Question about the Eucharist at Mass

[Esdra]

Stepson, my wife is Roman Catholic and she says that the Priest is allowed to consume the wine for the congregation if they are only given the bread. According to her, it’s just custom and stems from the belief that all of Christ is in one kind of the Eucharist. This is a major historical conflict between our tradition and Roman Catholicism, as Lutherans take the command literally and believe they are required to do both. The complaint is either in the Augsburg confession or the large catechism. Can’t remember which.

Best.

It’s in the Augsburg Confession:

Article XXII: Of Both Kinds in the Sacrament.

To the laity are given Both Kinds in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, because this usage has the commandment of the Lord in Matt. 26:27, Drink ye all of it, where Christ has manifestly commanded concerning the cup that all should drink.

And lest any man should craftily say that this refers only to priests, Paul in 1 Cor. 11:27 recites an example from which it appears that the whole congregation did use both kinds. And this usage has long remained in the Church, nor is it known when, or by whose authority, it was changed; although Cardinal Cusanus mentions the time when it was approved. Cyprian in some places testifies that the blood was given to the people. The same is testified by Jerome, who says: The priests administer the Eucharist, and distribute the blood of Christ to the people. Indeed, Pope Gelasius commands that the Sacrament be not divided (dist. II., De Consecratione, cap. Comperimus). Only custom, not so ancient, has it otherwise. But it is evident that any custom introduced against the commandments of God is not to be allowed, as the Canons witness (dist. III., cap. Veritate, and the following chapters). But this custom has been received, not only against the Scripture, but also against the old Canons and the example of the Church. Therefore, if any preferred to use both kinds of the Sacrament, they ought not to have been compelled with offense to their consciences to do otherwise. And because the division of the Sacrament does not agree with the ordinance of Christ, we are accustomed to omit the procession, which hitherto has been in use.

I’ve got a question for you concerning Lutheranism: What does it say in the Big Catechism of Luther (roughly in a few words)? And why is it not used (?) by the ELCA?

The Austrian Lutheran Church (A.C.) (which would be similar to the US ELCA), has a shortened form of the Augsburg confession on their homepage. To stay at the example above what is marked in blue is missing there. Can you imagine why this has been done? Have you ever seen a shortened form of the A.C.?

 

[Stepson]

Stepson, my wife is Roman Catholic and she says that the Priest is allowed to consume the wine for the congregation if they are only given the bread. According to her, it’s just custom and stems from the belief that all of Christ is in one kind of the Eucharist.

Best.

That’s what it looked like to me. It made sense to me that way. But not knowing, I wanted to ask our Catholic brethren for their faith/traditions.

 

[Stepson]

Hi Esdra,

Was your question about Lutheranism for me or jnpl1185? If it’s for me, I’ll have to get back to you. I don’t have my Book of Concordia to quote it. I’m at Vacation Bible School sitting with my disruptive seven year old son. I guess this is what you call justice because I remember terrorizing my teachers

 

[jnpl1185]

Esdra, could you clarify your question? Do you mean what does it say generally? The small catechism just gives an explanation of the commandments and sacraments and some prayers for the heads of families.

The ELCA still accepts the entire Book of Concord, even though it is a bit more liberal other groups in the US. If you are from Austria (as you seem to hint in your post) and are familiar with German Lutheranism, the LCMS is more similar to the German SELK while the ELCA is more similar to the German state church. I am living in Germany and would be interested to know what Lutheranism is like in Austria.

No, I haven’t ever seen a shortened version of the Confession–I imagine it was just shortened for readability, but I don’t know.

Viele Grüße!

 

[Esdra]

Esdra, could you clarify your question? Do you mean what does it say generally? The small catechism just gives an explanation of the commandments and sacraments and some prayers for the heads of families.

Yes, actually I meant that. But now I’ve already read myself what the Great Catechism (?) of Martin Luther says: It’s about the 10 commandments and it’s rather large per commandment…
I’ve read that the Great Catechism is only used by the SELK and LCMS? Do I remember falsly?

The ELCA still accepts the entire Book of Concord, even though it is a bit more liberal other groups in the US. If you are from Austria (as you seem to hint in your post) and are familiar with German Lutheranism, the LCMS is more similar to the German SELK while the ELCA is more similar to the German state church. I am living in Germany and would be interested to know what Lutheranism is like in Austria.

Oh that’s really nice meeting a guy from Europe, even from Germany!

So you are in the SELK then?

No, I haven’t ever seen a shortened version of the Confession–I imagine it was just shortened for readability, but I don’t know.

Viele Grüße!

Yes, possibly

Some Info about the Evangelical Church in Austria (Lutheran and Reformed).

The Lutheran Church in Austria is nearly everywhere joined together with the Reformed Church.
The Church is called: Evangelical Church A.C. and H.C. (Evangelische Kirche A.B. und H.B.). In Austria, though, there are not very much Reformed Evangelicals.
In the east of Austria there are some rather small Reformed-only Churches. In the rest of Austria they are, as mentioned above, joined together with the Lutheran Evangelical Church.
The Leuenberg Agreement (this is by the way the Homepage of the Evangelical Church in Austria, as I assume you are a native speaker of German, you can have a look at it to learn more about the Lutheran Church in Austria) grants full Altar and Pulpit Union between the Reformed and the Lutherans.

Oh, before I forget, I am not Lutheran nor Reformed, I am attending a small Baptist Church in the neighbouring Town. (called Evangelikale Freikirche)
And if you ask yourself, why I know so much about the Evangelical Church in Austria, I have studied both confessions, the Helvetic (Reformed tradition) as well as the Lutheran (Augsburg) Tradition.
I wanted to learn more about my “Church Fathers” (as, without Luther, Calvin and Zwingli there wouldn’t be any Baptists! )
I personally prefer the reformed Tradition of Evangelical Protestantism. - But I think this has to do with the fact, that they are, only judging from their confession and catechism, are VERY similar to the Baptists. (I know people here will disagree. But I tell you this is really the case! US Baptists are not the same than their European counterparts!

Liebe Grüße nach Deutschland,
(Best wishes to Germany,)

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra,

Was your question about Lutheranism for me or jnpl1185? If it’s for me, I’ll have to get back to you. I don’t have my Book of Concordia to quote it. I’m at Vacation Bible School sitting with my disruptive seven year old son. I guess this is what you call justice because I remember terrorizing my teachers

Well, no matter who answers it. - You are both Lutherans.
(see also my post above.)

Yes, that’s what you call justice! Why did you have to terrorize your teachers?!

 

[Joe_5859]

I do believe you that it’s possible…
But I just wanted to state that I’ve never seen that in my parish so far.
Either only the Body (which is usually the case) or both (which I have seen VERY seldom so far).
Just talking about my parish and the neighbouring ones I’ve visited so far.

I know a couple people with severe wheat allergies who will receive only from the Cup. Ordinarily, those are the only people I’ve ever witnessed receive from the Cup only.

 

[Stepson]

Well, no matter who answers it. - You are both Lutherans.
(see also my post above.)

Yes, that’s what you call justice! Why did you have to terrorize your teachers?!

If I had only half of the answers as to why I did things when I was young?

I wanted to learn more about my “Church Fathers” (as, without Luther, Calvin and Zwingli there wouldn’t be any Baptists! )

Please correct me if I am incorrect but it was my understanding that Luther was against the Anabaptist and even persecuted them. Also Luther and Calvin could not see eye to eye on Communion because Calvin thought the way Catholics and Lutherans celebrate it was nothing short of cannibalism. Reminds me of what my sociology professor would alway say,“Don’t blame Christ for Christianity!”

 

[fred_conty]

. When celebrating the Eucharist, only the Body was served to the congregation. I noticed the Priests consumed the Blood but did not offer it to the congregation. What is the reason for this?

Hi,
Church law requires the celebrant to consecrate and receive both the Body and Blood.

The laity may partake of either or both, both being the ideal if they both are presented.

It is the pastor’s responsiblity to offer both if possible.

However when receiving only the Body, the Blood is also received automatically.

There is a story told of a man in need of money. He went to his friends for it but they
refused. He then went to his enemy, which the enemy granted under one condition.
That condition was that he could have a pound of his flesh if the money was not returned
on time. The due day came and the money was not returned. The man then said, “I wnat a pound of your flesh here and now.” The other man said, “you may have a pound of my flesh, but you may not have one ounce of my blood.”

 

[Esdra]

If I had only half of the answers as to why I did things when I was young?

Please correct me if I am incorrect but it was my understanding that Luther was against the Anabaptist and even persecuted them. Also Luther and Calvin could not see eye to eye on Communion because Calvin thought the way Catholics and Lutherans celebrate it was nothing short of cannibalism. Reminds me of what my sociology professor would alway say,“Don’t blame Christ for Christianity!”

You are historically completely correct! The Anabaptist were severely persecuted by both, the Catholics, as well as the Lutherans and the Reformed.
Nevertheless, they are our “Church Fathers”.
Concerning the Lutherans and Reformed: In Germany and Austria mst of them do have full altar and pulpit communion.
see above.

in Christ,