Question about the Great Amen

[ALLGIRLS]

Hi. I did a forum search, but could only find a thread about how to pronounce Amen in the Great Amen, so sorry if this has already been covered.

We just got a new pastor, and it appears that he has eliminated the singing of the Great Amen. A few weeks ago, we had a visiting missionary priest from Bangledesh who didn’t speak English very well, and he didn’t sing it, and it was very ackward, but I thought maybe the guest priest had just made a mistake. However, yesterday (the 1st Sunday I’ve been to Mass that the new Pastor has been the celebrant-we’ve either been out of town or, like I mentioned, we had the visiting priest), it was the same thing. It’s not just that the choir didn’t play music with it, it wasn’t sung at all, just a very low spoken, “amen” after the doxology (which he also didn’t sing or chant, which I think most priests do?). It was really weird, and Fr. actually started praying the Our Father before we even stood up, as the (sung) Great Amen is I guess everyone’s “cue” to stand back up.

So, what I’d like to know it (long story short!): is this allowed, or is it (yet another) liturgical abuse? (I’m kind of irritated because he hasn’t corrected the ongoing liturgical abuse left over from our former pastor like I was hoping for, so I really hope he isn’t adding another! Why can’t the priests just do what the rubrics call for? And he’s a Monsignor and was the Rector of the seminary b/f coming to us. You’d think our parish would now be completely orthodox!).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[choy]

i didn’t find anything in the GIRM that says the Great Amen should be sung

 

[LilyM]

i didn’t find anything in the GIRM that says the Great Amen should be sung

Certainly it’s not required to be sung by any means. In my experience, there’s great variability in whether things like the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Great Amen or Our Father are sung or recited. Nothing anywhere requires that these parts of the Mass be sung.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Ok, thanks. That’s good that it’s not an abuse, but still really weird. I can understand it at a daily Mass, or one with no choir/music, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense since we ARE still singing the Gloria (we only do the Kyrie during Lent, the rest of the time it’s usually just “(prayer) Lord have mercy (prayer) Christ have mercy (prayer) Lord have mercy” and on rare occasions (if we have no deacon, and even then not most of the time) the Confitieor), Holy, Holy, Holy and Lamb of God. He also didn’t say “AH-men”, but just “Eh-men”, very, I don’t know, informal? Not at all “Great”, kwim? Like I said, I’ve never experienced that before. Even in Masses with no music, where the Gloria and Holy and Lamb of God are just spoken, the priest and congregation has always at least chanted “AHHH-MEN” after the Consecration. I guess I’ll get used to it.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Catholicben]

Um … … there’s nothing wrong with the great amen being sung.

 

[choy]

Certainly it’s not required to be sung by any means. In my experience, there’s great variability in whether things like the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Great Amen or Our Father are sung or recited. Nothing anywhere requires that these parts of the Mass be sung.

of course
some priests like to sing more than others. our previous pastor likes to sing everything, even if there’s no choir he’ll sing everything himself. even during offertory he’ll sing a hymn before standing again to receive the gifts.
i guess some priests may be too shy or accept that they aren’t as gifted in singing, and would avoid singing
it would also be up to them to say which parts are sung or not. as parish pastors, they have the freedom to make these decisions where the Church would allow them to

 

[LilyM]

Ok, thanks. That’s good that it’s not an abuse, but still really weird. I can understand it at a daily Mass, or one with no choir/music, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense since we ARE still singing the Gloria (we only do the Kyrie during Lent, the rest of the time it’s usually just “(prayer) Lord have mercy (prayer) Christ have mercy (prayer) Lord have mercy” and on rare occasions (if we have no deacon, and even then not most of the time) the Confitieor), Holy, Holy, Holy and Lamb of God. He also didn’t say “AH-men”, but just “Eh-men”, very, I don’t know, informal? Not at all “Great”, kwim? Like I said, I’ve never experienced that before. Even in Masses with no music, where the Gloria and Holy and Lamb of God are just spoken, the priest and congregation has always at least chanted “AHHH-MEN” after the Consecration. I guess I’ll get used to it.

In Christ,

Ellen

Well, the Kyrie IS the prayer ‘Lord have mercy’, only sung and (perhaps) in Greek. They’re the same thing. So sometimes, as your own experience shows, it’s sung, sometimes it isn’t. No-one is confused by that.

In my own experience the Our Father is sometimes chanted, sometimes not. Same with the Lamb of God, same with the Gloria. For that matter sometimes the priest chants ‘The Lord be with you’ and/or ‘through Him, with Him, in Him’, not to mention other prayers, and sometimes not.

No biggie either way, and no particular rhyme or reason, presumably it’s up to the discretion of the priest and/or the organist and cantor. I can imagine sometimes an organist might not play things that are complicated or that they aren’t familiar with.

For that matter, sometimes members of the congregation simply say the ‘Amen’ without waiting for the organ, and a polite organist might decide not to interrupt and start playing if that’s the case.

And no, I actually don’t know what you mean. An ‘Amen’ is an ‘Amen’. I’ve never heard a priest say it casually. Really, in the scheme of things, there’s no particular reason to consider that ‘Amen’ greater than any other, apart perhaps from the fact that it marks the conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Um … … there’s nothing wrong with the great amen being sung.

Not in the slightest, but no reason to be discombobulated if it isn’t sung, either.

 

[MarkThompson]

The funny thing is, there’s really no such thing as a “great amen.” How it ever got that title, and blown into such proportions, I really don’t know. Personally, I consider myself a member of the Ditch the “Great Amen” Movement.

 

[choy]

And no, I actually don’t know what you mean. An ‘Amen’ is an ‘Amen’. I’ve never heard a priest say it casually. Really, in the scheme of things, there’s no particular reason to consider that ‘Amen’ greater than any other, apart perhaps from the fact that it marks the conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer.

I was in a Chaldean Rite Mass yesterday and they pronounce it, “a-min”
and to me, it sounds exactly like the Filipino word for “us”

 

[ALLGIRLS]

The funny thing is, there’s really no such thing as a “great amen.” How it ever got that title, and blown into such proportions, I really don’t know. Personally, I consider myself a member of the Ditch the “Great Amen” Movement.

I did not know that. I always thought it (“it” being the Amen at the conclusion of the Eucharistic prayer) was called “The Great Amen”, perhaps to “show off” the importance of the Consecration that just occurred. Maybe it’s my age. I’m 39, so I have no recollection of Mass earlier than about 1976.

So, I guess it makes sense that Lily didn’t know what I meant about it sounding “informal”, if it’s not really supposed to be a “Great” Amen, but just a regular “Amen” like any other. Sometimes the choir would go all out (although, after this discussion, I’m thinking this is probably actually an abuse) and sing "AHH AH AH AH MEN, Al-le-lu-lu-u-ia, for-e-ver, and e-e-ver, for-e-ver, Allelu-u-ai, for-ever, and ever AHH-MEN!). Yeah, I always thought that was a little much, but have ALWAYS heard it at least chanted.

No harm no foul. At least I know he’s apparently calling the shots for the Liturgy, and not letting the music coordinator run all over him, like our former pastor did.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[choy]

Ok, thanks. That’s good that it’s not an abuse, but still really weird. I can understand it at a daily Mass, or one with no choir/music, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense since we ARE still singing the Gloria (we only do the Kyrie during Lent, the rest of the time it’s usually just “(prayer) Lord have mercy (prayer) Christ have mercy (prayer) Lord have mercy” and on rare occasions (if we have no deacon, and even then not most of the time) the Confitieor), Holy, Holy, Holy and Lamb of God. He also didn’t say “AH-men”, but just “Eh-men”, very, I don’t know, informal? Not at all “Great”, kwim? Like I said, I’ve never experienced that before. Even in Masses with no music, where the Gloria and Holy and Lamb of God are just spoken, the priest and congregation has always at least chanted “AHHH-MEN” after the Consecration. I guess I’ll get used to it.

In Christ,

Ellen

this is what the RS says:

[54.] The people, however, are always involved actively and never merely passively: for they “silently join themselves with the Priest in faith, as well as in their interventions during the course of the Eucharistic Prayer as prescribed, namely in the responses in the Preface dialogue, the Sanctus, the acclamation after the consecration and the “Amen” after the final doxology, and in other acclamations approved by the Conference of Bishops with the recognitio of the Holy See”.

so you can say your priest actually follows the letter of the law quite faithfully since nowhere in there does it say that the “Amen” should be said more than once nor does it says it is to be sung

of course, one would argue that it doesn’t say Amen can be expressed in a different way. but i’m just saying, the letter of the law just says and “Amen” after the final doxology. therefore thats all that is needed.

 

[LilyM]

I did not know that. I always thought it (“it” being the Amen at the conclusion of the Eucharistic prayer) was called “The Great Amen”, perhaps to “show off” the importance of the Consecration that just occurred. Maybe it’s my age. I’m 39, so I have no recollection of Mass earlier than about 1976.

So, I guess it makes sense that Lily didn’t know what I meant about it sounding “informal”, if it’s not really supposed to be a “Great” Amen, but just a regular “Amen” like any other. Sometimes the choir would go all out (although, after this discussion, I’m thinking this is probably actually an abuse) and sing "AHH AH AH AH MEN, Al-le-lu-lu-u-ia, for-e-ver, and e-e-ver, for-e-ver, Allelu-u-ai, for-ever, and ever AHH-MEN!). Yeah, I always thought that was a little much, but have ALWAYS heard it at least chanted.

The repetition of ‘Amen’ isn’t an abuse - most musical settings repeat the words of the text and have multiple Amens, it’s permitted to do so.

The addition of text that isn’t prescribed - the ‘Alleluias’ and ‘forever and evers’ - is, however, an abuse. Which might be a reason why it was done away with. Certainly I haven’t hear that version of the Great Amen for years.

Yes, it’s called ‘the great Amen’ by musicians, to distinguish the part of the Mass where it occurs, but the name has no theological or liturgical significance.

 

[choy]

The addition of text that isn’t prescribed - the ‘Alleluias’ and ‘forever and evers’ - is, however, an abuse. Which might be a reason why it was done away with. Certainly I haven’t hear that version of the Great Amen for years.

we still use it in our parish

 

[LilyM]

we still use it in our parish

I meant done away with by the OP’s new priest.

I’m sure it’s still used in plenty of places, though, as I’ve said, not the parishes I tend to go to.

 

[benedictgal]

Musicam Sacram lists a hiearchy of what should be sung at the Mass:

1. The following belong to the first degree:

(a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

(b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.

(c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord’s Prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

The final doxology of the Canon includes the Great Amen. Thus, even though the GIRM may not indicate whether or not it is to be sung, Musicam Sacram, which is an authoritative document of the Church, does rank it among the first degree of what should be sung at Mass.

When my parochial vicar celebrates daily Mass, we sing the Alleluia/Lenten acclamation, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation and the Great Amen.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Musicam Sacram lists a hiearchy of what should be sung at the Mass:

The final doxology of the Canon includes the Great Amen. Thus, even though the GIRM may not indicate whether or not it is to be sung, Musicam Sacram, which is an authoritative document of the Church, does rank it among the first degree of what should be sung at Mass.

It also lists the beginning and end of Mass as among the"first degree" and yet those are rarely sung, Also rarely sung are the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue. So let’s not just pick on the great Amen. These are things that the Church prefers to be sung but no one is going to get bent out of shape if they’re not. Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

When my parochial vicar celebrates daily Mass, we sing the Alleluia/Lenten acclamation, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation and the Great Amen.

Once again, very rare.

 

[benedictgal]

It also lists the beginning and end of Mass as among the"first degree" and yet those are rarely sung, Also rarely sung are the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue. So let’s not just pick on the great Amen. These are things that the Church prefers to be sung but no one is going to get bent out of shape if they’re not. Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

Once again, very rare.

Perhaps it may be rare for you, but, our parochial vicar chants the prefaces with their dialogues (on Sundays and Solemnities-occurring during the week). He also has us reading the entrance and communion antiphons. A couple of other priests do this down here as well. In fact, our previous diocesan director of worship would also do this at daily Mass.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Perhaps it may be rare for you, but, our parochial vicar chants the prefaces with their dialogues (on Sundays and Solemnities-occurring during the week).
Its not merely rare “for me” but its rare throughout the US. I have rarely been at or even heard of a Mass in the US where the entrance rites were chanted along with the preface, and post communion rites. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen from time to time, but its rare.
I also don’t ever recall seeing it in Ireland or England when I’ve been there on occasion.

He also has us reading the entrance and communion antiphons. A couple of other priests do this down here as well. In fact, our previous diocesan director of worship would also do this at daily Mass.

 

[corsair]

Personally, I can’t stand the critter thats been named the “Great Amen”. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it known as the “Danish Amen” back in the 70’s?

Whenever its sung I feel like I’m in Protestant revival tent.

 

[Phemie]

Personally, I can’t stand the critter thats been named the “Great Amen”. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it known as the “Danish Amen” back in the 70’s?

Whenever its sung I feel like I’m in Protestant revival tent.

Those who use the term “Great Amen” don’t use it for a specific setting of the Amen.

Canada’s Catholic Book of Worship III says “the priest sings the following doxology and all respond by singing the great Amen” and all settings of the Amen in it are titled “Great Amen”.