Question about the Great Schism

[gurneyhalleck1]

Option 1: The pope negotiates with the Orthodox and is willing to return to the pre-schism vision of the papacy—a primacy of honor but not by any means infallible or universal in jurisdiction. The pope retracts the mindset of Vatican I and admits that all bishops are equal, with Rome have a primacy of honor in which his opinions and venerable wisdom are sought but never can he unilaterally proclaim doctrine without councils and the polity of the early church

Option 2: The Orthodox Churches all agree to accept papal infallibility and the universal supremacy of the papacy over all bishops. The Orthodox accept Lumen Genium’s vision of the pope and the Vatican I proclamations. They admit that they’ve been wrong for 1,000 years.

There is no middle ground. Which one do you think will happen, Gary?

I see a church that grew together since the Apostles. Who chose to live the NT as dictated by Jesus Christ.

We are saying now there’s no sense in conversation, its beyond repair? Man made errors cannot be corrected, discussed at this point? No hope?

The dialogue with the Angelicans came along far after ecumenism with the EO begain.

The goal of reconciling all who profess Christian faith to bring them into a single, visible organization is an idea as old as the apostles.

Theres nothing constant in life but change. To assume change in the future will happen is for sure. How will the changes occur remains to be seen.

If we think a moment about the most powerfull societys in the world. Theres a long list which doesn’t include the Church of Christ. How the Skull and Bones or Bilderberg etc play a role in the world movement all have a ripple effect. To force an existence into a more difficult way of life no doubt would cause talks which may never otherwise happen? Never mind how Islam populates in future decades.

I don’t see a united church so unreal. I also don’t see it as a Catholic concept but as a NT way of life. Opinions may vary of course among all individuals. Your entitled to your opinion.

I get the impression that as former Catholics you believe this is just a idea Catholics have? I see opposite to that daily here. I also see Catholics who are convinced the church must descend to an earlier period. Hey opinions are opinions. I understand their feelings also. I understand yours clearly.

I believe open dialogue with those who are capible is the only solution. Negative is an atmosphere I don’t spend much time in. So my own optimistic outlook also becomes my opinion?

I see everytime things get a bit hard people run to the church. I don’t see anything but hard times coming. Sorry but I don’t have this great hope for the West after obverving this for 50+ years.

Let me ask you a question, anyone actually. Do you believe its possible for man to survive this population without divine intervention at this point?

I’m on the contrary convinced its impossible. While I view the bigger picture with a critical eye. The Church situation I see as a Cross, and the only option for eternal salvation.

How than do we lose the least amount of Souls?

Is there someone who should speak for all of Christianity beside Benedict XVI today? To me in essense I already see this happening. Maybe you see this different?

GT

 

[dzheremi]

I wonder why that is so common? The facts are the same no matter what, so why are Catholics so optimistic about it? It isn’t any skin off their nose if it doesn’t happen.

Why what is so common? Why ex-Catholics stop believing in the Catholic Church’s vision of itself?

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is no middle ground. Which one do you think will happen, Gary?

Listen Cathilcs thinking about the schism in the real world? Thats void, not a reality. Its not skin off our nose…as mentioned. Its good sense for Gods World period.

My day is consisting of completing St Lukes in Hartford which stands between the Hosp and a Abortion clinic and wasn’t being used by the CC. It saved 300 lifes in 6-mths.

The schism is CAF topic and has been a topic of 2010 of Benedict, On a daily basis I can’t think of a Catholic who dwells on this.

Speaking statistics? I don’t think the CC is worried about its numbers. Its not the concern.

1] Whats the diffference between the Byzantine Catholic Mass and the EO Mass?

2] How is the Pope defined in Nicaea and Chalcedon?

Nobody has answered any questions. Who is speaking worldwide for Christianity today? Is it not Pope Benedict?

3] Does the Holy Spirit reside in both the CC and EO?

4]You don’t believe in Apostolic Succession, or it existed from Peter to Benedict? Matthew 16:16-19 is defined exactly how in your mind?

5] Is there not a need for unity of the Universal Church in mankind.

I mentioned above the exact issue’s with the Papacy that came up. Infallibility I never seen come up but here. And thats right from Benedict I could quote the page and exact words from his book.

I mention what came up above the exact responsibility of the Pope. Look back through this thread.

Nicaea mentioned the Pope as the “proto”. Chalcedon defined Rome as first and Constantinople as second. Let alone scripture of Matthew which I bought up on the other thread with all the relating context of Biblical Scripture. Peter is mentioned more in scripture than any other Apostle almost 5X as many times. John is second.

How everything plays out is in Gods Hands. My point is we as simple human beings have a choice to save souls, or leave this totally in Gods Hands and continue on the our path. In which case I see a significant lose as opposed to the opposite.

Exactly how it could work? With God I have no idea. But I do believe its little more than your A/B choice.

Listen, say we as American lose this country, God forbid. Whats happens to Christianity then. That immediatly changes choice A/B and we now live in a underground church. Which according to the Jesuits is already being established.

A focus back on Civil Society has become a reality. We have spent so much time in the far corners of earth doing missionary work that we to an extent we have ignored the West. And Benedict mentioned this what last week? He directly asked the question what happened to the Christain faith of the West, and he was talking about North America.

What is actually possible. I can’t dwell on what we can’t acheive. I want to know what we can acheive. And what we can do to bring this about. What really are the logical ideas that can work.

No different than what I kicked around with you before when you proposed the question, “What can I do as an individual”. Power of example for the NT and Morality of love your neighbor and enemy as Christ points out. Living and promoting the teaching. We all have a responsibility to play an active role in this. By keeping the NT constantly in our minds as individuals. We all have an individual responsibility to bring about the Will of God in the NT.

When we live the NT but seperate, then the creeping disease sets in. And the error in thinking comes about like we have seen last Century with many Protestant Churchs actually reaching blasphemy with the BVM.

Point? Change through time happens. Its normal. We split the USA in half as Korea is, and in 20-years you’ll have some very contrasting thing. I see a contrast from Boston to the West in CC thinking. My fathers side of the family is from there so I head up now and then. They are comsumed with pre-Vatican II in that area. Couple hours down I-91 and I don’t see it to that degree here. Any way I believe you understand what I’m saying here.

I don’t view EO or the ROC as heretics, I have no compliant with there lifestyle. There practice of faith. My concern lies how are we going to unite the Universal Church which can only “one”. How will we survive as mankind.

To believe Jesus Christ is pleased with all we see identified under Christianity today? Its simply not doing anthing but bringing forth chaos. Can’t exist in the Kingdom of God. There’s one kingdom, one church. The fact we managed to survive to this point is not a big feat its a period granted from God, thats all it is.

Look at Ancient Egypt and how long they survived and exactly how hey vanished. What happened to them, is exactly whats happing in the USA. Money spent fighting war bought social unrest do to an economy in trouble. The troops refused to fight for no pay and rebeled. Food became on issue as did population. All issues we see in the USA today.

But no to answer your original question I don’t see it this way. But I understand that state of mind and thinking. I’m sure when Jeus Christ was crucified the Jews believed they were serving Gods will to the best of their ability. Today we see the error in there thinking.

I think its much more complex and will take an effort of Christian love and respect. Regardless if we look at say a specific area and it offends us. Guitars at Mass, or the Host held in h hands as I spoke about with Mickey on that other thread. Trust me brother I’m appauled by much of this as Mickey and I agreed upon. But I handle it differently.

We have to teach, not find flaws. find common bonds and teach that which we know is wrong and correct what we know is wrong. And its no different than with Luther, you can’t do it from outside the church.

God Bless, Gary.

Hey, I have to send you a PM I want to show you something and see what thing about this Les-Paul.

 

[Bluegoat]

Why what is so common? Why ex-Catholics stop believing in the Catholic Church’s vision of itself?

Not that so much - the CC doesn’t say that reunion is going to be soon, or i close, IMO. It may say that relations are good, which comparatively is a fair statement I think. But many Catholics seem convinced that reunion is really on the horizon in a meaningful way.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Is there someone who should speak for all of Christianity beside Benedict XVI today?
GT

Well, there was this Jesus fellow who spoke pretty well, and in fact, still does…

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Option 1: The pope negotiates with the Orthodox and is willing to return to the pre-schism vision of the papacy—a primacy of honor but not by any means infallible or universal in jurisdiction. The pope retracts the mindset of Vatican I and admits that all bishops are equal, with Rome have a primacy of honor in which his opinions and venerable wisdom are sought but never can he unilaterally proclaim doctrine without councils and the polity of the early church

Option 2: The Orthodox Churches all agree to accept papal infallibility and the universal supremacy of the papacy over all bishops. The Orthodox accept Lumen Genium’s vision of the pope and the Vatican I proclamations. They admit that they’ve been wrong for 1,000 years.

There is no middle ground. Which one do you think will happen, Gary?

Option 2 will never fly. “The Orthodox Churches all agree” means the laity and the priests, not just one figurehead, so satisfying Option 2 is very difficult. Thus, Option 1. Rome has plenty of room to save face by redefining infallibility and supremacy somewhat.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, there was this Jesus fellow who spoke pretty well, and in fact, still does…

Fact is someone since Jesus…“Peter and the Apostles” have been spreading the word of Christ in NT. From the time of Nero till today. Since pre 100-AD they called that the Catholic Church:shrug:

Now Protestant denominations hold the belief that God speaks through the Bible, and that any Christian who is properly disposed (e.g. by prayer) will be able to discern God’s will by reading its contents. There is no need for a pope or religious leader to “speak for God”.

Is this what you are proposing? I have a bit more time and we could talk?

God Bless, Gary

 

[Wesley7]

I have no problem being in communion with a legitimate Pope, but if my Orthodox brothers and sisters say no ~ then I have to listen to them.

 

[dzheremi]

Not that so much - the CC doesn’t say that reunion is going to be soon, or i close, IMO. It may say that relations are good, which comparatively is a fair statement I think. But many Catholics seem convinced that reunion is really on the horizon in a meaningful way.

I think it has something to do with the way that the RCC presents itself in relation to other churches. When you go through RCIA (or at least this was the case when I did), it’s not as though the teachers try to hide the fact that there are these divisions between the churches. What they do instead (and not as a sort of conspiracy to present untruth; I do believe that they truly believe this) is provide various explanations for the things that separate the churches that make the RCC communion seem like it has made only the most logical decisions possible, and so any other reasons for division are not really doctrinal, but cultural and political.** If the EO/OO only knew what Catholicism really teaches, they wouldn’t these problems with it**, etc. etc.

I soured on this worldview quite some time ago, you see.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think it has something to do with the way that the RCC presents itself in relation to other churches. When you go through RCIA (or at least this was the case when I did), it’s not as though the teachers try to hide the fact that there are these divisions between the churches. What they do instead (and not as a sort of conspiracy to present untruth; I do believe that they truly believe this) is provide various explanations for the things that separate the churches that make the RCC communion seem like it has made only the most logical decisions possible, and so any other reasons for division are not really doctrinal, but cultural and political.** If the EO/OO only knew what Catholicism really teaches, they wouldn’t these problems with it**, etc. etc.

I soured on this worldview quite some time ago, you see.

Ah yes, I have met that story here many times with relation to Protestantism. If only we Protestants knew what the Catholic Church really taught, or knew any history, we would see that it is true.

Could be. Some days people are a mystery to me.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, exactly. Same thing. If only so-and-so really understood _____ (thing that seems obvious to someone who already believes it), then ______ (outcome) would happen!

I suppose “Mad Libs of Catholic Initiation for Adults” would’ve violated any number of copyright claims.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To be fair to Catholics, I think that whole “if you truly understood ___________, you’d never leave us!” is common in many religions. Anglicanism happens to be an exception. Think about how many denominations have this mindset.

 

[dzheremi]

It’s absolutely common to most religions. There’s a difference between trying to appeal to people who are leaving your church this way vs. trying to appeal to those outside of your church, though. I think the second situation makes at least slightly more sense (since it is likely that many born-Orthodox/Protestants/others haven’t read or otherwise been educated from RC sources), but for people who were once Catholic…it just seems like a strange conceit to try to say that this is the case all the time. Isn’t it at least theoretically possible that someone can learn from completely orthodox Catholic sources, and be a practicing Catholic for years, and eventually come to disbelieve, or at least believe in something else more? I’m not even talking about me in this case (as I wasn’t Catholic for very long; the best I can say for myself is that I really tried…and failed), but about the many theologians, monks, priests and others who presumably knew Catholicism a lot better than the average person and yet still left for Orthodoxy.

And, yes, before anyone goes there, the opposite situation would apply (Orthodox converting to Catholicism because they really do come to believe in what Catholicism teaches, not out of any ignorance of Orthodoxy’s tenets).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I agree. The argument is not compelling at all. It is entirely conceivable that someone can read the catechism, read Lumen Gentium, read Vatican I and look at history, Scripture, the Fathers, the councils and say “what Catholicism says here is not what I see there?” The idea that the person is ignorant or foolish or uneducated is a real misnomer in that I know so MANY people of great intellect, historical knowledge, common sense, and intellectual honesty who were actually seeking Catholicism but couldn’t buy into it. And they were SAD about it! Along with the ignorance angle, some throw in a malice charge that people who come to diverge from Catholicism are anti-Catholic often isn’t true either. In fact, on more than one occasion I have actually tried to cover my eyes from history, theology, and the Fathers and the things I know to be true because for me to walk away from Catholicism, it’s like a tragedy, very painful and quite frankly I’m still going through a lot of emotions about it. It’s a psychological trip for sure for some folks, not the least of all being me!

It’s absolutely common to most religions. There’s a difference between trying to appeal to people who are leaving your church this way vs. trying to appeal to those outside of your church, though. I think the second situation makes at least slightly more sense (since it is likely that many born-Orthodox/Protestants/others haven’t read or otherwise been educated from RC sources), but for people who were once Catholic…it just seems like a strange conceit to try to say that this is the case all the time. Isn’t it at least theoretically possible that someone can learn from completely orthodox Catholic sources, and be a practicing Catholic for years, and eventually come to disbelieve, or at least believe in something else more? I’m not even talking about me in this case (as I wasn’t Catholic for very long; the best I can say for myself is that I really tried…and failed), but about the many theologians, monks, priests and others who presumably knew Catholicism a lot better than the average person and yet still left for Orthodoxy.

And, yes, before anyone goes there, the opposite situation would apply (Orthodox converting to Catholicism because they really do come to believe in what Catholicism teaches, not out of any ignorance of Orthodoxy’s tenets).

 

[dzheremi]

And I agree with your agreement!

Nah, seriously, I feel what you’re going through, too. I feel like I’m walking away from my family or something, because half of my family is Catholic. And a great many of my friends going back many years (California, y’know…), and so a lot of the social structure that goes along with it. It doesn’t help that the born-Copts I know tell me things like “I feel bad for the white people in my church; they never have any friends”.

Even today, months after I decided I couldn’t be Catholic, I often find myself wondering just what the heck I’m doing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Coptic Christianity is definitely a little more foreign than the Orthodoxy I’ve been looking into. The Orthodox parish I’ve visited is Serbian BUT there are hardly any Serbs there! It has Russians, Ukrainians, Anglos like me, and it actually has more converts from Protestantism and Catholicism than it does cradle Orthodox. That’s what’s kind of neat about it. But being a cradle Catholic, I still feel out of place and the fact that the parish owes its roots to Serbia and a Slavic part of the world, I also feel like “what the heck am I doing?” I also question my mindset sometimes in that NOBODY I know is concerned about this theology, soteriology, and faith of the Early Fathers. Most people I know just belong to their church, try their best, and pray hard loving the Lord. Me, I’m on this constant search, seeking, reading, studying, dialoguing with folks like you and the other posters here, and just begging God to lead me to the right spot. Orthodoxy is REALLY foreign to my neck of the woods so if I did choose to get chrismated, IMO, that is really really something that 9 out of 10 people I know would say, “huh?” to

And I agree with your agreement!

Nah, seriously, I feel what you’re going through, too. I feel like I’m walking away from my family or something, because half of my family is Catholic. And a great many of my friends going back many years (California, y’know…), and so a lot of the social structure that goes along with it. It doesn’t help that the born-Copts I know tell me things like “I feel bad for the white people in my church; they never have any friends”.

Even today, months after I decided I couldn’t be Catholic, I often find myself wondering just what the heck I’m doing.

 

[dzheremi]

Coptic Christianity is definitely a little more foreign than the Orthodoxy I’ve been looking into. The Orthodox parish I’ve visited is Serbian BUT there are hardly any Serbs there! It has Russians, Ukrainians, Anglos like me, and it actually has more converts from Protestantism and Catholicism than it does cradle Orthodox. That’s what’s kind of neat about it. But being a cradle Catholic, I still feel out of place and the fact that the parish owes its roots to Serbia and a Slavic part of the world, I also feel like “what the heck am I doing?” I also question my mindset sometimes in that NOBODY I know is concerned about this theology, soteriology, and faith of the Early Fathers. Most people I know just belong to their church, try their best, and pray hard loving the Lord. Me, I’m on this constant search, seeking, reading, studying, dialoguing with folks like you and the other posters here, and just begging God to lead me to the right spot.

I don’t know, Scott. Slavicness hasn’t been a problem for me, although I will admit that when I first went to the local OCA (Russian) Church, it seemed like it was mostly for Slavic people (even though there were hardly any Russians there). I could still get along, but it did feel very foreign. Also, there were a bunch of Eritreans and Ethiopians, because Orthodox is Orthodox over here.

As far as feeling like a weirdo for caring like you do…I have to be honest that after spending so much time trying to “save” my Catholicism with that kind of study, when I finally came to Orthodoxy it was sort of a breath of fresh air in that I didn’t have to do that. It’s not discouraged, so much as not essential. From what I can remember, my RCIA classes had a lot of secular and ecclesiastical history in it. I haven’t encountered much of that so far with the Copts, even though they have plenty.

Orthodoxy is REALLY foreign to my neck of the woods so if I did choose to get chrismated, IMO, that is really really something that 9 out of 10 people I know would say, “huh?” to

Well, be that as it may, it can’t hurt to pray and consider all your options. Maybe those 9 out of 10 would congratulate you after picking their jaws up off the floor?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well the jury is out for sure. I’m looking into it all. The DL felt foreign and weird the first time I went to it; the second time it felt very impressive in many ways. My wife really took to it. I think there are a lot of preconceived notions that growing up in the West has given me. I can’t imagine with my Irish, German, British history coursing through my veins, with the Protestant and Catholic heritage of my forefathers, all of a sudden I shift to the Orthodoxy of the East. I guess my blood rebels at the thought to some degree…

Also it’s a weird thought being a religious “pioneer” of sorts. That is what I’d be with the rest of mine and Kate’s family being Catholic. There’d be no hard feelings at all. My dad is actually pretty cynical about Catholicism. He rarely goes to Mass because of it. He thinks I should shift to anywhere I find things more compelling and truthful. But nevertheless it is an odd feeling, Orthodoxy, to me. I’m just being honest and open about it. The priest from the Orthodox parish I visited was kind enough to quickly return my email and was very gracious to me. He was friendly at coffee hour as well. Trust me, my mind is open. Will I jump into chrismation over night? Nope. Will I even end up in the East? Tough to say. But I have learned a LOT about these wonderful folks in the process at bare minimum. It has opened up a world that nine out of ten folks I know will never experience. The DL is a powerful worship.

I don’t know, Scott. Slavicness hasn’t been a problem for me, although I will admit that when I first went to the local OCA (Russian) Church, it seemed like it was mostly for Slavic people (even though there were hardly any Russians there). I could still get along, but it did feel very foreign. Also, there were a bunch of Eritreans and Ethiopians, because Orthodox is Orthodox over here.

As far as feeling like a weirdo for caring like you do…I have to be honest that after spending so much time trying to “save” my Catholicism with that kind of study, when I finally came to Orthodoxy it was sort of a breath of fresh air in that I didn’t have to do that. It’s not discouraged, so much as not essential. From what I can remember, my RCIA classes had a lot of secular and ecclesiastical history in it. I haven’t encountered much of that so far with the Copts, even though they have plenty.

Well, be that as it may, it can’t hurt to pray and consider all your options. Maybe those 9 out of 10 would congratulate you after picking their jaws up off the floor?

 

[dzheremi]

I guess my blood rebels at the thought to some degree…

Haha. Fair enough. I guess I’m too much of a mutt to really care about that. Sure, it would be more comfortable for me if there were lots of Latinos in the Coptic church (and there are a growing number, but still more or less confined to the church in Mexico and Bolivia), but that’s not going to stop me from entering it if that’s truly where I’m meant to be. Only time and experience will tell.

Also it’s a weird thought being a religious “pioneer” of sorts. That is what I’d be with the rest of mine and Kate’s family being Catholic.

Yeah, there’s also that aspect. I wouldn’t really worry too much about it unless they asked me to bring a freshly-slain buffalo to coffee hour, but yeah…no one in family really gets it either, but then again they also think I am getting a ph.D. in winning at Scrabble, so… (I guess they’re not that far off, in a way)

Trust me, my mind is open. Will I jump into chrismation over night? Nope. Will I even end up in the East? Tough to say. But I have learned a LOT about these wonderful folks in the process at bare minimum. It has opened up a world that nine out of ten folks I know will never experience. The DL is a powerful worship.

This is good. You can’t really go wrong if you’re open to learning wherever you are, and striving to follow where the Holy Spirit leads you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lots of Latinos?

Haha. Fair enough. I guess I’m too much of a mutt to really care about that. Sure, it would be more comfortable for me if there were lots of Latinos in the Coptic church (and there are a growing number, but still more or less confined to the church in Mexico and Bolivia), but that’s not going to stop me from entering it if that’s truly where I’m meant to be. Only time and experience will tell.

Yeah, there’s also that aspect. I wouldn’t really worry too much about it unless they asked me to bring a freshly-slain buffalo to coffee hour, but yeah…no one in family really gets it either, but then again they also think I am getting a ph.D. in winning at Scrabble, so… (I guess they’re not that far off, in a way)

This is good. You can’t really go wrong if you’re open to learning wherever you are, and striving to follow where the Holy Spirit leads you.