Question about the importance of Latin

[mercygate]

I know my experience is different because I grew up only with mass in the vernacular and not until I was an adult did I have attend a mass in Latin. I’ve had teachers, etc. prior talk it down, but I never listened. And when I began studying music, there was so much beautiful sacred music in Latin, it got me thinking that those teachers/mentors were either basing it on bad experiences or other influences. So, my experience has been a good one - and perhaps why I’m not adverse to Latin or other traditional languages, as well as the vernacular.

The fact that so much of the best music ever written in the West was written for the Church and much of that was written for settings of the Mass gives us a large group of people who actually understand the language of the Ordinary of the Mass and have learned it easily and well through their participation in secular chorales. Go figure. I sang Latin liturgical music for decades without ever attending a Latin Mass. It makes me think people who claim NOT to know this stuff have been stuffing their heads in a drawer. This is part of our culture, not some esoteric, elite, arcana.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I do not understand your indignation, The portions of the liturgy that do not change are easily learned by anybody in the language of their rite. I have friends who gleefully chant the whole liturgy in Old Church Slavonic without the least sense of alienation.

Some should.

My priest had the experience that when he had the Creed sung in English for the first time, a number of people complained about the “heresy.” When he, for instance told them that indeed the Church did believe that Christ was “True God of True God,” they said they couldn’t believe that and left.

I have a friend who is a bi-ritual Deacon in the Catholic Church who comfortably switches between the Novus Ordo, the Traditional Latin Mass and the Ukranian Liturgy. When I have attended the Maronite liturgy, I have been thrilled to hear the consecration in ancient Syriac – the language closest to that spoken by Our Lord. We are a big, multi-lingual family.

Is your negativity innate, or do you cultivate it?

On the contrary, I have often stood up for, for instance, the use of Slovanic at my first Orthodox parish (I’m not a Slav, btw). But in it’s place. Alternativing parts from week to week is one thing, having an entire liturgy in a foreign language with English phonetic transcription is another.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yet, if you attend a liturgy at a Greek Orthodox Church here in the States, they will do it Greek.

I talked about that in the coffee hour discussion.

Many of the Church documents are in Latin… If they can write and read fluently in Latin, they can obviously speak it.

The CCC was first written in French, because that is the language they could write and read fluently in. Only then was it put in Latin, and I’ve been told by those who can speak Latin fluently, that the French Vorlage’s influence is not in my imagination.

And if you study or speak Italian, it is very close to Latin.

And if you study or speak English, it is very close to German. Also konnen wir auf Deutsch schreiben, nicht wahr?

Why is there something wrong? Can you please be more specific? There are many Catholic rites that do this - not just with Greek Orthodox - and they don’t seem to have a problem with it.

Not until they lose their youth, and everyone left is older than God.

Even in Conservative Judaism, they don’t go around speaking Hebrew all over the place after their services, yet they embrace their traditional language.

Hebrew is more than a traditional language for Jews. Part of the problem is those pushing Latin from a liturgical language to a sacred language (like Hebrew, Arabic or Sanskrit). My “favorite” are those who quote something from the Bible in Latin. Why? It wasn’t written in it, and as far as we know, practically no one in the Bible (including btw, as far as we know, St. Peter) spoke it.

I don’t understand. You seem so adverse and negative towards the use of Latin. What has it done to you? What have you seen in a truly negative light that the use of Latin or other traditional languages for liturgy or service has apparently brought so much animosity towards using them? Has it hurt people spiritually?

Yes.

Do you see faiths that incorporate their traditional languages as less spiritual and not as deep in their faith and spirituality?

Often yes. When it doesn’t go beyond lip service.

Did it hurt you spiritually? If so, why?

No. Since I have some fluency in Latin, Greek, Slovanic, etc., they haven’t harmed me at all.

I ask because people don’t feel negatively about something unless they either have had a bad experience or if they were influenced by teachers, mentors or other people within their social network.

Or if they have seen an unnecessary stumbling block put in the way of others.

I also just want to figure out the thought processes of those who seem to have so much animosity towards this. It may help me understand better.

I know my experience is different because I grew up only with mass in the vernacular and not until I was an adult did I have attend a mass in Latin. I’ve had teachers, etc. prior talk it down, but I never listened. And when I began studying music, there was so much beautiful sacred music in Latin, it got me thinking that those teachers/mentors were either basing it on bad experiences or other influences. So, my experience has been a good one - and perhaps why I’m not adverse to Latin or other traditional languages, as well as the vernacular.

I’m not much for much of the “opera” liturgies: often when they are in a language I understand, I still can’t understand. That “clanging bell” problem that St. Paul writes about.

 

[Sarabande]

I talked about that in the coffee hour discussion.

You mentioned one line about that, unless I missed more. Can you please explain more in detail?

The CCC was first written in French, because that is the language they could write and read fluently in. Only then was it put in Latin, and I’ve been told by those who can speak Latin fluently, that the French Vorlage’s influence is not in my imagination.

But they still have fluency in the Latin in order to translate it. That doesn’t make a difference - at least to me. There is still a fluency.

And if you study or speak English, it is very close to German. Also konnen wir auf Deutsch schreiben, nicht wahr?

Yes, I knew that. I had to study German for my musical training and during my summer training in Salzburg.

German is not “Old English”, even though it has a relation to it. So of course we wouldn’t be writing or speaking in Deutsch. But many would say that Latin is like “Old Italian”. When you look at Old English, it can be understood for the most part. It may take a few times of reading and hearing, but a “fluency” will be achieved. The same with Italian/Latin. A similar experience wouldn’t happen between German and English as it isn’t Old English. So, I don’t agree with your idea on that.

Not until they lose their youth, and everyone left is older than God.

Please explain more. I know people who are in other Rites and are in their 20s, 30s and 40s and they don’t have a problem with using their traditional languages. I don’t consider that older than God.

Hebrew is more than a traditional language for Jews.

Please explain.

Part of the problem is those pushing Latin from a liturgical language to a sacred language (like Hebrew, Arabic or Sanskrit).

Ok, I have a little better understanding about why you have a negative aversion to it. But why is that so offensive to you? There may be people who truly feel a special sacred and traditional connection to Latin - maybe in the same way as you think of Hebrew being for the Jewish faith. Why is that wrong?

Yes.

Can you please expound on this more? How has it hurt people spiritually? What has caused the animosity towards it? It would help me understand your thought process. “Yes” hardly answers anything.

Often yes. When it doesn’t go beyond lip service.

The same can be said for just about anyone, whether or not they use the vernacular or their traditional language. We’d be kidding ourselves if we thought otherwise. I’ve met spiritually shallow people in all walks of life within the Catholic faith, and I didn’t see it more concentrated in one group of people. To say that, would be deluding myself in order to fit into my “belief box”, which is easy to fall into. But again, I probably haven’t had the same experiences as you, thus probably leaving me a little more open and out of the “belief box” - at least in this regard. (I can’t say for other aspects, though. )

No. Since I have some fluency in Latin, Greek, Slovanic, etc., they haven’t harmed me at all.

Then why are you sounding as if you are scared of it hurting you spiritually? Based on your answers above, I understand you as believing it hurts others spiritually, as they apparently are more shallow. But it sounds as if you have been hurt or are fearful of being hurt spiritually by its use. If I’m off base, please explain.

Or if they have seen an unnecessary stumbling block put in the way of others.

That would be considered a negative experience, especially if they had no one to really help and positively encourage them. And luckily, since we can have a vernacular mass and a person truly can’t get a full grasp of the Latin, they can still win out.

I’m not much for much of the “opera” liturgies: often when they are in a language I understand, I still can’t understand. That “clanging bell” problem that St. Paul writes about.

Chant and polyphony and most sacred choral motets are far from “opera”. And any good musician knows the different styles so that they aren’t singing like an opera singer. You save the “opera” voice for actual performances on the stage. But it is true you do get opera-wannabes sometimes. You sound like someone who doesn’t want music at all - since almost all music can be done in an operatic way. And that’s ok if you feel that way.

I’m truly sorry that you have had such a negative experience with all of this. I’m not being sarcastic or mean-spirited. Everything I wrote is well-meaning. You just sound so bitter against it and that is a horrible thing to carry around and have eat at you. In the past, I’ve been bitter about how much my generation missed with watered-down masses and kumbaya-like and broadwayish music. I’m passed it now through trying to use more love and focusing on my spiritual well-being. But you sound exactly how I’ve felt before, that’s why I’ve taken an interest in your psychology. I’ve learned that you cannot negate the feelings and experiences of another even as much as you disagree with them - and that is why I’m asking you so many questions with detailed explanations. I know you could not have had these beliefs and feelings without the experiences. God Bless.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You mentioned one line about that, unless I missed more. Can you please explain more in detail?

If you are “talking” to your God in one language, but then converse about your life with your society in another indicates code switching of the worst kind.

I’ve been to plenty of Churches where the Divine Liturgy and the coffee hour are in the same language (the DL being in a more elevated form, as it should be), and it wasn’t English. Not a problem: in fact it underlines that the code switching is a problem.

Maybe a more serious matter would illustrate:I’ve been to many Churches where the icons, etc. have the inscriptions in language x, but the “Donated by” (a problem, in and of itself) in English. Not going to make sure they get the Gospel message, but going to make sure we know who sponsered it.

Contributes to the mentality that God, Church, ethics, etc. is something we put in a box and take out once a week, rather than 24/7.

But they still have fluency in the Latin in order to translate it. That doesn’t make a difference - at least to me. There is still a fluency.

Not a fluency that should induce it to be a practice of the Faithful at large, in particular in their own prayer life.

German is not “Old English”, … So, I don’t agree with your idea on that.

I was only commenting on the similarity, not the genetic connection.

Please explain more. I know people who are in other Rites and are in their 20s, 30s and 40s and they don’t have a problem with using their traditional languages. I don’t consider that older than God.

Are they the same people?

I’ve been to parishes where there is a constant influx of immigrants, where retention of the language makes more sense. But I’ve also seen that in a lot of these parishes there is a turnover, thankfully often to more English friendly parishes, but often, unfortunately to Protestantism, or worse, irreligion.

When a parish I attended switched to partial English, someone brought up about the “old Russian hymns.” One member, the oldest in the parish and whose father was one of the founders said “Well, I’m an old Russian, and I want the English. I don’t care what my grandfather sang. I care about what my grandchildren wil be singing.”

Please explain.

Jewish Tradition holds it as a sacred language: the one that God speaks. It is not a liturgical language, as Judaism holds Aramaic, for instance, even though part of the Tanakh is in Aramaic.

Ok, I have a little better understanding about why you have a negative aversion to it. But why is that so offensive to you? There may be people who truly feel a special sacred and traditional connection to Latin - maybe in the same way as you think of Hebrew being for the Jewish faith. Why is that wrong?

Stunts their thinking. Perhaps the worst example is Muslims who can recite the whole Quran by heart in Arabic and don’t know a thing they just said, and don’t know a thing about Islam except that it is “right.”

Learning by rote is not learning, just the first step. Christians are not to be raised on a milk diet. They need meat.

Can you please expound on this more? How has it hurt people spiritually? What has caused the animosity towards it? It would help me understand your thought process. “Yes” hardly answers anything.

As one example I gave (I can give more) of people, when they find out what the thing is they have been hearing all these years actually means, they reject it. That is, after being left to their own divices to “figure” out their own theology, because the Church’s theology, which they supposedly have been “exposed” to, was locked up in a language they didn’t understand. While I am thinking about it, that may have had a hand in the chaos that came about Vatican II: people being confronted, for the first time, with what they should believe,

The same can be said for just about anyone, whether or not they use the vernacular or their traditional language. We’d be kidding ourselves if we thought otherwise. I’ve met spiritually shallow people in all walks of life within the Catholic faith, and I didn’t see it more concentrated in one group of people. To say that, would be deluding myself in order to fit into my “belief box”, which is easy to fall into. But again, I probably haven’t had the same experiences as you, thus probably leaving me a little more open and out of the “belief box” - at least in this regard. (I can’t say for other aspects, though. )

But if your lip service is even Greek to you, how shallow is that?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Then why are you sounding as if you are scared of it hurting you spiritually? Based on your answers above, I understand you as believing it hurts others spiritually, as they apparently are more shallow. But it sounds as if you have been hurt or are fearful of being hurt spiritually by its use. If I’m off base, please explain.

I am my brother’s keeper. No other concern.

That would be considered a negative experience, especially if they had no one to really help and positively encourage them. And luckily, since we can have a vernacular mass and a person truly can’t get a full grasp of the Latin, they can still win out.

I have no problem with a “mixed” liturgy, in particular as I have seen that this works best, and has a long tradition behind it: the Kyrie eleison wasn’t translated in the Latin mass.

I remember once a colleague of mine in University told me she loved the Pange Linga, but didn’t know what a word of it meant. I gave her the translation used by the Western Rite Orthodox.

Chant and polyphony and most sacred choral motets are far from “opera”. And any good musician knows the different styles so that they aren’t singing like an opera singer. You save the “opera” voice for actual performances on the stage. But it is true you do get opera-wannabes sometimes. You sound like someone who doesn’t want music at all - since almost all music can be done in an operatic way. And that’s ok if you feel that way.

Actually, no it wouldn’t be OK. The services should be sung, not said.

I’m truly sorry that you have had such a negative experience with all of this. I’m not being sarcastic or mean-spirited. Everything I wrote is well-meaning. You just sound so bitter against it and that is a horrible thing to carry around and have eat at you. In the past, I’ve been bitter about how much my generation missed with watered-down masses and kumbaya-like and broadwayish music. I’m passed it now through trying to use more love and focusing on my spiritual well-being. But you sound exactly how I’ve felt before, that’s why I’ve taken an interest in your psychology. I’ve learned that you cannot negate the feelings and experiences of another even as much as you disagree with them - and that is why I’m asking you so many questions with detailed explanations. I know you could not have had these beliefs and feelings without the experiences. God Bless.

Myself personally, I have no bitter memories on this issue. I was raised Protestant where everything was in English, and have never been a parishoner where I didn’t understand the language. I have been a visitor, e.g. in Finland and at Albanian parishs where I didn’t understand the language, but that wasn’t a problem, I can follow the service. Just an observer of problems. I will say, for instance, that I was quite pleased that the poll on the choice of TLM in English over NO in Latin was (unamiously?) overwhelming in favor of the former, showing no misplaced priorities.

 

[Sarabande]

If you are “talking” to your God in one language, but then converse about your life with your society in another indicates code switching of the worst kind…

(edited for brevity)

Ok, I can see now your way of thinking and why the use of Latin bothers you. I totally don’t agree with it, as I don’t like to generalize that my one belief is a one size fits all, but I understand your position.

Contributes to the mentality that God, Church, ethics, etc. is something we put in a box and take out once a week, rather than 24/7.

For some, this may be true, but it would be generalizing to say we know what is in the hearts and minds of all others who do this based on what we think we would do and assume that others would do the same.

I was only commenting on the similarity, not the genetic connection.

Your comment and belief on that, though, held no water because of the fact that German and English was just that - only a similarity and a “foreign relation” in terms of the evolution of languages. So, for obvious reasons it would be more difficult to comprehend German as an English speaker and vice versa. It is different with Latin and Italian and I explained it in my other post.

Are they the same people?

My point with all of this is to show that one cannot generalize. I apparently have had different experiences with this as you. I cannot negate what you observed and you cannot negate what I have experienced as well.

I’ve been to parishes where there is a constant influx of immigrants, where retention of the language makes more sense… (edited)

Again, it doesn’t mean that it occurs at all parishes. Because it has occurred, that is a problem, of course. The same can happen with English-speaking parishes or any parish that works in the vernacular. My generation is a product of that, where many of the Catholics I went to schools with in Catholic school, don’t care much about their faith. These parishes where we attended put a lot of work in the youth, but for many it still didn’t work. I dug deeper into my faith when I was college, although I always had an innate, intangible knowledge of the beauty of being Catholic. I can’t explain it. But if I depended on my parish for the furthering of my faith, it wouldn’t have gone too far. It would have stayed watered-down.

I know there are parishes which probably had more success with their youth, but my example above is again to show that we can’t generalize and assume the worst.

One member, the oldest in the parish and whose father was one of the founders said “Well, I’m an old Russian, and I want the English. I don’t care what my grandfather sang. I care about what my grandchildren wil be singing.”

That's his one opinion and it's good that he cared about the future generations.  Nothing wrong, though, with a mix of the two.   I would have gladly appreciated that as a child if we were given that. I've always hated it when they assumed that since we were children we would want something specific.  It was rather insulting.

Jewish Tradition holds it as a sacred language: the one that God speaks. It is not a liturgical language, as Judaism holds Aramaic, for instance, even though part of the Tanakh is in Aramaic.

Thank you. I see your point more clearly here.

Stunts their thinking…(edited for brevity)… Learning by rote is not learning, just the first step. Christians are not to be raised on a milk diet. They need meat.

If they learn by rote without any thought to the meaning, of course it would stunt their thinking. The teaching doesn’t have to be that way, though Latin used to be offered in Catholic schools. In my city they offer Latin classes at Catholic culture societies and of course at our universities. But again, we are generalizing. I agree with you that rote learning doesn’t give enough to the depth of their spirituality. They have to go further with it. But just because some may learn like this it doesn’t mean that all are like this and have a shallow spirituality. We can say that it does or doesn’t happen to some based on our own experiences, but we can’t generalize.

As one example I gave (I can give more) of people, when they find out what the thing is they have been hearing all these years actually means, they reject it…(edited)… that may have had a hand in the chaos that came about Vatican II: people being confronted, for the first time, with what they should believe.

This example helped me figure your psyche regarding this a bit more. Thanks. And, yes, that theory could have been a factor for some people, as I believe there were a number of factors.

But if your lip service is even Greek to you, how shallow is that?

I wasn’t talking about lip service to my faith and spirituality. On the contrary, I know that my spirituality is deep having been working on it for many years. But I’m also humble enough to know that some aspects of me could even go deeper. It’s not shallow, but not good enough for me. Almost everyone has a “belief box” though - you, me, the guy next to us, etc. For some aspects it’s easier to not fall into it. This question on Latin is one such for me. I’ve been raised in the vernacular and have no problem attending mass in both the vernacular and Latin. If the mass is right, I receive the same spiritual needs for it. To say that I don’t would be assuming.

 

[Sarabande]

I am my brother’s keeper. No other concern.

hmmm… ok.

I have no problem with a “mixed” liturgy, in particular as I have seen that this works best, and has a long tradition behind it: the Kyrie eleison wasn’t translated in the Latin mass.

Well, that’s good to know you don’t have a problem with that. Alright, I’m understanding your thought processes more.

I remember once a colleague of mine in University told me she loved the Pange Linga, but didn’t know what a word of it meant. I gave her the translation used by the Western Rite Orthodox.

Shame on her for not knowing and good for you for helping her. One thing I learned as a musician: “Prime le parole, dopa la musica”. First the words, then the music. I hold that true not just with my secular music, but with the sacred as well. I don’t learn anything without knowing the meaning and translation first. The music is beautiful, but if the singer doesn’t know what she’s saying, it means nothing. The two put together - it can transcend borders and boundaries. That’s why music and even music with words affect people of all backgrounds.

Actually, no it wouldn’t be OK. The services should be sung, not said.

I also believe the mass should be sung (chanted if possible - we have English chant antiphons and motets also mixed with Latin chant, polyphony and choral motets at our parish - none of it resembles “opera”). But I know some people don’t like any music at mass. I can understand that if all they get is hootnandy.

Myself personally, I have no bitter memories on this issue.

I’m glad you are not bitter. You came across that way, but it’s good to see that you’re not.

I have been a visitor, e.g. in Finland and at Albanian parishs where I didn’t understand the language, but that wasn’t a problem, I can follow the service.

Well that’s good. And there are people out there at these TLM parishes who have just as good understanding and love for their Latin mass. Their spirituality may grow deeper in this kind of environment whereas it may actually stagnate in others. I cannot assume either. It’s not being forced upon us to attend those masses. We still have our vernacular masses. But I will admit when I have been in other countries, it has been a comfort to see that they had a Latin NO so that I could better understand what was going on. I also got along fine when I couldn’t find one, but it was just a more helpful for me.

I will say, for instance, that I was quite pleased that the poll on the choice of TLM in English over NO in Latin was (unamiously?) overwhelming in favor of the former, showing no misplaced priorities.

I’m glad to see that you have your priorities in order as well regarding that poll. Thank you for sharing so much of your thoughts and answering my questions. I appreciate it. I have a much better sense of what you believe.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

(edited for brevity)

Ok, I can see now your way of thinking and why the use of Latin bothers you. I totally don’t agree with it, as I don’t like to generalize that my one belief is a one size fits all, but I understand your position.

For some, this may be true, but it would be generalizing to say we know what is in the hearts and minds of all others who do this based on what we think we would do and assume that others would do the same.

Your comment and belief on that, though, held no water because of the fact that German and English was just that - only a similarity and a “foreign relation” in terms of the evolution of languages. So, for obvious reasons it would be more difficult to comprehend German as an English speaker and vice versa. It is different with Latin and Italian and I explained it in my other post.

My point with all of this is to show that one cannot generalize. I apparently have had different experiences with this as you. I cannot negate what you observed and you cannot negate what I have experienced as well.

Again, it doesn’t mean that it occurs at all parishes. Because it has occurred, that is a problem, of course. The same can happen with English-speaking parishes or any parish that works in the vernacular. My generation is a product of that, where many of the Catholics I went to schools with in Catholic school, don’t care much about their faith. These parishes where we attended put a lot of work in the youth, but for many it still didn’t work. I dug deeper into my faith when I was college, although I always had an innate, intangible knowledge of the beauty of being Catholic. I can’t explain it. But if I depended on my parish for the furthering of my faith, it wouldn’t have gone too far. It would have stayed watered-down.

I know there are parishes which probably had more success with their youth, but my example above is again to show that we can’t generalize and assume the worst.

That's his one opinion and it's good that he cared about the future generations.  Nothing wrong, though, with a mix of the two.   I would have gladly appreciated that as a child if we were given that. I've always hated it when they assumed that since we were children we would want something specific.  It was rather insulting.

Thank you. I see your point more clearly here.

If they learn by rote without any thought to the meaning, of course it would stunt their thinking. The teaching doesn’t have to be that way, though Latin used to be offered in Catholic schools. In my city they offer Latin classes at Catholic culture societies and of course at our universities. But again, we are generalizing. I agree with you that rote learning doesn’t give enough to the depth of their spirituality. They have to go further with it. But just because some may learn like this it doesn’t mean that all are like this and have a shallow spirituality. We can say that it does or doesn’t happen to some based on our own experiences, but we can’t generalize.

This example helped me figure your psyche regarding this a bit more. Thanks. And, yes, that theory could have been a factor for some people, as I believe there were a number of factors.

I wasn’t talking about lip service to my faith and spirituality. On the contrary, I know that my spirituality is deep having been working on it for many years. But I’m also humble enough to know that some aspects of me could even go deeper. It’s not shallow, but not good enough for me. Almost everyone has a “belief box” though - you, me, the guy next to us, etc. For some aspects it’s easier to not fall into it. This question on Latin is one such for me. I’ve been raised in the vernacular and have no problem attending mass in both the vernacular and Latin. If the mass is right, I receive the same spiritual needs for it. To say that I don’t would be assuming.

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean “you” personally, especially as it doesn’t seem to apply in your case.

 

[Sarabande]

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean “you” personally, especially as it doesn’t seem to apply in your case.

Got it. Thanks. I did understand you incorrectly.

 

[Gara3987]

why is Latin so important? my wife is on the verge of becoming RC. I was born into the faith but have no experience with a Latin Mass and can’t provide any answers to her question of “why Latin since it is not the language of either the OT or the NT.” there’s the obvious, that Latin was the then *lingua franca *of the ancient world but in a universal sense, everyone spoke it; whereas today, its use is rather limited.

I’m sure this has been covered here before, so if you can just point to a thread or two.

thanks.

Well for one Latin is a dead language and is used only by the Roman Catholic Church. The Language is not really the important thing, The Mass needs to be said in the Proper form, with the Proper Matter, and the Priest has to have the proper intentions and faith. Proper form would be to keep all the divine traditions the same and have the proper prayers said. Performing the Mass as the Apostles did.

 

[mercygate]

Well for one Latin is a dead language and is used only by the Roman Catholic Church. The Language is not really the important thing, The Mass needs to be said in the Proper form, with the Proper Matter, and the Priest has to have the proper intentions and faith. Proper form would be to keep all the divine traditions the same and have the proper prayers said. Performing the Mass as the Apostles did.

One caveat about “performing the Mass as the Apostles did” is that the primitive forms do not clearly express the fully developed theology that would emerge over time. The Apostles’ Mass presumed understanding of the Real Presence but it was not until the Real Presence was challenged by heretical groups that the specific theology was articulated. The theology is reflected in the later liturgies.

 

[I_Believe]

I don’t want to hijack my own thread, but my curiosity makes me ask …

can anyone recommend a site with **audio of the Our Father in Latin? ** I say the Morning Office, and and I’d like to say that prayer in Latin. just once.

sanctamissa.org/en/tutorial/ordo-missae-5.html

just scroll down to below the notation, and move your cursor to the latin text and click

 

[Lhhs]

Latin is the official language of the Church. .

I think so, that Latin is the official language of the Church.

Why is it important? I know know that it is “important” Well, what do you mean by “important” I guess is a better question Knowing that will help us to comment.

 

[I_Believe]

Blessed Pope John XXIII wrote beautifully on the importance of Latin:

adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

I think so, that Latin is the official language of the Church.

Why is it important? I know know that it is “important” Well, what do you mean by “important” I guess is a better question Knowing that will help us to comment.

Read the Veterum Sapientia for a good explanation
adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

 

[PKinsale]

I think the biggest problem in this country is not Latin v. English (I prefer the former, BTW), but the awful translation we’ve been stuck with since Vatican II and the foot-dragging in bringing out the new translation.

That said, we also can blame our Catholic school administrators, who dropped Latin instruction so quickly and completely. Kids can be taught Latin easily in their youth, and should be.

 

[Frosty]

That said, we also can blame our Catholic school administrators, who dropped Latin instruction so quickly and completely. Kids can be taught Latin easily in their youth, and should be

.

I’ve seen remarks like this over and over on this forum and I’m not sure what to make of them. Is it your contention that before Vatican II all Catholic school children were taught Latin? Apart from learning by rote the Pater Noster, Ave Maria and the Glory Be? If so, that sure wasn’t the case where I grew up. I attended Catholic Schools from Kindergarten right through University. All my teachers were nuns and priests. This was back in the 1950’s and 60’s. There were no Latin classes taught until Grade 9 in High School. Even then, the classes were strictly an option as an extra language course . We could choose between Latin, French, Spanish or German. Latin was by far the least popular option. In Grade 9 we had 27 students in our Latin class. Each year the numbers dropped until by Grade 13 there were only six of us who had stuck it out for the whole five years. The Public High Schools offered the same options and had the same results as well. I once asked my Dad who had attended a private Catholic High School run by the Jesuits in the 1940’s if he had been required to study Latin. His reply was that it had only been compulsory in Grade 9 although one of his brothers who had gone to a minor seminary studied it throughout all the years he was there.
I guess what I am trying to say is that blaming Vatican II, and teachers and administators of Catholic Schools for dropping Latin from the curriculum isn’t altogether fair. They are not going to offer courses if there is little or no interest.

 

[PKinsale]

.

I’ve seen remarks like this over and over on this forum and I’m not sure what to make of them. Is it your contention that before Vatican II all Catholic school children were taught Latin? Apart from learning by rote the Pater Noster, Ave Maria and the Glory Be? If so, that sure wasn’t the case where I grew up. I attended Catholic Schools from Kindergarten right through University. All my teachers were nuns and priests. This was back in the 1950’s and 60’s. There were no Latin classes taught until Grade 9 in High School. Even then, the classes were strictly an option as an extra language course . We could choose between Latin, French, Spanish or German. Latin was by far the least popular option. In Grade 9 we had 27 students in our Latin class. Each year the numbers dropped until by Grade 13 there were only six of us who had stuck it out for the whole five years. The Public High Schools offered the same options and had the same results as well. I once asked my Dad who had attended a private Catholic High School run by the Jesuits in the 1940’s if he had been required to study Latin. His reply was that it had only been compulsory in Grade 9 although one of his brothers who had gone to a minor seminary studied it throughout all the years he was there.
I guess what I am trying to say is that blaming Vatican II, and teachers and administators of Catholic Schools for dropping Latin from the curriculum isn’t altogether fair. They are not going to offer courses if there is little or no interest.

I will grant you one point. The push toward utilitarianism probably started around WWI and was the beginning of the end for studying the classics.

That said, ask any kid if they want to study Math and they will probably reject it, too. Who said Latin had to be an elective?

One year of Latin can help anyone learn enough to find there way around a Latin Mass and a Latin/English Missal.

 

[frbruce]

Greetings All:

I have spent countless hours looking for the phonetic Latin translation to English of the Orde Missae of the Traditional Missale Romanum. Doe anyone have any links, book suggestions, videos, etc.

And would anyone know what the phonetic Latin to English would be for “Introibo ad altare Dei” (I will go unto the Altar of God).

Practicing the Mass said in phonetic Latin I find is a one method to become familiar with the syntax and basic pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin.

Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

God Bless,
Bruce:thankyou:

 

[ProVobis]

Greetings All:

I have spent countless hours looking for the phonetic Latin translation to English of the Orde Missae of the Traditional Missale Romanum. Doe anyone have any links, book suggestions, videos, etc.

And would anyone know what the phonetic Latin to English would be for “Introibo ad altare Dei” (I will go unto the Altar of God).

Practicing the Mass said in phonetic Latin I find is a one method to become familiar with the syntax and basic pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin.

Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

God Bless,
Bruce:thankyou:

This may help you a little, though CAVEAT it is extremely slow loading.

Curiously enough it skips the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar.

ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/12/07/05/19-20-13_0.pdf