Question about the Great Schism

[Harpazo]

You have to consider Vladimir Putnim controls Russia. really what is he considered? Mafia of Russia? Or authoritarian?

To me they are demonic. (thats how I seee them). Call it what you will. They still have communist ties with other communist countries and their current government has communist leanings and are taking them backwards in their economy. Kind of like us right now

To begin with Communism is an ideal which the USSR attempted to bring about through socialism. Communism has never existed in any sustainable way. If it did exist, then we would all be living in Utopia.

Nonetheless Russia is not trying to embrace a society based on Biblical teaching. And the same could be said for the USA today though not to the degree of Russia.

LOL, when did you become an expert on Russia and what does it have to do with Orthodoxy?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Hail_Linus]

Well there’s a relelation involved, but no. The school of Lenin been teaching total world domination for decades. The war between communism and capitalism is inevitable according to them.

You are so right. I am always amaze when people laugh at the domino theory. It was actually Lenin’s plan to destroy the U.S. by spreading communism and making capitalism collapse.

Add the present situation of Iran/Russia and the problem with Israel? Islam though a problem in itself, really is the puppet in this. And thats not say that at some level demonic forces exist there. But Russia is just waiting to get strong enough, look how they affected Red China?

I agree with what you are saying here but I think our biggest threat are the communists in the U.S…

The kids are coming out of school totally brain washed. It reminds me of the 1984 Party Slogan, “Whoever controls the past controls the future and whoever controls the present controls the past.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

World dominance with capitalism? No, not necessarily. I don’t think there will be world dominance of anything. Capitalism is alive and well in many parts, light socialism in places like Europe and Canada, etc., dictatorships like in Venezuela, Libya, etc, theocracies like Iran, some communist hold-outs like Laos, N.Korea, Cuba, and I still maintain the biggest threat to instability is radical Islam.

Just because Russia is cozy with Iran and crooked regimes doesn’t make them communist? The Russians have no love for the U.S., never have, probably never will. They have a weird history. Well into the early twentieth century, if you think about it, they were still living in feudalism! Imagine that! With all their landmass, agrarian abilities, and labor force as well as many natural resources, they were living centuries behind England, the U.S., Canada, Australia, and the West in general. They dove straight into full-fledged communism, which even Karl Marx would say is insane. The Russians in 2011 are still far behind the U.S. in standard of living, infrastructure, finance, quality of life, technology, etc. They were hostile to NATO and the West for so long that they built up allies in the Middle East and with rogue nations. Those friendships stuck, sadly. The Putinesque Russians still are anti-Western and want to see Russia come to greatness and stand up to the U.S. being a superpower again. They’re doing that through their alliances with rogue nations to make $$$ and keep power with them.

That’s how I see it anyway.

Well considering what what taught at the school of Lenin this may well be a deception. Russia in many ways resembles capitalism today. If this is the case why support a Nuclear Program with Iran.

Israel in the 90’s discover tunnels which contained enough Nuclear Warheads to distroy Israel. Obviously they were fortunate.

Yet it remains to be seen when power is strong enough and Russsia is capible of waging war what they will do.

They obviously have no agenda of maintaining World Peace what would indicate that? So your impression is world dominance with Capitalism?

The genocide of the Jews is on record today. Theres a massive effort by Christains combined with Jews to get them out of Russia…today.

God Bless, Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Be nice, Andrew!

LOL, when did you become an expert on Russia and what does it have to do with Orthodoxy?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[GaryTaylor]

LOL, when did you become an expert on Russia and what does it have to do with Orthodoxy?

In Christ,
Andrew

It doesn’t have anything to do with the ROC I’m talking strickly the Russian situation. Personally I hope the entire counrty converts to ROC. And brings world peace. I don’t see it though do you?

Have you even read the books I mentioned? I believe they would change your thinking.

God Bless, GT

 

[GaryTaylor]

World dominance with capitalism? No, not necessarily. I don’t think there will be world dominance of anything. Capitalism is alive and well in many parts, light socialism in places like Europe and Canada, etc., dictatorships like in Venezuela, Libya, etc, theocracies like Iran, some communist hold-outs like Laos, N.Korea, Cuba, and I still maintain the biggest threat to instability is radical Islam.

Just because Russia is cozy with Iran and crooked regimes doesn’t make them communist? The Russians have no love for the U.S., never have, probably never will. They have a weird history. Well into the early twentieth century, if you think about it, they were still living in feudalism! Imagine that! With all their landmass, agrarian abilities, and labor force as well as many natural resources, they were living centuries behind England, the U.S., Canada, Australia, and the West in general. They dove straight into full-fledged communism, which even Karl Marx would say is insane. The Russians in 2011 are still far behind the U.S. in standard of living, infrastructure, finance, quality of life, technology, etc. They were hostile to NATO and the West for so long that they built up allies in the Middle East and with rogue nations. Those friendships stuck, sadly. The Putinesque Russians still are anti-Western and want to see Russia come to greatness and stand up to the U.S. being a superpower again. They’re doing that through their alliances with rogue nations to make $$$ and keep power with them.

That’s how I see it anyway.

I don’t totally disagree, there’s obviously many ways to view this especially with Vladimir Putnim in control.

You know I believe there some very good thinkers who post here including yourself. But the fact us posting here isn’t changing anything. Somhow we need a more active personal role in what is going on today. And I agree with Islam also.

Hey it not hard to tell with the chaos in the middle east an the idea this will turn to capitalism is a pretty far fetched idea.

I don’t bet and I would take odds on that.

The UN? Reeally what good could be said for them?

I see a struggle for world power and I believe the US is way more involved through world banking than anyone wants to admitt.

Lets face it we have to speak with a charitable tone and not in regards to religion, politics.is what I’m now referring to.

How much of an affect to you believe Russia is capible of having on China? Look how close N-Korea and China are? Its going to be an interesting decade. And your right especially in the middle east.

But I’m convinced the biggest mistake as the US we can make is pulling out of Iraq. I realize no-one wants to be there. But already look at the chaos with Chrsitains? What happens with no US in Iraq? Will not Iran immediatly push to overcome that country? Then what happens to the situation with Russia/Iran as oppsoed to Israel.

Lots of variables for sure. Not many good.

While it may correct to not define Russia as communist. How would you deine them? They certainly are not capitalist. They show signs of capitalism. Which is in line with Lenin’s school of war. Its still a totally authoritarian society. There’s no, the people voice speak for the public. I’m not seeing that.

God Bless, GT

There’s a lot of variables an not many which I see that are great.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It doesn’t have anything to do with the ROC I’m talking strickly the Russian situation. Personally I hope the entire counrty converts to ROC. And brings world peace. I don’t see it though do you?

LOL I actually read, how about you? Have you even read the books I mentioned? I believe they would change your thinking.

How about we reach a level of respect in posting which at the moment you seem incapible of? Whats your issue Harpazo? Lets just get straight to the point?

Here’ a link, not the best but an idea of what really happening.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommunist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation&ei=fsTeTaWvA4bn0QGM8pDLCg&usg=AFQjCNGyCzN19y3hAlkVc_3A6O1Aezd8Ng

God Bless, GT

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Blessings to you, too, Gary.

I would define Russia as a fledgling democracy with tons of corruption. They’re certainly not yet a democracy because of all the statist rhetoric and tons of state-run media and censorship. But they’re not communist at all. It’s an interesting question, labeling Russia? I have read online that lots of Russians would prefer to go back to Communism. I know the religious there, the Orthodox, etc. don’t want it! Presidents have too much power in Russia…

When you talk about we lay folks in America taking a more active role in changing Russia, honestly, I can’t imagine what kind of role I could play?

I don’t totally disagree, there’s obviously many ways to view this especially with Vladimir Putnim in control.

You know I believe there some very good thinkers who post here including yourself. But the fact us posting here isn’t changing anything. Somhow we need a more active personal role in what is going on today. And I agree with Islam also.

Hey it not hard to tell with the chaos in the middle east an the idea this will turn to capitalism is a pretty far fetched idea.

I don’t bet and I would take odds on that.

The UN? Reeally what good could be said for them?

I see a struggle for world power and I believe the US is way more involved through world banking than anyone wants to admitt.

Lets face it we have to speak with a charitable tone and not in regards to religion, politics.is what I’m now referring to.

How much of an affect to you believe Russia is capible of having on China? Look how close N-Korea and China are? Its going to be an interesting decade. And your right especially in the middle east.

But I’m convinced the biggest mistake as the US we can make is pulling out of Iraq. I realize no-one wants to be there. But already look at the chaos with Chrsitains? What happens with no US in Iraq? Will not Iran immediatly push to overcome that country? Then what happens to the situation with Russia/Iran as oppsoed to Israel.

Lots of variables for sure. Not many good.

While it may correct to not define Russia as communist. How would you deine them? They certainly are not capitalist. They show signs of capitalism. Which is in line with Lenin’s school of war. Its still a totally authoritarian society. There’s no, the people voice speak for the public. I’m not seeing that.

God Bless, GT

There’s a lot of variables an not many which I see that are great.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

You have to consider Vladimir Putnim controls Russia. really what is he considered? Mafia of Russia? Or authoritarian?

To me they are demonic. (thats how I seee them). Call it what you will. They still have communist ties with other communist countries and their current government has communist leanings and are taking them backwards in their economy. Kind of like us right now

To begin with Communism is an ideal which the USSR attempted to bring about through socialism. Communism has never existed in any sustainable way. If it did exist, then we would all be living in Utopia.

Nonetheless Russia is not trying to embrace a society based on Biblical teaching. And the same could be said for the USA today though not to the degree of Russia.

Who are “they”. Russia is the most theistic country in Europe. csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0506/Russia-emerges-as-Europe-s-most-God-believing-nation/(page)/2

 

[GaryTaylor]

Who are “they”. Russia is the most theistic country in Europe. csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0506/Russia-emerges-as-Europe-s-most-God-believing-nation/(page)/2

Russia is Europes most God believing Nation? LOL Look at the size of the country? That same statement could have been made during the Cold War. If they are the most God believing Nation why is there a Moritorium on the Catholic Faith? Why is the ROC censored? Why is gencide with the Jews rampant? Thats God believeing?

And BTW your certainly wrong as far as Christainity goes. Here are the statistics which include the leaders world wide.

Rank Nation Number Percent
1 USA 224,457,000 85%
2 Brazil 139,000,000 93%
3 Mexico 86,120,000 99%
4 Russia 80,000,000 60%
5 China 70,000,000 5.7%
6 Germany 67,000,000 83%
7 Philippines 63,470,000 93%
8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88%
9 Italy 47,690,000 90%
10 France 44,150,000 98%
11 Nigeria 38,180,000

Where did you find that on Ask Yahoo…LOL

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

But the OP is Schism. Russias converstion would end the schism. Peroid.

The apostolic work of the Russian clergy has small result. The internal missions are against the Raskolniki, the mystic and the rationalist sects, the Mohammedans, the Catholics, the Lutherans, and the Jews. The missionaries direct their efforts towards the conversion of dissidents to Orthodoxy rather by the “assistance of the police” and by human means than by a supernatural spirit and by convincing arguments. All efforts, not excluding deportation to Siberia, have failed to secure the conversion of the Raskolniki, who since 1905 have enjoyed a certain liberty, and at the present time maintain a great propaganda. Their number is estimated at 15,000,000. Among Catholics and Lutherans the Russian missions are without effect; in fact since 1905 many of the Orthodox have embraced Catholicism or Lutheranism. For three centuries Russian missionaries have worked for the conversion of the Mohammedan Tatars; but the trivial nature of the propaganda among that people was shown in 1905, when 500,000 Christian Tatars returned to the faith of Islam.

The foreign missions of Russia are in North and South America, Japan, Corea, and Persia. In North America the efforts of the Orthodox missionaries are directed to the conversion of the Uniate Ruthenians who emigrate to that continent. In other countries their efforts are almost without result, with the exception of Japan, where Ivan Kasatkin, who is now an archbishop, and who went to those islands in 1860, succeeded in establishing a Japanese branch of the Orthodox Church, Which numbers about 30,000 adherents and about 40 native priests (cf. “La Chiesa russa”, pp. 397-539).

The Church of Russia is the support and strength of Orthodoxy, which, counting Russians, Greeks, and Rumanians, has more than 110 millions of adherents. The conversion of Russia to Catholicism, therefore, would end the Eastern Schism. But the hour of a reconciliation between the East and the West is yet far distant, however much desired by Catholics and also by Russians, such as Vladimir Soloveff. There is no doubt that among the cultured classes of Russia there are to be found persons who desire this union, and who readily recognize the defects of their national Church; but there is no movement towards union with Catholicism. As a rule, the cultured classes of Russia are contaminated with the poison of infidelity; while the lower classes are slaves of superstition or ignorance, and most attached to the formalities of their rite. They are the easy prey of the rationalist or mystic Russian sects. Possibly Russia would have been Catholic if, after the Union of Brest, politics and human passions had not rendered the condition of the Uniates most unhappy, and placed obstacles in the way of the development of the Ruthenian clergy. But it is useless to lament the past; and every effort should be made that the latent religious forces of Russia may some day find their full development in union with Catholicism under a single shepherd.

New Avent

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Are you basing this belief on the Fatima revelations?

For the record; The Immaculate conception is revealed from heaven in France in 1858 by Our Lady of Lourdes, four years after Pope Pius IX defined the Immaculate conception, to defeat Darwinism, Rationalists, Positivists, Mechanists, Materialists, and Naturalists who were gaining popularity and protesting and proving by scientific philosophies to discredit God’s intervention with man. From these gave birth to “Communism”, which ultimately removed God from the picture.

It is not until 1917 when Our Lady of Fatima appears to reveal that the Holy Father is to “consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart”, not the Immaculate conception. When Pope John Paul II makes this proclamation, consecrating the Immaculate heart of Mary to Russia.

The pope followed divine providence and Russia today is free to worship God, even at the risk of being killed, but will not be harmed.

Here is the quote from the apparition of our lady, "To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart…The good will be martyred, the Holy Father (the pope) will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will Triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted the world…The Holy Father will suffer greatly. I will be by his side to the end in order to receive his sacrifice. THe wicked will make several attempts on his life, but they cannot harm him".

Pope John Paul II Pontificate begins in 1978 long after 1917. A Catholic doctrine is divinely revealed and inspired by the Holy Spirit, followed by signs and wonders. The Immaculate conception was believed in from the Eastern Orthodox Church back to the 7th century. The Pope defined it as a weapon to defeat man’s doctrine from removing God from the faithful.

Yet Orthodox who refuse communion with the popes, protest the Immaculate conception?

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Russia is Europes most God believing Nation? LOL Look at the size of the country? That same statement could have been made during the Cold War. If they are the most God believing Nation why is there a Moritorium on the Catholic Faith? Why is the ROC censored? Why is gencide with the Jews rampant? Thats God believeing?

And BTW your certainly wrong as far as Christainity goes. Here are the statistics which include the leaders world wide.

Rank Nation Number Percent
1 USA 224,457,000 85%
2 Brazil 139,000,000 93%
3 Mexico 86,120,000 99%
4 Russia 80,000,000 60%
5 China 70,000,000 5.7%
6 Germany 67,000,000 83%
7 Philippines 63,470,000 93%
8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88%
9 Italy 47,690,000 90%
10 France 44,150,000 98%
11 Nigeria 38,180,000

Where did you find that on Ask Yahoo…LOL

God Bless, Gary

Gary,

Did you actually look at the article I cite or did you just respond “LOL”? Do you have something a priori against this polling company or against the Christian Science Monitor?

I know it is tempting to disparage or dismiss data a priori that doesn’t support one´s thesis. In logic it is called “poisoning the well”. Since I am sure you are not simply sowing logical fallacies, perhaps you could tell me on what basis you doubt this survey from April of 2011? At least I provided a link for the source so you can look it up. Your data is ambiguous–“rank” for what?-- and you don’t cite a source or a date for that data. Hence, without better support, your data is meaningless.

Also, you’ve called somebody “demonic” in a previous post. Are you referring to all Russians? If so, I should think that would put you at odds with the Moderators on CAF, since insulting entire nations is frowned upon here. See here regarding derogatory terms. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=270175

Could you please clear up who you are calling “demonic”.

Finally, could you please cite a source for the following (outrageous) claim about Russia:

gencide with the Jews rampant

If this cannot be substantiated, I would hope you would take that back as well.

I am pleased, however, you are having so many laughs.

 

[Hesychios]

But the OP is Schism. Russias converstion would end the schism. Peroid.
…
New Avent

That article was published almost100 years ago, and the [old] Catholic Encyclopedia is noteworthy for it’s bias and spin (and sometimes errors) in most things concerning the eastern churches.

It is not a credible resource.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree; I’m sometimes shocked at how biased and emotional the language of the catholic encyclopedia can be. It seems very emotionally-driven and apologetic rather than professional and dispassionate as it should be IMO.

That article was published almost100 years ago, and the [old] Catholic Encyclopedia is noteworthy for it’s bias and spin (and sometimes errors) in most things concerning the eastern churches.

It is not a credible resource.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I agree; I’m sometimes shocked at how biased and emotional the language of the catholic encyclopedia can be. It seems very emotionally-driven and apologetic rather than professional and dispassionate as it should be IMO.

The page was updated MAY 2011.

“But I agree”

 

[GaryTaylor]

That article was published almost100 years ago, and the [old] Catholic Encyclopedia is noteworthy for it’s bias and spin (and sometimes errors) in most things concerning the eastern churches.

It is not a credible resource.

The catholic NEW ADVENT is not a crediable source?
Who should we go the ROC under Russian government rule?

Let me know when you think we reached a credable sourse. I’ll post a 2011 Documentry for you when I have the time. Which will even further confirm most of what we said on this thread about the situation in Russia.

Do you realize all the Cold War missles were reactivated and aimed at the USA in 95 within {2-minutes}. In ten minutes they made a choice not to fire them. But they still sit ready for Nuclear War.

God Bless. Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

Article 14 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation (12 December 1993) stipulates that “no religion may be accepted as state or compulsory”; and article 4.1 of the Russian law on freedom of conscience and religious associations (17 September 1997) reads: “The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion may be established as a state or compulsory religion. Religious associations are separated from the state and are equal before the law.”

From the side of the church, bishops, priests and laypeople have argued that the Russian Orthodox Church is and should be separated from the state. Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad has said that "the Russian Orthodox Church through His Holiness has declared on innumerable occasions at various levels that it needs no privileges, no status of a state religion. All we need is freedom.

The persistent allegations that the Russian Orthodox Church is in effect or aspires to be a state church – or at least has advantages over other religious communities – tend in the majority to come from active atheists and representatives of new religious movements. Thus when a member of the holy synod makes a statement to the effect that “Russian statehood is a rampart of the Orthodox Church”, it puts society on the alert.(7) And the desire of government authorities at all levels for the church’s support in promoting social, education or cultural programmes is likely to elicit rigorous, if often unwarranted, criticism in the press and among some politicians.

Obviously with a moritorium on the Catholic Faith there is still an abundant issue. And this article is also recent.

 

[thallon]

i think divisions come about along cultural lines
as well as interpetative divisions.
People divide over all sorts of things: how to baptise, gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc etc etc

its probably a point of view based on scripture.
I have a bunch of scriptures, you have a bunch of scriptures,
one is right, one is sort of right…something like that.

I am a protestant christian, grew up on: lutheran, church of christ, assembly of God,
however as a young man i desired to follow Francis and become a catholic,
so i looked into the benedicines, the Capuchins…in the end i married an assembly
of God woman so thats where we worshipped.

Maybe multi-cultural Christianity comes from God, i think it does.
it’s like divide and multiply and fill the earth command.

 

[Harpazo]

Article 14 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation (12 December 1993) stipulates that “no religion may be accepted as state or compulsory”; and article 4.1 of the Russian law on freedom of conscience and religious associations (17 September 1997) reads: “The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion may be established as a state or compulsory religion. Religious associations are separated from the state and are equal before the law.”

From the side of the church, bishops, priests and laypeople have argued that the Russian Orthodox Church is and should be separated from the state. Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad has said that "the Russian Orthodox Church through His Holiness has declared on innumerable occasions at various levels that it needs no privileges, no status of a state religion. All we need is freedom.

The persistent allegations that the Russian Orthodox Church is in effect or aspires to be a state church – or at least has advantages over other religious communities – tend in the majority to come from active atheists and representatives of new religious movements. Thus when a member of the holy synod makes a statement to the effect that “Russian statehood is a rampart of the Orthodox Church”, it puts society on the alert.(7) And the desire of government authorities at all levels for the church’s support in promoting social, education or cultural programmes is likely to elicit rigorous, if often unwarranted, criticism in the press and among some politicians.

Obviously with a moritorium on the Catholic Faith there is still an abundant issue. And this article is also recent.

Yeeesh! People around here complain of anti-Catholicism, but no one dares complain of anti-Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Andrew