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RKS89
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That’s not been my experience. Not all Jesuits share the views of a certain well-known Jesuit priest.
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jack63
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PiusOfTheCross
No worries…no offense taken. I appreciate the response…no doubt I’ll pray more. If anyone actually knew it was “me” considering this in the first place, the gasp would be pretty loud. Likely…I have a long way to go.
No worries…no offense taken. I appreciate the response…no doubt I’ll pray more. If anyone actually knew it was “me” considering this in the first place, the gasp would be pretty loud. Likely…I have a long way to go.
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PiusOfTheCross
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I most certainly agree! I know many good, righteous, and holy orthodox Jesuits. However, I’m not just generalizing because of James Martin, I know quite a few who align with his beliefs(and many diocesan priests for that matter)
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PiusOfTheCross
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I know what you mean! My priest was on Wall Street before he became a man of the cloth, and he had multiple commas on his paycheck! Anyone can change there lives to do what God desires of them, I will pray for you.
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JimR-OCDS
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The vow of poverty is to live according to the “spirit” of poverty.
It doesn’t mean living in destitution, but rather, not having a disordered attachment to material things.
Jim
It doesn’t mean living in destitution, but rather, not having a disordered attachment to material things.
Jim
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SuscipeMeDomine
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You might ask the same questions about getting married. What if you buy a house or other property with your new spouse and then you quit the marriage? Both marriage vows and religious vows are for life. One big difference I see with religious vows is that you are much better prepared to make them than it seems most people are for marriage vows.
A legal trust would apply only until you take vows. You wouldn’t be allowed to take a vow of poverty if you have your holdings in trust.
Here you go: Final Vows? What's That? | America Magazine
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nunsuch
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Frankly, I would much rather rely on the judgment of the Holy See on the reliability of the Jesuits than some anonymous poster on a website. They are an approved religious order and have been for centuries. There are problematic individuals everywhere (yeah, even on this website). But the Jesuits are okay because the Holy See says they are, not you. To say they are in “no way orthodox” is really unjustified–and actually wrong.
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jack63
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So for another tough uncomfortable question
More likely, if a Jesuit were to get married, he would basically become a normal diocesan priest…who would be upset that he sold his assets…and perhaps rightfully so. On the other hand a major professor at a Jesuit university might leave to get married, stay a priest, and take a very nice salary with him…deeply upsetting the priests and brothers in his former order…and they would be rightfully upset.
For Jesuits to say this like Rev. Michael Garanzini feels like fantasy or something that has not been thought out at all. At the same time he is basically advocating a massive change in his order. One of the side effects of this, is that leaves somebody discerning a vocation really confused (this may not be strong enough…utterly baffled)
https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/08/...ried-priests-would-be-healthy-for-the-church/
I agree that this is true for many Jesuits in terms of what they believe. My concern would that it would be very difficult to implement married priests within an order where men were taking a “vow of poverty”… essentially giving the financial control of their lives over to the organization as a whole. Has there ever been a single example of a religious order pulling such a social experiment off in world history?
More likely, if a Jesuit were to get married, he would basically become a normal diocesan priest…who would be upset that he sold his assets…and perhaps rightfully so. On the other hand a major professor at a Jesuit university might leave to get married, stay a priest, and take a very nice salary with him…deeply upsetting the priests and brothers in his former order…and they would be rightfully upset.
For Jesuits to say this like Rev. Michael Garanzini feels like fantasy or something that has not been thought out at all. At the same time he is basically advocating a massive change in his order. One of the side effects of this, is that leaves somebody discerning a vocation really confused (this may not be strong enough…utterly baffled)
https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/08/...ried-priests-would-be-healthy-for-the-church/
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SuscipeMeDomine
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Married priests doesn’t refer to Jesuits, it refers to diocesan priests.
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PiusOfTheCross
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I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, my lady, but I stand entirely by what I’ve said. Yes, the Holy See approves of the Jesuits, and the current Holy See may approve of the current common Jesuit beliefs, however this does not make them proper or orthodox. The abolition of the celibate discipline is unorthodox. Allowing the divorced and remarried to communicate is unorthodox. Receiving the homosexual, with his relations and all, is unorthodox. These things aren’t really debatable. As for my reliability, that is for you to discern, not I. I’m informing, not converting.
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PiusOfTheCross
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Ah, I understand.
The Jesuits wouldn’t be allowed to marry if the discipline was abolished. The religious orders would mirror those of the Eastern Rites. For example, the Eastern priest may get married, but a hieromonk(practically synonymous with a Latin Rite religious priest) may not. Hopefully that helps!
The Jesuits wouldn’t be allowed to marry if the discipline was abolished. The religious orders would mirror those of the Eastern Rites. For example, the Eastern priest may get married, but a hieromonk(practically synonymous with a Latin Rite religious priest) may not. Hopefully that helps!
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jack63
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PiusOfTheCross…yes that is helpful…what I don’t understand is why would any Jesuit propose the end of celibacy (or a relaxation of celibacy) when it wouldn’t apply to their order in part because of the vow of poverty?
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Curious11
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A judge orders you to sell the house unless an agreement is reached between the man and woman. And you could be married in such a way that you own what’s yours and same for your wife. You are not selling everything and depending on an authority to make a living, you get to keep your salary. I don’t see it being comparable
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nunsuch
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The “current” Holy See? So you are a “cafeteria Catholic (choosing what to respect and what not to respect),” or have somehow been granted the power to decide which Holy Father you choose to regard as having authority? Thank you, but I will rely on more reliable sources than an anonymous person on the internet who believes s/he is “more Catholic than the Pope.” And if you can provide ANYTHING in the way of an authoritative evidence that the Jesuit Order endorses the positions you allege they support, then I’m sure both the Holy Father and all the rest of us would be more than happy to consider it. Until then, you may want to be more careful with what you say and how you say it. Until then, you may want to withhold your calumnies.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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Not to mention the vow of obedience.
But why wouldn’t they talk about topics like priestly celibacy for the Church in general even if it doesn’t apply to them in particular. If we held CAF to the standard of only discussing things that directly affect the participants , most of the discussion here would disappear…unless there are a lot of pastors or bishops hiding behind our screen names.
But why wouldn’t they talk about topics like priestly celibacy for the Church in general even if it doesn’t apply to them in particular. If we held CAF to the standard of only discussing things that directly affect the participants , most of the discussion here would disappear…unless there are a lot of pastors or bishops hiding behind our screen names.
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jack63
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SuscipeMeDomine…you have a fair and legitimate point. The Jesuits advocating for a change to priestly celibacy may just want to have this healthy debate in hopes that it may make the catholic church stronger.
I know most of us are basically anonymous behind screen names. Anonymous or not, priestly celibacy is open for debate though. I just think it is a very fair question to ask the next high ranking Jesuit who advocates a change in priestly celibacy whether it would apply to his order. If so, how would this work in the context of their vow of obedience and the vow of poverty. It is just that I really doubt the answer is “no it will never apply to this order”. I think the true answer would be “GC37”. My guess is that if latin rite starts allowing married men in Brazil to be ordained as priests mirroring the eastern rite, the Jesuits will discuss this in their next general congregation.
I know most of us are basically anonymous behind screen names. Anonymous or not, priestly celibacy is open for debate though. I just think it is a very fair question to ask the next high ranking Jesuit who advocates a change in priestly celibacy whether it would apply to his order. If so, how would this work in the context of their vow of obedience and the vow of poverty. It is just that I really doubt the answer is “no it will never apply to this order”. I think the true answer would be “GC37”. My guess is that if latin rite starts allowing married men in Brazil to be ordained as priests mirroring the eastern rite, the Jesuits will discuss this in their next general congregation.
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PiusOfTheCross
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Sorry for the late reply, my lady! I didn’t see your comment until now. When I stated “current Holy See” I meant that the current Holy See tends to be more progressive, while past Holy Sees would be outraged at many things of this day. Thank you for your concern for my statements, though. Also, I don’t believe I’m more ‘Catholic than the Pope’. That’s quite a derogatory statement for you to say about me. I will pray for you due to the large amount of negative and heartful comments you’ve made, and if you would like to reply with a comment that has substance I would be glad to discuss!
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jack63
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For whatever it is worth, as I struggled with this conversation…which has been very helpful to me…this got the closest to what I am struggling with. It is put very well.
As far as I can see, the Jesuits primary mission is to be educators and researchers. They used to be missionaries…I would say the greatest missionaries in world history, but that seems to be secondary as their mission at this point. Inherent in the need to be a religious order of educators, is the need for highly educated members. Education costs a great deal, and as I’ve looked through the list of Jesuit novitiates and their backgrounds, many are highly educated with advanced graduate degrees. Often parents are paying for this education with expectations…like grandchildren. In some ways real estate or inheritance are besides the main point. Honestly, I can always give it to somebody else or another worthy organization, or have a parent give the money to somebody else or another family member. The core issue for me is that I would struggle with whether my “educational wealth” is even mine to give in the first place if I couldn’t marry.
So in the issue is that indirectly the vow of poverty does touch the educational wealth. The vow of poverty and the priestly celibacy are inextricably linked.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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The Jesuits still view themselves as missionaries. They don’t simply go from one assignment to another, they are missioned to do a particular thing in a particular place. I think they would say that education is a major form of missionary work.
And they provide what you need to do the job you’re being asked to do. For some, that means an advanced degree which they pay for. There may be other orders that put less of a premium on education, but certainly s number of them value education and provide it. I guess I don’t understand what other choice there is. If you need people with doctorates to teach at the college level, you can’t just want for them to show up. By the same token, if you had an order that specialized in health care you would need to send people to medical school, nursing school, or whatever other specialized training they would need.
And they provide what you need to do the job you’re being asked to do. For some, that means an advanced degree which they pay for. There may be other orders that put less of a premium on education, but certainly s number of them value education and provide it. I guess I don’t understand what other choice there is. If you need people with doctorates to teach at the college level, you can’t just want for them to show up. By the same token, if you had an order that specialized in health care you would need to send people to medical school, nursing school, or whatever other specialized training they would need.
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jack63
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Huh!?..well that would explain a lot. I remember a homily where a Jesuit priests started talking about the difficulties of his research. A month or so later I went up to this priest at a church event and tried to make conversation about his homily. I’ve been there. I could commiserate. I do research too. However, I was struck by the conversation going nowhere. Honestly, it was not unlike a 100 other conversations I’ve had with other grad students and post-docs. Perhaps part of the issue was that I saw my work as my profession, and he saw it as much more than that.
By the way, rarely does a student pay for a PhD. Occasionally, a student may pay for 1 semester of a PhD before he is fully funded with a stipend and tuition waiver. Students will pay for masters degrees all the time. As I looked through the background of the Jesuit Novitiates, many had masters degrees, and about 95% had bachelors degrees. The Jesuit Priests at my Parish who are pursing PhDs are most likely getting stipends on the order of $20K to $30K which are going to the parish. A few of the Novitiates did have PhDs though.
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