Question about the Great Amen

[Phemie]

benedictgal;6884841:

Perhaps it may be rare for you, but, our parochial vicar chants the prefaces with their dialogues (on Sundays and Solemnities-occurring during the week).
Its not merely rare “for me” but its rare throughout the US. I have rarely been at or even heard of a Mass in the US where the entrance rites were chanted along with the preface, and post communion rites. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen from time to time, but its rare.
I also don’t ever recall seeing it in Ireland or England when I’ve been there on occasion.

I wasn’t talking about the reading of entrance and communion antiphons, that’s actually quite common. Now if you sang them, that would be rare.
I was specifically referencing everything that the documents stated the Church prefers to be sung/chanted.

We had a young Polish priest with us for a few months and at Sunday Masses he always chanted the entrance rites, Gospel acclamations, and post communion rites. It was a surprise at first and people didn’t quite know how to respond but it soon became ‘normal’ and I really missed it when he left.

 

[MtGargano]

The repetition of ‘Amen’ isn’t an abuse - most musical settings repeat the words of the text and have multiple Amens, it’s permitted to do so.

The addition of text that isn’t prescribed - the ‘Alleluias’ and ‘forever and evers’ - is, however, an abuse. Which might be a reason why it was done away with. Certainly I haven’t hear that version of the Great Amen for years.

Yes, it’s called ‘the great Amen’ by musicians, to distinguish the part of the Mass where it occurs, but the name has no theological or liturgical significance.

no disrespect intended, but…St. Augustine tells us that the Christians of Hippo in the fourth century said this “Amen” so loudly that the noise they made shook all the pagan temples to their foundations!

God Bless

 

[CB_Catholic]

no disrespect intended, but…St. Augustine tells us that the Christians of Hippo in the fourth century said this “Amen” so loudly that the noise they made shook all the pagan temples to their foundations!

God Bless

Well I’m kinda glad we don’t say it that loudly, because “the great pagan temple” around here is the shopping Mall which is right near my church, and I’m kinda fond of that Mall.

 

[benedictgal]

Those who use the term “Great Amen” don’t use it for a specific setting of the Amen.

Canada’s Catholic Book of Worship III says “the priest sings the following doxology and all respond by singing the great Amen” and all settings of the Amen in it are titled “Great Amen”.

I don’t know if you’ve heard the Amen setting used for the Papal Masses. It is a triple Amen, but, beautifully harmonized and it works great with or without the organ. In fact, I used it when I planned the White Mass for Healthcare professionals and everyone loved it. It was majestic, grand and simple. It was great to use the same setting used for Pope Benedict’s installation Mass!

 

[LilyM]

no disrespect intended, but…St. Augustine tells us that the Christians of Hippo in the fourth century said this “Amen” so loudly that the noise they made shook all the pagan temples to their foundations!

God Bless

Hmmm - Augustine was well-trained in all the skills of oratory and rhetoric (if I remember rightly he used to instruct in them at the university in Carthage, and was so brilliant he then was given THE pre-eminent teaching position in Rome itself.)

There’s a well-known rhetorical device called ‘hyperbole’, or ‘exaggeration for effect’, that I’m sure he was not only throughly familiar with but skilfully used himself on occasions such as the above quote.

 

[patrick457]

I was in a Chaldean Rite Mass yesterday and they pronounce it, “a-min”

Which is the way they pronounce it in (Byzantine) Greek, Slavonic, and in Aramaic.

and to me, it sounds exactly like the Filipino word for “us”

This resemblance was actually the subject of a…not-too-very-reverent joke I’ve once heard. I won’t repeat it here, but suffice to say that it involves a bell-ringer who could no longer resist the call of nature while up the bell tower, a rather unfortunate priest, and the congregation.

 

[patrick457]

The funny thing is, there’s really no such thing as a “great amen.” How it ever got that title, and blown into such proportions, I really don’t know. Personally, I consider myself a member of the Ditch the “Great Amen” Movement.

Ya know, I’m really in the dark as to where the ‘Great Amen’ came from anyways as well. The ‘Amen’ at the Per Ipso (“Through Him…”) was really just a regular ‘Amen’ before it got beefed up. So, whence come this?

 

[benedictgal]

Ya know, I’m really in the dark as to where the ‘Great Amen’ came from anyways as well. The ‘Amen’ at the Per Ipso (“Through Him…”) was really just a regular ‘Amen’ before it got beefed up. So, whence come this?

I was online chatting with a friend of mine (a priest) and he explained that this particular Amen is the most significant because it comes at the moment that the celebrant is lifting up the Body and Blood of Christ and offering these to the Father. Our “Amen” is our union in this supreme offering. That is why, even during Daily Mass, he has the faithful sing it. He chants the “per ipso”.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Ok, now I’m really confused. Is it supposed to be sung, or not? Someone said it was part of the doxology, and should be sung, but did I mention that our new Pastor doesn’t sing (or chant) the doxology, either?

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[choy]

Ok, now I’m really confused. Is it supposed to be sung, or not? Someone said it was part of the doxology, and should be sung, but did I mention that our new Pastor doesn’t sing (or chant) the doxology, either?

In Christ,

Ellen

“supposed to” alludes that its the preferred way

i would simply say, is it mandatory for it to be sung? no. can it be sung? yes

 

[magnus_32]

According to Inaestimabile Donum, “Instruction Concerning Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery”, by the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship as approved and promulgated by Pope John Paul II:

1. It is reserved to the priest, by virtue of his ordination, to proclaim the Eucharist Prayer, which of its nature is the high point of the whole celebration. It is therefore an abuse to have some parts of the Eucharist Prayer said by the deacon, by a lower minister, or by the faithful.(16) On the other hand the assembly does not remain passive and inert; it unites itself to the priest in faith and silence and shows its concurrence by the various interventions provided for in the course of the Eucharist Prayer: the responses to the Preface dialogue, the Sanctus, the acclamation after the Consecration, and the final Amen after the Per Ipsum. The Per Ipsum itself is reserved to the priest. This Amen especially should be emphasized by being sung, since it is the most important in the whole Mass.

 

[laszlo]

This Amen especially should be emphasized by being sung, since it is the most important in the whole Mass.

Outside of the yelling in the original post I second it. The most important message of the Mass is the doxology (Per ipsum = Through Him) and the responding acceptance (Amen). And this moment the sung repeated Amen Alleluia is not part of the liturgy, but there is an organic development that this is the peek:

Christ is the center of the whole world, not We the people, not the Truth/dogmas but the Living Christ who is among us through the Church

 

[TrueLight]

I am baffled by the whole thread.

I had no idea there was a ‘Great Amen’ or that ‘Amen’ took on such significance in the Catholic Church.

 

[patrick457]

I am baffled by the whole thread.

I had no idea there was a ‘Great Amen’ or that ‘Amen’ took on such significance in the Catholic Church.

As I’ve said a few posts ago, the Amen at the end of the Canon/Eucharistic Prayer only got beefed up upon the introduction of the new Order of the Mass in 1970. It’s not something official though as far as I know: nothing in the rubrics or the GIRM or even tradition suggests or requires that the Amen at the end of the doxology should be, like, given some special significance or be repeated a number of times.

In the older form of the Roman Mass (aka Tridentine Mass, Extraordinary Form, etc.), the Amen at the end of the doxology was just plain ol’ Amen, but then again, the whole Canon was recited inaudibly by the priest save for a couple of phrases at the time, so it wasn’t the congregation that answered him - who can’t hear Father anyway - but the assisting servers.

In fact, as has been mentioned before, there are folks who advocate ditching the ‘Great’ Amen, to which I kind of also sympathize. I just feel that giving extreme emphasis on the Amen at the end of the doxology as most modern Mass settings do brings an imbalance to the Liturgy.

 

[laszlo]

As I’ve said a few posts ago, the Amen at the end of the Canon/Eucharistic Prayer only got beefed up upon the introduction of the new Order of the Mass in 1970. It’s not something official though as far as I know: nothing in the rubrics or the GIRM or even tradition suggests or requires that the Amen at the end of the doxology should be, like, given some special significance or be repeated a number of times.

Traditionally the doxology (Through Him ) was recited in inaudible voice except for the closing ‘Per omnia saecula saecolurum’, what was sung by the priest. According to the new rubrics, and it started in 1964, the full doxology was sung or recited in audible voice.

48 f. The doxology at the end of the canon, from Per ipsum through Per omnia saecula saeculorum. R. Amen, is to be sung or recited aloud. Throughout the whole doxology the celebrant slightly elevates the chalice with the host, omitting the signs of the cross, and genuflects at the end after the Amen response by the people.

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html

 

[GloriousOrder]

I am baffled by the whole thread.

I had no idea there was a ‘Great Amen’ or that ‘Amen’ took on such significance in the Catholic Church.

Actually, “amen” is the one universal word the whole Church speaks at the end of Time, according to the final proclamation of the New Testament. Are the four living creatures who say “amen” in the Apocalypse not the very pillars of the Church, the evangelists? They speak for us, showing us how to preach and praise God perfectly, as guided by the Holy Spirit.

5:13-14: “And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard all saying: ‘to Him that sitteth on the throne and to the Lamb: benediction and honour and glory and power, forever and ever’, and the four living creatures said: ‘amen’.”

I’d say that “amen” is the most important word in the world, after “Jesus”. “God saves”, it is true, but “Amen” not only communicates truth - it is the name Christ gave to Himself in the same revelation to St. John.

3:14 says: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:”

This word is great and eternal and wonderful. It has pure meaning. When Zadok and Nathan anointed Solomon King of Israel, the whole army of Israel said “Amen. Alleluia”!

I think the Great Amen should be sung with great emotion, but if the Low Mass can do without any singing at all, it isn’t be all that necessary.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

LOL, I’d forgotten all about this thread!

Actually, I don’t know if it was a fluke, or if he was just warming up to us, or what, but Msgr. now chants the doxology and the choir & whole congregation sing the Great Amen again. Plus, he got rid of the liturgical dancers and started pouring the wine into the chalices before the consecration. LOVE HIM!

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[patrick457]

Traditionally the doxology (Through Him ) was recited in inaudible voice except for the closing ‘Per omnia saecula saecolurum’, what was sung by the priest. According to the new rubrics, and it started in 1964, the full doxology was sung or recited in audible voice.

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html

Thanks, I stand corrected.

But my humble opinion on the matter still stands: the doxology’s Amen is way too overrated and overblown nowadays. Sure, one could make the case like how because it marks the end of the Canon (or Eucharistic Prayer, if one prefers that terminology) it has some importance or whatnot, but the very elaborate and grandiose settings modern composers had set for it has the downside of - as I’ve said - bringing an imbalance to the Liturgy. Instead of something like “This is my Body/Blood” being the center and summit, you’d have the feeling that the ‘great’ Amen at the end is somehow more important than even the Words of Institution. Heck, I’ve heard a few folks who mistakenly teach that the host and wine only becomes the Body and Blood of Christ at that point!

Sure, while the ancients never really agreed on at what exact point transubstantiation takes place (though there was a concensus that it happened within the Anaphora/Canon), I’ve never seen anything to the effect that it happens at the Amen immediately before the Our Father in older sources.

That’s not to say that the Amen is not important. If one wants to attach some significance to the doxology’s Amen, then that’s all well and good. I just don’t see the need for it to be repeated over and over and over until the choir and congregation run out of breath or tacked on with words like “forever and ever” or “Alleluia.” (Not that these words are bad in and of themselves)

 

[Phemie]

Heck, I’ve heard a few folks who mistakenly teach that the host and wine only becomes the Body and Blood of Christ at that point!

In a course on the Mass the instructor, a priest professor of theology, made that comment “It is the entire Eucharistic Prayer which consecrates, so there should be no different posture for any portion of it.” When challenged and asked what the Church taught, he replied, “You’re asking the wrong question” and he never replied to the question.

 

[TrueLight]

As I’ve said a few posts ago, the Amen at the end of the Canon/Eucharistic Prayer only got beefed up upon the introduction of the new Order of the Mass in 1970. It’s not something official though as far as I know: nothing in the rubrics or the GIRM or even tradition suggests or requires that the Amen at the end of the doxology should be, like, given some special significance or be repeated a number of times.

In the older form of the Roman Mass (aka Tridentine Mass, Extraordinary Form, etc.), the Amen at the end of the doxology was just plain ol’ Amen, but then again, the whole Canon was recited inaudibly by the priest save for a couple of phrases at the time, so it wasn’t the congregation that answered him - who can’t hear Father anyway - but the assisting servers.

In fact, as has been mentioned before, there are folks who advocate ditching the ‘Great’ Amen, to which I kind of also sympathize. I just feel that giving extreme emphasis on the Amen at the end of the doxology as most modern Mass settings do brings an imbalance to the Liturgy.

Thanks for reposting. I hadn’t read the whole thread.