Question about the Letter of James

[ChiFaithful]

I’m confused about the Protestant view of Sola Scriptura, the Letter of James, and being saved by faith alone. Do protestants have a response to believing that scripture is the only true source, thus believing in the Letter of James? If so, how can they say that they are saved by faith alone, when it clearly doesn’t say that?

Once thing: please be polite in your response. I am not trying to bash anyone with this question, I just don’t understand that logic. I have seen that there are times when topics like this get out of hand, and many posters try to out-do the other. I really would just like an answer to the question and possibly some friendly discussion. Thanks in advance.

 

[Lazerlike42]

The Protestant response to this verse is rarely satisfying. When I was a Protestant, I did not tend to buy into the typical answer to this question either.

The typical method is to say that “true faith” always results in works. According to this idea, faith alone is necessary for salvation, but it must be this “true faith” that always produces works. In other words, if you really believe in Christ, you will automatically do works. Note that this does not mean, according to those who give this arguement, that true faith is one that cooperates with Christ’s grace. This idea rules out the idea that a person chooses to cooperate with grace and do works, It just somehow means that works always come from some “true” faith.

One Protestant Bible commentary I have (published by Nelson) puts it this way: “Salvation is not accomplished through the cooperation of faith and works, but faith finds its channel of expression in works.” In other words, if you really have faith you’ll just love Jesus so much that you won’t be able to help doing works. This thinking leads to the idea that a person who has problems with the sin of selfishness or laziness and decides not to do a work doesn’t really have faith in Christ, which is a ridiculous idea. Think about your life. Do you have faith in Christ? Have you ever had a situation where there was work you could do but you chose not to? If so, then this idea means you don’t really have faith.

 

[ChiFaithful]

I sort-of see the logic there, but it specifically says that Abraham was “justified by works and not by faith alone.” I just don’t see the confusion there.

Plus, what about verses Ch.5 Vs.16-18? Why would they not “confess sins to one another?”

 

[Verbum]

Hi Chi,

Catholics believe that we are justified through faith and baptism. We do not earn this “through works” but through the sheer mercy of God. Protestants equally believe this. The problem is that they confuse justification and salvation. We know that salvation is persevering until death.

Through baptism we are made adopted children of God and heirs to heaven. If we live in conformity with this, we shall produce good works, such as Jesus prescribed ; “Whatever you do to the least of these…”. Protestants often state that good works are the “result” of being saved, almost like you can’t help yourself.

Where it gets dicey is when Catholics state that they can earn “merits” through good works. Protestants interpret this as meaning that we can “earn” salvation. Actually, Catholic teaching is that God accepts that the merits of Jesus Christ should be applied to our good works, so that our heavenly bliss can be “enhanced”. But it is through baptism that we are justified.

Catholics are in error when they interpret St.James as meaning that we are justified through good works. He just says that, without good works our faith is dead, just like Abraham first believed when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac, but he followed through getting ready to actually do the sacrifice.

Verbum

 

[Jeanette_L]

ChiFaithful:

I sort-of see the logic there, but it specifically says that Abraham was “justified by works and not by faith alone.” I just don’t see the confusion there.

Plus, what about verses Ch.5 Vs.16-18? Why would they not “confess sins to one another?”

You will never get a straight or satisfying answer about faith and works. You immediately get taken to other verses that seem to lead you in a different direction, then all is forgotten, as if the problem was miraculously solved. These were always burdensome for me, like an annoying pebble in your shoe, no matter how hard you shake it, you can’t get rick of that awful feeling!

I never, ever in my 40 years of Evangelicalism, heard a teaching on confessing sins to one another. Occasionally in conversation among other Christians, we would surmise that it meant that we needed to have a good Christian friend or mentor to hold us accountable in our faith walk. That was pretty much it.

That’s why, after awhile, you just learn to avoid problem scripture passages, and sometimes whole books of the Bible, just to not cause theological discomfort for yourself. Doesn’t work for forever, though!

Jeanette

 

[Lazerlike42]

I would reccomend these, from the council of trent decree on Justification:

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

In other words, your works do help you to attain salvation, but only when combined with God’s grace.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

In other words, faith involves a lot more than simply trusting in and believing in Christ. (It also includes the good work of obedience, for instance)

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

In other words, you can keep the commandments and you must keep the commandments and be obedient to Christ.

 

[MaxBecher]

Another response that I heard when talking to Protestants about James is that he is refering to justification before men, not God. I didn’t know how to reply at the time, but since then (with Tim Staples’ help) I have realized that such an interpretation really doesn’t make sense. Why would James care about justification before men? Why would he be speaking so strongly about something that really doesn’t matter? Also, he says in 2:14 (I think) “Can that faith save him” so he is clearly talking about justification before God in the later verses. Lastly, the example he uses, Abraham, is not an instance of justification before men. Abraham was justified before God when he was willing to offer up his son.

Max

 

[Eireann]

I read that the word “alone” was added by Martin Luther I don’t think you’ll find it in a Catholic approved Bible. (faith alone)
He supposidly died cursing the Pope, he seems to have went off the rails a bit.

 

[ChiFaithful]

Eireann:

I read that the word “alone” was added by Martin Luther I don’t think you’ll find it in a Catholic approved Bible. (faith alone)

Thanks for your responses everyone.

One thing on the above: If the Bible was authored with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, do Protestents believe that God came to Luther to add the word alone to the Bible? Why does he have the right to do that? I understand translating the Bible to other languages, but adding a word isn’t translating.

 

[Eireann]

ChiFaithful:

Thanks for your responses everyone.

One thing on the above: If the Bible was authored with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, do Protestents believe that God came to Luther to add the word alone to the Bible? Why does he have the right to do that? I understand translating the Bible to other languages, but adding a word isn’t translating.

I’m not well up on Luther, but just recently read he added the word “alone” somebody more informed than me may know better.

The web with all it’s sites is ok, but we have to be careful what sites we read, some are very clever and lead you right into where you almost think they’re Catholic.

Then lights start to flash and bells ring, but some are hard to decipher.

 

[Eireann]

ChiFaithful:

Thanks for your responses everyone.

One thing on the above: If the Bible was authored with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, do Protestents believe that God came to Luther to add the word alone to the Bible? Why does he have the right to do that? I understand translating the Bible to other languages, but adding a word isn’t translating.

You may find this site interesting, although I tried not to fall into the trap of which I told you, if you find anything odd let me know, like I said we have to be careful what sites we read.

Nonetheless, Martin Luther fixed upon this statement by St. Paul, Rom 3:28 “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law,” and imagined that we can be saved by faith alone, without works. But Luther could not find Scriptural authority for faith alone; the only place in Scripture where faith alone appears is, Jas 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” So when translating the Latin Vulgate Bible into German, at Romans 3:28, Luther brazenly falsified the teaching by adding the word alone so it read “faith alone apart from works of law.” But those clarifying words, “of law” were still in there. What did St. Paul mean by “works of law?”

Source

Vatican document on justification

 

[deb1]

ChiFaithful:

Thanks for your responses everyone.

One thing on the above: If the Bible was authored with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, do Protestants believe that God came to Luther to add the word alone to the Bible? Why does he have the right to do that? I understand translating the Bible to other languages, but adding a word isn’t translating.

Until I came to this forum, I had never heard that Luther added the word alone to any verse.:nope:

I agree with the poster who said that if you brought up a troubling verse then you were immediately pointed toward other less troubling verses. This led to confusion, because the bible seemed to be contradicting itself, sometimes in the same epistles, yet I was being told that the bible couldn’t contradict itself.

When you add in the fact that some Protestants are told that if they don’t understand the bible in the manner that their church does then they either don’t have or aren’t listening to the Holy Spirit, you get a person who is under a lot of pressure to simply go along with the other members of his particular church. This can be extremely troubling because it makes one doubt their salvation.

 

[steve99]

Eireann:

I read that the word “alone” was added by Martin Luther I don’t think you’ll find it in a Catholic approved Bible. (faith alone)
He supposidly died cursing the Pope, he seems to have went off the rails a bit.

I also head that Luther tried ro remove James (& other epistles) from his translation of the Bible, by putting them at the back, seperated by blank pages and not listing them in the index.

He also reputedly called “James an epistle of straw”. Presumably because it contradicted his “faith alone” doctrine

 

[Eireann]

steve99:

He also reputedly called “James an epistle of straw”. Presumably because it contradicted his “faith alone” doctrine

Thanks for the insight, if it’s true I’m not surprised he wanted to hide James, probably because of this.

James 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

This part makes perfect sense to me as I’ll explain, about 12 years ago at our local Passionist Chapel, a Priest said after the Gospel.

“It’s not much good going to Africa and preaching about faith and believing in Jesus when they don’t even have food in their stomach” (not the exact words, it’s been awhile) who would want to hear it ? You need to look after their physical needs as well as their spiritual".

Imagine preaching to people who don’t even have the strength to acknowledge your even there ?

 

[Lazerlike42]

He wished, at one point, to remove James, Hebrews, Revelation, and 2nd Peter.

 

[Thal59]

ChiFaithful:

I’m confused about the Protestant view of Sola Scriptura, the Letter of James, and being saved by faith alone. Do protestants have a response to believing that scripture is the only true source, thus believing in the Letter of James? If so, how can they say that they are saved by faith alone, when it clearly doesn’t say that?

Once thing: please be polite in your response. I am not trying to bash anyone with this question, I just don’t understand that logic. I have seen that there are times when topics like this get out of hand, and many posters try to out-do the other. I really would just like an answer to the question and possibly some friendly discussion. Thanks in advance.

You have pointed out one of the obvious fallacies of Protestantism. Protestants do have a response and a reason for believing that scripture is the only true source, but it is one out of necessity not reason. Once they left the “authorized” church, they had to have something to draw authority from. The only thing that could even come close was the written word of God. In other words, they left the “incarnate” word of God… (Jesus truly present in the Eucharist) and settled for the written word of God.

But look at it this way. If the spirit of the perfect God momentarily becomes one with the imperfect spirit of a man, what would be the result? There are three possibilities.

1. No effect is felt by either and the status quo is mainatined.
2. The fallen nature of the man somehow diminishes or corrupts the perfect nature of God.
3. The perfect nature of God somehow elevates or improves the imperfect nature of the man.

When we participate in the Eucharist, it is the third possibility that occurs. We receive sanctifying grace which draws us up from our fallen state. How far, how long, or to what extent depends on us. When this happens, our selfish spirit begins to take on more Christ like virtues. We slowly become more tolerant, less selfish, more merciful, less angry etc. In other words, Christ’s attributes become manifest in us, and the most evident is charitability.

This is why charity, or good works, cannot be seperate from faith regarding salvation. We are not talking about the occasional act of charity. Even Al Capone did some humanitarian things in his life. We are talking about good works, charity, that proceeds from a grace filled heart and spirit that is the result of a “charitable nature” as opposed to a fallen man’s selfish nature. If you have a charitable nature at heart, it is only because the superior charitable nature of Christ is shining through you.

This is why James states that faith without works is dead in itself. “You say you have faith without works, but I through my faith will show you my faith.” Charitable good works, caused by the infusion of grace from the source of all pure charitability, is the tongue of flame over your head proclaiming that Christ abides here.

No good works via this endowed charitable nature, no infusion of grace by the Lord. No infusion of grace, and one’s faith is not reckoned as true, just, or living by God.

Thal59

 

[Lazerlike42]

Thal59:

You have pointed out one of the obvious fallacies of Protestantism. Protestants do have a response and a reason for believing that scripture is the only true source, but it is one out of necessity not reason. Once they left the “authorized” church, they had to have something to draw authority from. The only thing that could even come close was the written word of God. In other words, they left the “incarnate” word of God… (Jesus truly present in the Eucharist) and settled for the written word of God.

But look at it this way. If the spirit of the perfect God momentarily becomes one with the imperfect spirit of a man, what would be the result? There are three possibilities.

1. No effect is felt by either and the status quo is mainatined.
2. The fallen nature of the man somehow diminishes or corrupts the perfect nature of God.
3. The perfect nature of God somehow elevates or improves the imperfect nature of the man.

When we participate in the Eucharist, it is the third possibility that occurs. We receive sanctifying grace which draws us up from our fallen state. How far, how long, or to what extent depends on us. When this happens, our selfish spirit begins to take on more Christ like virtues. We slowly become more tolerant, less selfish, more merciful, less angry etc. In other words, Christ’s attributes become manifest in us, and the most evident is charitability.

This is why charity, or good works, cannot be seperate from faith regarding salvation. We are not talking about the occasional act of charity. Even Al Capone did some humanitarian things in his life. We are talking about good works, charity, that proceeds from a grace filled heart and spirit that is the result of a “charitable nature” as opposed to a fallen man’s selfish nature. If you have a charitable nature at heart, it is only because the superior charitable nature of Christ is shining through you.

This is why James states that faith without works is dead in itself. “You say you have faith without works, but I through my faith will show you my faith.” Charitable good works, caused by the infusion of grace from the source of all pure charitability, is the tongue of flame over your head proclaiming that Christ abides here.

No good works via this endowed charitable nature, no infusion of grace by the Lord. No infusion of grace, and one’s faith is not reckoned as true, just, or living by God.

Thal59

It is important to clarify something here. Charitable works are not caused by the infusion of grace in the same sense that kicking a ball causes it to move. Kicking a ball is the direct cause of its motion, and no other result is possible because it directly and formally causes the motion. Grace does not operate in the same manner. Grace does not so much cause charitable works as it does enable them to be undertaken. In other words, whereas when a ball is kicked it has no choice but to move, when we are infused with grace we still must make the choice to cooperate with the grace and to do the works. We must always cooperate with God’s grace of our own free will.

In this sense, good works are necessary. God’s grace enables and inspires us to do good works. If we do not do good works, we are not cooperating with His grace, not because we have not true faith, but because we choose through our free will to ignore the grace of God.

 

[BillyT92679]

From what I have gleaned, St. James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote his epistle because people were misinterpreting Romans to mean you didn’t need to do ANY good works at all, not practice any form of Charity, which is a repudiation of Our Lord’s own words in St. Matthew Chapter 25. Look at Romans… St. Paul was discussing WORKS OF THE LAW (Kashrut, circumcision, temple sacrifice et.al) which Our Lord abrogated with His Sacrifice on Calvary.

We aren’t saved by works… that’s works righteousness, and is not what we believe. We aren’t really saved by faith strictly either… it’s Sanctifying Grace from Our Lord, received through the Seven Sacraments “activiated” by His Redemptive Act, which requires an assent of faith and an outpouring of charity. We freely choose to accept or reject that Grace.

 

[Thal59]

Lazerlike42:

It is important to clarify something here. Charitable works are not caused by the infusion of grace in the same sense that kicking a ball causes it to move. Kicking a ball is the direct cause of its motion, and no other result is possible because it directly and formally causes the motion. Grace does not operate in the same manner. Grace does not so much cause charitable works as it does enable them to be undertaken. In other words, whereas when a ball is kicked it has no choice but to move, when we are infused with grace we still must make the choice to cooperate with the grace and to do the works. We must always cooperate with God’s grace of our own free will.

In this sense, good works are necessary. God’s grace enables and inspires us to do good works. If we do not do good works, we are not cooperating with His grace, not because we have not true faith, but because we choose through our free will to ignore the grace of God.

Absolutely true. This is the point that James made. If you say you have faith without works, your faith is dead in itself. Whether this is because your faith is not credited to you by God and therefore saving grace was not given, or because you chose not to cooperate with his grace, the result is the same.

If one has faith and works performed with pureness of motive from this “charitable nature” I mentioned earlier, one’s faith is credited.

If one has faith and no works, either because grace was not given or cooperated with, one’s faith is discredited.

Thal59

 

[ChiFaithful]

Great replies, everyone. Thanks!