my [fath]er and my mother [to the grave … They have] no other son [to bury them.]

(16) {[Do you not remember the com]mands of your father} (4Q196) who commanded you … {[And no]w listen to me, my brother. Do not (be afraid of) this [de]mon and marry (her) {tonight … (17) [t]ake from the heart [of the fish: … (**18) … the demon [will sme]ll it and will [flee]} (4Q196)
… (When you go in) [to be wi]th her, ri[se up] … [And do n]ot be afraid [for] she has been allotted to you and for you … you will save [her. And] I suppose that you will have [children by her … And when] Tobiah [h]eard the words of Raphae[l that she was h]s sister and of [the house of his father’s family] he fell in love with her [gr]eatly and his heart (was much attached) to her.

Greek II (New English Translation of the Septuagint)

(10) And when he went into Media and already drew near to Ecbatana, (11) Raphael said to the young man, “Brother Tobias.” And he said to him, “Here I am.” Then he said to him, “This night we must stay in the home of Ragouelos. Now the man is your relative, and he has a (beautiful) daughter whose name is Sarra. (12) And he has no male son or daughter except Sarra alone, and you are closer to her than all other men, to have her as an inheritance. Also the girl is sensible and brave and very beautiful, and her father is noble. (13) And he said, “It is right for you to take her. So listen to me, brother, and I shall speak to the father about the girl this night so that we may take her to be your bride. And, when we return from Rhaga, we shall celebrate her wedding feast. And I know that Ragouel cannot keep her from you or promise her to another; he would be liable to death according to the decree of the book of Moyses. And he knows that the inheritance is yours by right to take his daughter before any other man. So now listen to me, brother, and shall speak this night concerning the girl and have her engaged to you. And, when we return from Rhaga, we shall take her and bring her back with us to your house.”

(14) Then in reply Tobias said to Raphael, “Brother Azarias, I have heard that she already has been given to seven husbands, and they died in their bridal chamber. On the night when they went in toward her, they would die. And I heard people say that a demon kills them. (15) And now I am afraid – for it does not harm her, but anyone who desires to approach her it kills; I am my father’s only son – that I may die and bring my father’s and my mother’s life, because of me, to their grave with sorrow. And they have no other son, that he may bury them.”

(16) But he said to him, “Do you not remember your father’s commandments, that he commanded you to take a wife from your father’s house? So now listen to me, brother, and do not worry about the demon, and take her. And I know that this night a wife will be given to you. (17) Now when you go into the bridal chamber, take some of the fish’s liver and heart, and put them on the embers of the incense, and the smell will go forth. (18) Then the demon will smell it and flee and will never be seen around her any more. And when you are about to be with her, get up first, both of you, and pray, and beseech the Lord of heaven that mercy and safety may be upon you. So do not be afraid, for she was set apart for you from of old. And you will save her, and she will go with you. And I suppose that you will have children by her, and they will be as brothers to you. Do not worry!” Now when Tobias heard the words of Raphael, and that she was his kinswoman of the lineage of his father’s house, he loved her very much, and his heart clung to her.

Greek I (World English Bible)

(9) But when they drew near to Rages, (10) the angel said to the young man, Brother, today we shall lodge with Raguel, and he is your kinsman; and he has an only daughter, named Sarah. I will speak for her, that she should be given you for a wife. (11) For to you does the inheritance of her appertain, and you only are of her kindred: (12) and the maid is fair and wise. And now hear me, and I will speak to her father; and when we return from Rages we will celebrate the marriage: for I know that Raguel may in no wise marry her to another according to the law of Moses, or else he shall be liable to death, because it appertains to you to take the inheritance, rather than any other.

(13) Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, I have heard that this maid has been given to seven men, and that they all perished in the bride-chamber. (14) And now I am the only son of my father, and I am afraid, lest I go in and die, even as those before me: for a devil loves her, which hurts no man, but those which come to her: and now I fear lest I die, and bring my father’s and my mother’s life to the grave with sorrow because of me: and they have no other son to bury them.

(15) But the angel said to him, Do you not remember the words which your father commanded you, that you should take a wife of your own kindred? and now hear me, brother; for she shall be your wife; and make you no reckoning of the devil; for this night shall she be given you to wife. (16) And when you shall come into the bride-chamber, you shall take the ashes of incense, and shall lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish, and shall make a smoke therewith: (17) and the devil shall smell it, and flee away, and never come again any more. But when you go near to her, rise up both of you, and cry to God which is merciful, and he shall save you, and have mercy on you. Fear not, for she was prepared for you from the beginning; and you shall save her, and she shall go with you. And I suppose that you shall have children of her. And when Tobias heard these things, he loved her, and his soul clave to her exceedingly.
 
Vulgate (Douai-Rheims Challoner)

(10) And Tobias said to him: Where will you that we lodge? (11) And the angel answering, said: Here is one whose name is Raguel, a near kinsman of your tribe, and he has a daughter named Sara, but he has no son nor any other daughter beside her. (12) All his substance is due to you, and you must take her to wife. (13) Ask her therefore of her father, and he will give her you to wife.

(14) Then Tobias answered, and said: I hear that she has been given to seven husbands, and they all died: moreover I have heard, that a devil killed them. (15) Now I am afraid, lest the same thing should happen to me also: and whereas I am the only child of my parents, I should bring down their old age with sorrow to hell.

(16) Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will show you who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. (17) For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil has power. (18) But you when you shall take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep yourself continent from her, and give yourself to nothing else but to prayers with her. (19) And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away. (20) But the second night you shall be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs. (21) And the third night you shall obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. (22) And when the third night is past, you shall take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham you may obtain a blessing in children.
 
Thanks for that, Patrick. Definitely very interesting!

-ACEGC
 
edward_george said:
In any event it’s nothing to get too worried about, just translational or verse structure differences (I say that last bit before this turns into a “Flame the NAB, DRV-Only” thread, as these discussions sometimes do).

-ACEGC
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Thanks! Some times I like the translation in the NAB sometimes I like it better in the DR, just as a matter of personal preference. Many times the old English in the DR is really hard for me to understand so I read it over again in the NAB.
 
patrick457, thank you for your posts. I think I understand a bit more although some of it, I feel, is over my head. It looks to me like the Douay Rheims is the most radical of all of them.
 
Kontrak said:
patrick457, thank you for your posts. I think I understand a bit more although some of it, I feel, is over my head. It looks to me like the Douay Rheims is the most radical of all of them.
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To sum in simple words: the Vulgate Tobit is a translation of a translation. 😉
 
I have really enjoyed this thread. Our Permanent Deacon loves the book of Tobit and freqauently speaks of how he uses passages when conducting weddings. From those discussions I knew the basic story but this has been a real revelation. I am going to ask Deacon D if he’s read the various translations and which he prefers.

Lisa
 
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