Question about the Great Schism

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dzheremi said:
Madre de Dios, what do Mexicans have to do with ANYTHING? La Virgen and the tilma and all that stuff is no more an endorsement of a particular practice any more than we could say that when people see St. Mary or Jesus Christ in the burn patterns on their grilled cheese sandwich (and don’t laugh; I’ve seen the E-bay auction for said sandwich and it had far too many bids on it to be funny) it is a sign from the Divine that they ought to eat more grilled cheese.

A stupid comparison, no doubt, but it is to prove a point: Devotions are for the devoted, without reference to any supposed miracle or resulting good fortune, precisely because our faith is NOT to be based on that! “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign”, remember? In light of that, it certainly makes no sense to look to a supposed miracle to substantiate the faith (“blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe”), and even less sense to use any particular event or miracle to establish or legitimize a given practice (to connect this to the wider theme of this conversation).

Miracles attest to faith, but cannot create it. Notice that for those without faith, nothing is miraculous.
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History is what it is I guess you consider that stupid.🤷
 
dvdjs said:
I think the dichotomy expressed is wrong, and potentially dangerously so. We do not seek to be a remnant church. We must maintain orthodoxy, and we must strive to make orthodoxy “popular”.
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Indeed, but within the context in which I wrote that, in reply to a post that seemed to be equating the popularity of a given devotion with its correctness, it is very right to make the distinction that I have made. In so far as orthodoxy is NOT popular (either in its large O or small o forms), we must strive to maintain our orthodox faith in any situation where there is a conflict between it and the more popular ideas that are outside its boundaries.
 
GaryTaylor said:
History is what is I guess you consider that stupid.🤷
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I don’t consider that stupid at all. Where on earth did you get that idea? :confused:

My grandmother came from Mexico, and I myself experienced my first Catholic mass in Mexico many years ago. I believe that it was that experience that eventually drew me to the Catholic Church, in fact. There is no mistaking or belittling the true faith of the Mexican people. But I am not seeking to overturn or ridicule history (as if that would even be possible when it is in part the history of my own family, and my dear departed grandmother!) so much as place any such events in their proper place relative to the Christian faith itself.

If you take that as a kind of ridicule, I don’t know what to say other than you are reading something into my words that I did not even mean to so much as hint at.
 
dzheremi said:
I don’t consider that stupid at all. Where on earth did you get that idea? :confused:

My grandmother came from Mexico, and I myself experienced my first Catholic mass in Mexico many years ago. I believe that it was that experience that eventually drew me to the Catholic Church, in fact. There is no mistaking or belittling the true faith of the Mexican people. But I am not seeking to overturn or ridicule history (as if that would even be possible when it is in part the history of my own family, and my dear departed grandmother!) so much as place any such events in their proper place relative to the Christian faith itself.

If you take that as a kind of ridicule, I don’t know what to say other than you are reading something into my words that I did not even mean to so much as hint at.
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You compared it to sandwich on e-bay? 🤷 😃

The event happened how? Yes is bought Mexico to Christianity. Yet theres no doubt how it happened. The fact of what its become in relation to a Devotion has nothing to do with the original intercession from Mary though? Right?

Gary
 
GaryTaylor said:
You compared it to sandwich on e-bay? 🤷 😃
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Yes. Yes, I did. Did you somehow skip over the part of my post where I explained why I did that?
The fact of what its become in relation to a Devotion has nothing to do with the original intercession from Mary though? Right?
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Right, and that is precisely why I asked what the story has to do with anything.
 
Is it not considered in the EO that the intercession power of Mary is considered no different that mine or yours in prayer? Or is this an individual belief in the EO?

My point is there is an obvious difference in understanding and reverence. No?

God Bless, Gary
 
I’m not quite sure what you mean, Gary, or why you’re bringing this up. We’re not talking about the EO. We’re talking about Mexico because you brought it up.
 
dzheremi said:
Indeed, but within the context in which I wrote that, in reply to a post that seemed to be equating the popularity of a given devotion with its correctness, it is very right to make the distinction that I have made. In so far as orthodoxy is NOT popular (either in its large O or small o forms), we must strive to maintain our orthodox faith in any situation where there is a conflict between it and the more popular ideas that are outside its boundaries.
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That is fair; it is important to avoid that remnant sense that is not uncommon in American Orthodoxy. It is important to avoid “rather” and hold to “and”. And in doing so it is crucial to have a clear sense of what is “orthodox”. This discernment takes time and holiness, and is fraught with pitfalls like the not-invented-here syndrome etc.

I would like to ask: what are the criteria by which you judge orthodoxy?
 
Ok the situation in the EO places Mary as Theotokos. Is there the belief in prayer intercession by Mary which in the wake of Mexico would not exceed ours?

While we can today say Mexico is a Devotion. The History of what happened is clear through Mary didn’t start as a devotion it become one.

It comes back to your thinking on what you think happened there? Obviously with family ties in Mexico you must see the ability for this type of event to not only be possible but to have happened? How does this weigh on you thinking of Mary in the EO?

To me its seems in contrast to what Michael explained on the other thread of reverence to Mary in the EO? I believe that thread is “The Big Lie”.

Here’s the comment…

“We praise Saint Mary because she was the Mother of Jesus Christ our Lord, and we ask for her prayers just like we ask for anyone’s prayers. But there can be a point where this singular devotion can become excessive, even scandalous and thereby divisive.”

God Bless, Gary
 
dzheremi, you follow where I’m coming from now bro? I’m not concerned with the devotions but the actual historic facts in relation to Mary.

What came from that is another story.

God Bless, Gary
 
dvdjs said:
That is fair; it is important to avoid that remnant sense that is not uncommon in American Orthodoxy. It is important to avoid “rather” and hold to “and”. And in doing so it is crucial to have a clear sense of what is “orthodox”. This discernment takes time and holiness, and is fraught with pitfalls like the not-invented-here syndrome etc.

I would like to ask: what are the criteria by which you judge orthodoxy?
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By that same token, you could say ‘American Catholicism’ . . .

Orthodoxy is what is properly defined and understood in the Eastern Christian Encyclopedia.
 
dvdjs said:
I would like to ask: what are the criteria by which you judge orthodoxy?
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A fair question, though in the interest of not making this thread about myself I will say that I am learning at the feet of many great Coptic Orthodox clergy and laypeople, so it is to them I defer in all judgments of Orthodoxy. It is not for nothing that the great St. Athanasius whose paragraph has stirred the current discussion is considered among them (as among the EO, I gather) a pillar of Orthodoxy. If he says something is wrong, I do believe it is wrong. And if today’s Coptic clergy, following in his footsteps, likewise say that a given practice has no place in Orthodox worship, I believe them and seek to follow their guidance as best I can.
 
dzheremi said:
A fair question, though in the interest of not making this thread about myself I will say that I am learning at the feet of many great Coptic Orthodox clergy and laypeople, so it is to them I defer in all judgments of Orthodoxy. It is not for nothing that the great St. Athanasius whose paragraph has stirred the current discussion is considered among them (as among the EO, I gather) a pillar of Orthodoxy. If he says something is wrong, I do believe it is wrong. And if today’s Coptic clergy, following in his footsteps, likewise say that a given practice has no place in Orthodox worship, I believe them and seek to follow their guidance as best I can.
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Just wondering: What guidance do they give about spending time in “religious” arguments on the net?
 
Wesley7 said:
By that same token, you could say ‘American Catholicism’ . . .
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I don’t think that you could. In fact, I see prevailing mentality in the CC as pretty much the opposite of looking to a remnant church.
Orthodoxy is what is properly defined and understood in the Eastern Christian Encyclopedia.
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Huh?
 
I’ll have you know that I consult on a semi-regular basis with actual Orthodox people regarding any issue that might trouble me as relates to my posting or the general atmosphere here on CAF, and have brought many an issue from CAF discussions over to my Orthodox mentors, inspired as I am by my continued involvement in discussions. If this were not the case, and these discussions did not lead me to seek guidance and solid Orthodox teaching, I would stop posting altogether. But thank you for your concern.
 
dzheremi said:
I’ll have you know that I consult on a semi-regular basis with actual Orthodox people regarding any issue that might trouble me as relates to my posting or the general atmosphere here on CAF, and have brought many an issue from CAF discussions over to my Orthodox mentors, inspired as I am by my continued involvement in discussions. If this were not the case, and these discussions did not lead me to seek guidance and solid Orthodox teaching, I would stop posting altogether. But thank you for your concern.
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Well, it sounds that you are in contact with good people, and that should help keep you grounded. Sometimes you can find inspiration in internet discussions, and sometimes just rancor and branding. I wonder if the net with many blogs and fora, and so much truthiness, will been seen, over the span of years, as a good? Or as far worse than TV: not just as homogenized waste, but a waste that is tailor made for each individual. The more I see the more I wonder. I suppose it is because of all of the instability that I see. Does the internet feed it, or just better expose it?
 
I think that any media or medium of communication must be taken on balance to contain both good and bad possibilities. As always, it is up to us to choose the good and shun the bad. Separate from that, though, I would worry more about the pure “time sink” factor, by which we may be engaged in interesting or illuminating discussions and all, but just in terms of the time spent on them instead of doing something more constructive or to further our own salvation, we may in a sense convert what could otherwise be good into something bad by our over-reliance on it or overuse of it. Again the only way to guard against that is by trying to maintain a balance. I must admit that I have not always (and certainly not recently) done so myself, but I am trying to privately re-introduce a certain level of discipline into my life. This will, God-willing, become easier once I have my own FOC, but I digress…

The internet does both, because we do both in our use of it. 😊
 
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