Question about the Great Schism

[Mickey]

Oops. Our agreement did not last long. The Pope had nothing to do with Russia. Russia was “consecrated” in the blood of Her Holy Martyrs under the communist yoke–those who stayed true to the Holy Orthodox faith.

 

[Mickey]

The pope is just the messenger

I thought you call him the “supreme pontiff”. Is there a new title?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I thought you call him the “supreme pontiff”. Is there a new title?

Well Jesus named him “Rock” with a commission to feed, tend and teach His flock. Recieving a divine commission from heaven to allow the gentiles into the Church from the first century, and consecrate a country (Russia) that rejects him, so that providence takes His course in redemption, does not change the Popes title, but is an “unchanged” commission for the pope not a change of office title.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Oops. Our agreement did not last long. The Pope had nothing to do with Russia. Russia was “consecrated” in the blood of Her Holy Martyrs under the communist yoke–those who stayed true to the Holy Orthodox faith.

Amen, the Immaculate heart of Mary foresaw this sacrifice, what better sacrifice to add to these martyrs the divine dimension of the Immaculate heart of Mary, which will water these seeds and bring about the “blessed fruit of her (your) womb” Jesus.

Why would you want to leave the blood of martyrs calling out all alone? The Immaculate heart of Mary answers and intercedes on their behalf and brings them to fruition. It is here where the divine and humanity become one through the Blessed Virgin Holy Mother of God, this is the mystery of the Incarnation in action to prove to communism that God does act in and through our humanity.

 

[Mickey]

Well Jesus named him “Rock”

Most Fathers of the Church refer to St Peter’s confession as Rock. Many others say that the Rock is Christ. But you already know this–it has been covered here infinitely.

with a commission to feed, tend and teach His flock.

The triple affirmation was to restore St Peter’s apostleship for the triple denial. There is also much meaning in the usage of the Greek word “love” in this passage.

and consecrate a country (Russia) that rejects him,

Really? The people of Russia were martyred because they rejected Christ? How sad that you say such things.

 

[Mickey]

Why would you want to leave the blood of martyrs calling out all alone?

They died for Jesus Christ.

Your own Church does not even compel you to believe in the Fatima “teachings” which you keep preaching here. Russia was Orthodox at the time of this supposed Roman Catholic “consecration”. Russia had already been Christian for over one thousand years, and has a great devotion to the most holy Theotokos.

So you can stop with your odd attempts at proselytism.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;7967757]Most Fathers of the Church refer to St Peter’s confession as Rock. Many others say that the Rock is Christ. But you already know this–it has been covered here infinitely.

This all well and fine, but what did Jesus say? That is what matters to me;
Matthew 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Jesus did not give His keys to a faith? Jesus gave them to Peter the person to possess them.

The triple affirmation was to restore St Peter’s apostleship for the triple denial. There is also much meaning in the usage of the Greek word “love” in this passage.

Sure I agree much more can be deduced from Peter’s confession before Jesus ascended into heaven. The fact of the commission from Jesus to Peter does not change; Let the gospel speak here;

John 21:15
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, **Jesus said to Simon Peter, **“Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” **16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Tend my sheep.” **17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, **"Feed my sheep. **

Really? The people of Russia were martyred because they rejected Christ? How sad that you say such things.:

The people of Russia and the Russian “communistic” government are distinct in belief’s. I don’t think the people of Russia were martyred? Those believers of Christ who rejected their Russian governments anti-Christ sentiments were martyred not the Russian people. Content and clarity should be noted here, not false assumptions and twisting of comments.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

They died for Jesus Christ.

Your own Church does not even compel you to believe in the Fatima “teachings” which you keep preaching here. Russia was Orthodox at the time of this supposed Roman Catholic “consecration”. Russia had already been Christian for over one thousand years, and has a great devotion to the most holy Theotokos.

So you can stop with your odd attempts at proselytism.

Am I not free and called to give witness of my faith as everyone else? I don’t say these things to proselytize anyone here.

I don’t question ROC’s position of the blessed Virgin Mary Holy Mother of God here. What I hope to clarify here, is that the Russian government removed God from the Russian people and the practice of Catholicism from the ROC and CC from within her borders.

What I relate to you here deals with the evil powers and principalities we battle against, not the flesh, or members of your ROC.

Jesus sums it better than I can here;

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?
11
**Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony.
12
If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? **

 

[Mickey]

Matthew 16:17 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Yes. St Peter’s confession is Rock. Christ is the Rock, the foundation, the Head, of the Church.

1 Cor 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

19 **I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

We also know that the keys (as we see in your Scriptural quote) are connected to binding and loosing. The other apostles received this also:

Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matt 18:18)

John 21 When they had finished breakfast, **Jesus said to Simon Peter, **“Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” **16

He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Tend my sheep.” **17

He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, **"Feed my sheep. **

How I love that passage!

The triple affirmation for a triple denial. As we know, all the apostles were commissioned to preach the Gospel unto the ends of the earth.

I don’t think the people of Russia were martyred?

Oh shame on you.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;7967901]Yes. St Peter’s confession is Rock. Christ is the Rock, the foundation, the Head, of the Church

.

Peace be with you Mickey, From your post how can one relate these to the OP? Does the schism go back to authority? and what men interpret to what Jesus said?

No Catholic I know of refutes Christ is the Rock, the foundation, the head of the Church. What the text reveals here is the “renaming of Simon” to Peter = Cephas= Rock. St. Paul refers to Peter as “Rock” =Cephas. Do you reject Simon bar Jona’s new name Jesus gave to him Peter? Do you reject St. Paul calling Peter, Cephas = Rock?

It is Catholics who follow St. Paul and Jesus teachings here, not men.

 

[Mickey]

What I relate to you here deals with the evil powers and principalities we battle against, not the flesh, or members of your ROC.

As you condemn the terror and unholy communism that tried to remove Christ from the people of Russia, you have insulted the holy martyrs of the Holy Orthodox faith who shed their blood for Christ and His holy Church. The gates of hell did not prevail.

Jesus sums it better than I can here;

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?
11
**Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. **
**12 **
**If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? **

He also said:

Blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you make clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness.
Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful, but within are full of dead men’s bones, and of all filthiness. So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just; but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 

[Mickey]

Peace be with you Mickey, From your post how can one relate these to the OP?

Papal supremacy is probably the main issue regarding the continuing schism. But that is for another thread—there have been many threads on this.

No Catholic I know of refutes Christ is the Rock, the foundation, the head of the Church.

Great.

Do you reject Simon bar Jona’s new name Jesus gave to him Peter?

Of course not. But I reject the belief that St Peter is somehow a type of a supreme pontiff.

It is Catholics who follow St. Paul and Jesus teachings here, not men.

So Catholics are not men?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;7967952]As you condemn the terror and unholy communism that tried to remove Christ from the people of Russia, you have insulted the holy martyrs of the Holy Orthodox faith who shed their blood for Christ and His holy Church. The gates of hell did not prevail.

Of course they did not prevail nor will they prevail, so long as the divine intervention (Immaculate heart of Mary) is being made. The point to all this is that the martyrs can not do it alone, from their blood divine intervention is presented. This disproves communism, when the finger of God touches our humanity.

I have no clue as to why you “think” I insulted any Martyrs of Catholicism? In fact I think your assumption is to far fetch for me to reach any rebuttle, because it is not there to rebutt.

Peace be with you

 

[Mickey]

Of course they did not prevail nor will they prevail, so long as the divine intervention (Immaculate heart of Mary) is being made.

There is no doubt that the holy Russian Orthodox martyrs prayed for the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos. But this odd Fatima explanation of consecration is not part of the equation.

The point to all this is that the martyrs can not do it alone,

Absolutely not! It takes a special grace from Christ to accept martyrdom.

This disproves communism

Communism is an ungodly travesty and the Holy Orthodox new martyrs of Russia prove that the Orthodox Church will always prevail.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;7967979]Papal supremacy is probably the main issue regarding the continuing schism. But that is for another thread—there have been many threads on this.

The Op is "Question about the Great Schism?

Of course not. But I reject the belief that St Peter is somehow a type of a supreme pontiff

.

Do you reject what you have been mislead to believe about a “superior human being (supreme pontiff) of a pope”, and the misunderstanding of the the Pope possessing the keys of the Kingdom of heaven given to him “Singularly” by Jesus himself, or what the CC reveals from scripture as practiced these 2000 years from sacred Tradition?

So Catholics are not men?

I don’t object to your attempt at humor here, following Jesus does not deny ones humanity. I wonder if we are on the same page here at times?

 

[Mickey]

Do you reject what you have been mislead to believe…

LOL! No…I reject what you have been misled to believe.

I wonder if we are on the same page here at times?

Ditto.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;7968022]Absolutely not! It takes a special grace from Christ to accept martyrdom

.

This is placing to much emphasis on man vs. communism, without the revelation that God dwells with the human race.

Communism is an ungodly travesty and the Holy Orthodox new martyrs of Russia prove that the Orthodox Church will always prevail.

They can never prevail without divine intervention. This is the crux and the revelation being revealed to communism which rejects God’s intervention with man.

You imply that these martyrs do it without mentioning God’s intervention, thus your implications “border” heresy and agrees with communism that man does it alone?

 

[Mickey]

.You imply that these martyrs do it without mentioning God’s intervention

Oh please…what on earth are you talking about. :whacky:

 

[Bluegoat]

I agree with your post here; It should be noted what the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” is revealed from the gospels. The gospels clearly reveal the immaculate heart of Mary, as she would ponder and keep all these gospel events of Jesus in her heart including the passion of Jesus Christ when the sword pierced her heart as Simeon prophecised.

The Immaculate heart of Mary, mirrors the suffering which the Russian people will have to endure and did endure from communism, the Immaculate heart of Mary consecrated to Russia gives hope when there was no hope. The Immaculate heart of Mary suffers as Russia suffered, so as to give birth to Christ to a communistic Russia who removed God from her people.

The pope is just the messenger, don’t strike the messenger, Mary’s Immculate heart will heal Russia back to Christ.

If both CC and ROC can reflect on the Immaculate heart of Mary, no hurt, sorrow, friction, schism can ever compare or live up to her Immaculate heart, these will all fall away. If only we can say “Yes” to God as the blessed Virgin Mary does.

Peace be with you

I think the Orthodox think that Immaculate Heart and Sacred Heart stuff is pretty much way out there, and would not spend time contemplating them, no matter what.

 

[Wesley7]

ummm . . . Cathodoxy?