Question about the Josephite marriage

[Patri]

Do people still marry this way? Of what use is it in our modern society? I understand it is a testimony just wondering if married people are encouraged to have children, where it fits.

 

[MNathaniel]

As far as I know, this has never been a widespread practice. It’s always been super rare.

The only specific example I can even think of is Louis and Zelie Martin in the 1800s, who married intending to live continently as brother and sister… and their spiritual director urged them to reconsider, so they ended up having 9 children, the surviving 5 of whom all became nuns (one of them the youngest Doctor of the Church and very popular saint, Thérèse of Lisieux)!

 

[Patri]

Thanks, but do you know the reason behind it? The kind of testimony behind being married and celibate?

 

[redcatholic]

You will most likely never in your life meet someone in person who has this marriage.

 

[MNathaniel]

Thanks, but do you know the reason behind it? The kind of testimony behind being married and celibate?

Honestly, I don’t.

I’ll have to leave this one for someone more knowledgeable than myself to answer.

Clearly there’s some holy instinct involved, in at least some cases and contexts. (E.g. Mary and Joseph, and the initial decision made by Louis and Zelie.)

But even in the case of the very holy Louis and Zelie (both now canonized saints), their own confessor disagreed with them and urged them to engage in normal marital relations, and God blessed their marital relations with great fruit.

I’d guess that whatever the ‘good’ reasons are to both enter and continue in a Josephite marriage, they’re potentially contextual and rare.

 

[MNathaniel]

I’d also add, Mary and Joseph’s situation was really, really unique. The Holy Spirit had overshadowed Mary and she had become in a sense (and in a sense that didn’t negate her valid marriage to Joseph) the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the dwelling place of God Himself.

Tim Staples has a really good book about Mary (‘Behold Your Mother’) in which he goes into Jewish kingly court precedent reasons why the devout Joseph wouldn’t have even considered having sexual relations with Mary after the Holy Spirit impregnated her with the Son of God. Basically the King of Kings had established a procreative relationship with her that the humble Joseph wouldn’t presume to infringe upon. (While Joseph would still serve as her protector etc.)

I’m probably butchering the language, but maybe look into some resources from Tim Staples on this? At least regarding the super unique situation Joseph and Mary were in.

As to later (very rare) marriages in the Josephite image, I imagine I’d have to hear about each example case by case to consider why each couple decided that both marriage and celibacy was appropriate in their context. And I just honestly don’t know of such examples, personally.

 

[MNathaniel]

Last post and then I’ll leave it for others… My wild imagination is conjecturing:

Maybe a cultural context where a woman is at risk of extreme poverty or assault if she chooses to live alone as a consecrated virgin, but can be physically protected if technically ‘married’ to a similarly celibate man? So really just a cultural way for consecrated virgins to be protected from cultural consequences of lifelong celibacy, if the external trappings of a marriage enable the physical guardianship and economic security necessary to keep the woman, especially, safe? And this is maybe why we so rarely hear about this: because in most cultural contexts, women are still able to congregate in convents together, and be consecrated virgins in solidarity there. They don’t typically need to resort to the safety of pairing off with a single celibate man. Communities of same-sex consecrated virgins are much more common (probably for very good reason) than pairings of male-female consecrated virgins. I’d only expect to see the latter in an unusual cultural context where convents are impossible and female consecrated virgins living alone are at extreme risk.

 

[Patri]

This does make sense.

 

[Patri]

I understand Mary and Joseph’s, it is actually quite logical. Just wondering how that marriage works in present times, but true, it is not at all common.

 

[1ke]

Do people still marry this way?

There may be some people who do. It’s rare now, it was rare in the past.

Even back in the day it was only a very few people and it is always under spiritual direction.

And they didn’t always remain in such a marriage-- for example St Therese of Lisieux’s parents were originally in a Joesphite marriage.

 

[MNathaniel]

Well, according to some sociological studies, more than a few marriages (both Catholic and non-Catholic) end up this way. Sometimes by mutual agreement, sometimes not.

Citation?

And do you mean an actual Josephite marriage in which the spouses never consummated the union even once?

Or do you just mean a marriage which is consummated but eventually (for whatever reason) the spouses have less or no sex?

If you mean the latter, that’s not a Josephite marriage. That’s just a marriage where a couple stopped having sex.

 

[MNathaniel]

they just ended up that way–“sexless” And some seem quite okay with that

Sure, I doubt anyone objects to a married couple where the partners mutually decide (after a period during which they do have sex) to no longer have sex. Could be all sorts of reasons.

Just wouldn’t be the religious type of reason I think a question about Josephite marriage gets at, which is why I’m not expanding on it here.

 

[Pattylt]

I have a question that I hope doesn’t sound stupid!

How does the church allow a marriage that will remain celibate and with no children…or is that why a Josephine marriage exists…to allow a non sexual relationship marriage that otherwise wouldn’t be allowed?

I hope my question makes sense! Thanks.

 

[MNathaniel]

I hope someone will show up that actually knows an answer unlike me!

Haha.

I only know what I’ve already shared. And in the one concrete case I know by name (Sts. Louis and Zelie Martin) the Church (through their confessor) didn’t allow it, and they ended up having multiple children who all became nuns, including St. Thérèse.

If anyone knows of specific other cases where the Church actually allowed this, maybe an explanation is already out there as to why, in those specific cases, it was allowed.

 

[Saintphilomena]

The sexless marriages used to be much more common when Holy Mother Church allowed married men and women to part ways in order to join convents and monasteries. As long as their adult children were married off, or had been provided for in some way, Holy Mother Church allowed this, thats why you see and read SO much in the older saint records of married men and women joining orders. But after a certain time period, Holy Mother Church banned this practice. I think as a widow though, you may still enter a convent. There are saints who were married maybe by duress, or parental prodding, and with the permission of their new spouse, left or ran away to join orders and this was not really totally crazy back in the day.

Since the practice was outlawed you see less “sexless” marriages or apart marriages however every marriage has its times of celibacy and sometimes, it can go on many years say if the couple are elderly, or if one suffers a stroke or in the hospital or otherwise unable even a young person can go into a coma Ive seen that to and the spouse refuses to leave. This can go on a long long time.

We never know what will happen. Ask the wives of soldiers and fisherman, who are gone many months. This seems more of a single life in many ways. God calls us to so many facets of the married life. I think we have this false fantasy that marriage is a free ride or a picnic in the park where the husband is home at 6pm and the wife has dinner on the table. In reality marriage is a constant almost battle of change. As we ourselves change and have so many wants and needs, add another in the mix and all their wants and needs and expect a LOT of simple resignation to our own will and forming a child like charity.

 

[Pattylt]

The sexless marriages

I realize there are many sexless marriages due to circumstances, illness, accidents, etc. But that’s not what a Josephine marriage is. It is assumed the couple will live as husband and wife except not have sex even though they are capable. Or are Josephine marriages allowed when one of the couple is incapable of sexual relations? In capability is a not permitted in a regular Catholic marriage so is this a way to get around it?

I hope I’m not being out of bounds asking…I’m just curious to understand this.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Do people still marry this way?

Probably some do. It’s their own private business, so I wouldn’t expect those who do it to be announcing it to the world.

Of what use is it in our modern society?

You would have to ask the people who are in such a marriage, as obviously it has personal value to them.
I would say at the very least it has the value of showing that life doesn’t have to revolve around sex.

I understand it is a testimony

?? Like I said, it’s generally a private matter that wouldn’t be discussed with anyone except spiritual directors and maybe some super-close friends/ relatives. It’s not a “testimony”, people don’t get up in prayer meeting and make a speech about how they and their spouse have a Josephite marriage.

just wondering if married people are encouraged to have children, where it fits.

Such encouragement is up to their spiritual director. Again, it’s private.
Having marital sex also doesn’t guarantee in any way that children will automatically result.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I genuinely don’t understand how a marriage in which you agree to never have sex is distinct from having a best friend/roommate.

Obviously, there are some marriages where sex isn’t really a primary concern, but for a marriage to have no sexual element at all strikes me as kind of a contradiction, like a square circle.

But anyway, it’s really really rare and probably always has been.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Or are Josephine marriages allowed when one of the couple is incapable of sexual relations? In capability is a not permitted in a regular Catholic marriage so is this a way to get around it?

I don’t think the Church will marry people, not even in a Josephite way, if one or both are absolutely physically incapable of having intercourse.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I genuinely don’t understand how a marriage in which you agree to never have sex is distinct from having a best friend/roommate.

Obviously, there are some marriages where sex isn’t really a primary concern, but for a marriage to have no sexual element at all strikes me as kind of a contradiction, like a square circle.

That’s a big leap for you to assume that “agree to never have sex” means “no sexual element at all”.

It’s highly likely that some Josephite couples may have felt sexual desire and simply chose not to act on it for whatever reason.

Also, the fact that a lot of people are not going to understand this type of arrangement is one reason why people would generally keep it to themselves if they were doing it.