Question about the Mass

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TamaraS

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Can someone answer this question for me? We (my family) moved across town and we were going to join the local parish. Everyone is very nice and welcoming, but the mass REALLY bothers me there. One thing I will mention ahead of time is that I live in the Des Moines area, and except for maybe a few exceptions, you have to be pretty accepting of certain things here. The laity are pretty involved- no homiles or anything like that, but more than what I’m used to. Anyway, I swear this priest doesn’t add water to the wine before consecration and when he holds up the host I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say “This is the Lamb of God…”. Instead it’s something like “We believe in Jesus…” Does anyone know if they can change that? And does any of this affect the validity af any or all of the mass? There are other things that bug me, but these two in particular stand out. I have a son that will be receiving First Communion in a couple of years, and I would not let us join the parish because I can’t stand the thought of my kids, or myself, not recieving a valid communion. Thanks in advance.
 
Just go to a TLM in the diocese and sleep well at night and avoid the confusion.
 
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TamaraS:
Can someone answer this question for me? We (my family) moved across town and we were going to join the local parish. Everyone is very nice and welcoming, but the mass REALLY bothers me there. One thing I will mention ahead of time is that I live in the Des Moines area, and except for maybe a few exceptions, you have to be pretty accepting of certain things here. The laity are pretty involved- no homiles or anything like that, but more than what I’m used to. Anyway, I swear this priest doesn’t add water to the wine before consecration and when he holds up the host I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say “This is the Lamb of God…”. Instead it’s something like “We believe in Jesus…” Does anyone know if they can change that? And does any of this affect the validity af any or all of the mass? There are other things that bug me, but these two in particular stand out. I have a son that will be receiving First Communion in a couple of years, and I would not let us join the parish because I can’t stand the thought of my kids, or myself, not recieving a valid communion. Thanks in advance.
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No, it doesn’t affect the validity of the Mass. It is a violation of the rubrics.
 
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TamaraS:
Can someone answer this question for me? We (my family) moved across town and we were going to join the local parish. Everyone is very nice and welcoming, but the mass REALLY bothers me there. One thing I will mention ahead of time is that I live in the Des Moines area, and except for maybe a few exceptions, you have to be pretty accepting of certain things here. The laity are pretty involved- no homiles or anything like that, but more than what I’m used to. Anyway, I swear this priest doesn’t add water to the wine before consecration and when he holds up the host I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say “This is the Lamb of God…”. Instead it’s something like “We believe in Jesus…” Does anyone know if they can change that? And does any of this affect the validity af any or all of the mass? There are other things that bug me, but these two in particular stand out. I have a son that will be receiving First Communion in a couple of years, and I would not let us join the parish because I can’t stand the thought of my kids, or myself, not recieving a valid communion. Thanks in advance.
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The things you mentioned do not effect the validity of the Mass. However they are incorrect. Water should be added as the proper prayer is said and the words printed in the book is what should be said at the elevation.
 
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TamaraS:
Anyway, I swear this priest doesn’t add water to the wine before consecration…
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he should add the water, but failing to do so doesn’t invalidate the consecration. It’s possible that he has mixed water before Mass, actually (even though he should do it at the offertory).
…and when he holds up the host I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say “This is the Lamb of God…”. Instead it’s something like “We believe in Jesus…” Does anyone know if they can change that?
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They aren’t supposed to change it, but it is done quite commonly. It has been explained to me by one priest friend that the idea is often to highlight some aspect about Christ, perhaps connecting it with something from the readings or feast of the day. Sometimes even quite orthodox Catholics recognize something of value in what they offer. Just try to overlook it, though, if it bothers you.
 
TamaraS,

The validity of the Sacraments are governed by 1) form 2) matter 3) intent. The first two are quite easy to distinguish the third however is not.

Water mixed with the wine pertains to the matter of this sacrament,it has nothing to do with rubrics.

Although we cannot give a definitive answer as to validity, of the Eucharist in this particular case, there does seem to be some doubt.

If indeed there was no water added the Sacrament cannot have been confected.

I would echo the suggestion to seek out a TLM and remove this doubt.

Pax
 
TamaraS,

The neccessary elements for the Sacrament of Eucharist

Matter

Wheaten Bread.

Fruit of the vine. Wine mixed with water.

Form

This is my body. (Bread)

This is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall beshed for you and for many*, to the remission of sins.

Intent

Pastors must intend to confect the Sacrament.

*The word many has been changed in the ICEL, American, version of the NOM. Thus the debate over the confection of the Sacrament of Eucharist in the NOM in the United States.

The Latin Version of the NOM has the words “pro multis” or “for many”, the ICEL version uses “pro omnibus” or “for all”.

Pax
 
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aspergesme:
TamaraS,

The neccessary elements for the Sacrament of Eucharist

Matter

Wheaten Bread.

Fruit of the vine. Wine mixed with water.

Form

This is my body. (Bread)

This is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall beshed for you and for many*, to the remission of sins.

Intent

Pastors must intend to confect the Sacrament.

*The word many has been changed in the ICEL, American, version of the NOM. Thus the debate over the confection of the Sacrament of Eucharist in the NOM in the United States.

The Latin Version of the NOM has the words “pro multis” or “for many”, the ICEL version uses “pro omnibus” or “for all”.

Pax
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The debate about pro multis having anything to do with the validity of the consecration is limited to a rather small element of people who border on legalism. The question has been asked and answered, but the answer doesn’t fit certain preconceived notions.
 
This certainly does affect the validity of the sacraments. If the preist does not add the water, then the sacrament was not completed as the Church does it. The council of Florence said this about the validity of sacraments.
All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected. Session 8 of The Council of Florence
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The same council said in the same session.
The third is the sacrament of the eucharist. Its matter is wheat bread and wine from the vine, to which a very little water is added before the consecration. Water is added thus because it is believed, in accordance with the testimony of holy fathers and doctors of the church manifested long ago in disputation, that the Lord himself instituted this sacrament in wine mixed with water, and because it befits the representation of the Lord’s passion. For the blessed pope Alexander, fifth after blessed Peter, says: "In the oblations of the sacraments which are offered to the Lord within the solemnities of masses, only bread and wine mixed with water are to be offered in sacrifice. There should not be offered in the chalice of the Lord either wine only or water only but both mixed together, because both blood and water are said to have flowed from Christ’s side’; also because it is fitting to signify the effect of this sacrament, which is the union of the Christian people with Christ. For, water signifies the people according to those words of the Apocalypse: many waters, many peoples. And Pope Julius, second after blessed Silvester, said: The chalice of the Lord, by a precept of the canons, should be offered mixed of wine and water, because we see that the people is understood in the water and the blood of Christ is manifested in the wine; hence when wine and water are mingled in the chalice, the people are made one with Christ and the mass of the faithful are linked and joined together with him in whom they believe…
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If water is not mixed with the wine, the sacrament is not valid.

And it also said this.
The form of this sacrament are the words of the Saviour with which he effected this sacrament. A priest speaking in the person of Christ effects this sacrament. For, in virtue of those words, the substance of bread is changed into the body of Christ and the substance of wine into his blood.
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If the words are changed, the sacrament is not confected.
 
Steve Green:
Just go to a TLM in the diocese and sleep well at night and avoid the confusion.
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actually find another Novus ordo mass and avoid going to a TLM

podo2005(hint)
 
podo2005, does that mean you are officially 15 years old?

I know it gets cold up there in Quebec, and then it gets warm, but the mosquitoes are almost as bad as the winters. Moose in your way during an evening drive, and American fishermen and hunters coming up north to spend American money.
Then, around, oh, early sept, it gets cold again.
I fished 45 kilometres from Quebec and in early sept. the average temp was 6-7 degrees c. It’s still 23-25 degrees back here at home.

Typically you should belong to a parish that is in your geographical area.
Hence, if you live closer to parish a, and farther from parish b, you should belong to parish a.
Regardless of abuses, perceived abuses, not liking the colour of the candles.
I grew up in places where you had one Catholic Church. You just lived and grew up. You loved the Eucharist. You knew what you there for, and kinda let the others slide off your back.
 
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mgy100:
podo2005, does that mean you are officially 15 years old?

I know it gets cold up there in Quebec, and then it gets warm, but the mosquitoes are almost as bad as the winters. Moose in your way during an evening drive, and American fishermen and hunters coming up north to spend American money.
Then, around, oh, early sept, it gets cold again.
I fished 45 kilometres from Quebec and in early sept. the average temp was 6-7 degrees c. It’s still 23-25 degrees back here at home.

Typically you should belong to a parish that is in your geographical area.
Hence, if you live closer to parish a, and farther from parish b, you should belong to parish a.
Regardless of abuses, perceived abuses, not liking the colour of the candles.
I grew up in places where you had one Catholic Church. You just lived and grew up. You loved the Eucharist. You knew what you there for, and kinda let the others slide off your back.
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I meant find the closest Novus Ordo
 
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Podo2005:
actually find another Novus ordo mass and avoid going to a TLM

podo2005(hint)
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Rather, find a reverent Mass of the current rite, or a licit indult TLM. What he should avoid are the illicit TLM’s.
 
Thank you everyone for your help.I am looking into this more, and I’ve prayed about it alot. I’m origionally from St. Louis, but I live in the Des Moines area and some things just seemed to be different here in general. I realize that you should just attend the church that is nearest to you, but there are many people around here who attend ones that are not closest to them. When we moved across town I just thought “okay, we’ll just go to the parish right by our house”. But for one, they don’t have any intentions to build a catholic school (which is important to me), not to mention the issues I have with the mass. I also realize that while the priest there may give “exciting” homilies, I am not there for that. I am there to recieve the Eucharist- a valid one. How can I know for sure trust that it is valid when the priest isn’t doing it in the proper way? Also, I think you can tell if someone else trully believes that the Eucharist is what it is, you can tell by the way it is handled and their mannerisms. The people there (including the priest) just blow through the second half of the mass, the priest barely allows us time to get half-way though saying our response when he starts saying what is next,they barely give you time to bow your head when receiving, there is absolutely no reverance. I agree that you cannot get hung up on everything and I can deal with the dull homilies and some of the smaller things that bother me-like playing loud music that we’re all supposed to sing along to while we’re all receiving communion. But I think that this is important enough that it needs to dealt with. There is another church that is also by us, but a little further than this one. I’ve spoken with the priest and we are joining that parish. They do have a school, but we are on a waiting list, so I am going to get involved with the RE program there, which I’m excited about. I don’t have any concerns about the mass and I am going to visit with one the priests there about my concerns. Everyone has been really helpful, thanks again!
 
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