Question about the Melkite Catholic Church

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I sorry if I seem dense, but I still don’t quite see it. I can understand Saint Paul and his helping to found the Church of Rome. But I’m quite confused on his role in the Petrine Ministry.
Anyway, do you think that this is an important enough issue to debate about? I am not sure if I do.
JMJ_coder,

Just as St. Paul helped build the Churches, including the Church of Rome, the role of the Pope of Rome is one of building up, rather than tearing down, the Churches of Christ. In other words, his role is to keep peace and communion among the particular Churches. Perhaps this is a way to understand the relation of St. Paul to the Pope of Rome in addition to the relation of St. Peter to the Pope of Rome (Petrine Ministry).
I can agree with the entirety of the Church helping to pass on the faith to the next generation. In the domestic Church (that is the family), one of the primary obligations of the parents is to teach their children the faith. In the local Church - it is the Bishop who has the primary role of teacher.
I agree. In the domestic church, the parents are the primary educators of their children in the faith, and in the local church, the Bishop is the primary teacher. The Bishop can also appoint lay catechists to teach, but they must always be in full communion with their bishops when handing on the faith.
I just can’t see the role of the laity in the official formulation of the Faith - that is involved in the Councils and Episcopal Declarations.
The Pope, Patriarchs, and Bishops can take into account the contributions of everyone (priests, deacons, and lay people) in their works of exegesis and theology, but they remain the final official interpreters of the Faith. Vatican II - Dei Verbum - Article 12.3 says something about this. As I mentioned earlier, the ecclesiology of the Chaldean and Assyrian Churches regard the Patriarch, not the lay people, as having the final say on matters.
 
Continued…
I don’t know your feelings on this (many Eastern Christians don’t seem to like this analogy), but the analogy I am thinking of is that of a monarchy. Not that the Pope is a king - no, he is not. The King is Jesus. And the Pope is His vicar - that is Jesus has bestowed upon his vicars (there is really more than just one) his authority. The Pope is the chief vicar in charge of the entire kingdom and the Bishops are likened to vicars of particular sections of the kingdom (though an analogy of vasselship is inappropriate here). The Bishops have the authority over their section and over larger sections of the kingdom when in council with other Bishops. The Pope has a higher hierarchial standing (someone mentioned the notion of Archpatriach). The important thing to know, is that with any monarchy, it depends a lot on the monarch. He must be a good and holy man to use the authority granted him for the good and service of the kingdom. Many times we have good Popes who do just that. But at times we get bad Popes who put their desires before the needs of the Church - but compared to other monarchies in history, I think we have a good batting average. The King will prevent His vicar from binding the Church in error, but that doesn’t stop a Pope from being a jerk (to put it mildly).
I hope I didn’t forget anything and explained my thoughts well and clear enough.
The notion of the Church as the Kingdom of God (or of Heaven) on earth with Jesus as the King of Kings is very scriptural. It’s based on the Davidic Kingdom since Jesus is the son of David, but it is “not of this world” (John 18:36). In other words, it is not a political kingdom.

In this kingdom, I see the Pope of Rome as a “prime minister” among the “ministers” who are to collectively keep it in communion and peace. The issue with the various ecclesiologies is not so much the Kingdom and Kingship of Christ, but rather the role that the prime minister plays with the other ministers.

I don’t have a problem with the Pope of Rome having the authority to keep the whole Church in communion and peace with one another in addition to his Patriarchal duty of keeping the Latin Church in peace and communion. I do, however, think that collegiality is important, in that, the Pope of Rome should always exercise his ministry in a way that is not perceived as threatening to the authority that a particular Patriarch has, with his Synod, in their self-governing Church. As head of the College of Bishops, the Bishop of Rome is there to serve them all, and strengthen them as his brothers in the ministry. This is how I understand it, other Easterners might take a different angle on this.
Indeed, one of the Pope’s titles is Servant of the Servants of God. I always see the Pope’s Primacy as a usage of that commission to strengthen the brethren and confirm them in their faith, to feed the sheep.
Servant of the Servants of God is my favorite among the Papal titles.

God bless,

Rony
 
The question of Purgatory, for example, was most clearly defined at Trent using Latin terms, but the teaching of cleansing after death goes back to the ancient Fathers. All Catholics are responsible for upholding the teaching of purification after death, whether explicitly or implicitly, and I know of no Eastern tradition that doesn’t uphold this teaching (what tradition doesn’t offer Liturgies for the dead, or do good works on their behalf?)

On the other hand, nobody is responsible for upholding the specific trappings of these definitions, not even the Latins. It is hardly mandatory for Latins to believe in a literal “fire” in Purgatory, even though Western Councils used such terminology at times to define Purgatory. It is for this reason that the Catholic Church can say that we hold the same Faith with the Oriental Orthodox concerning the nature of the Incarnation; the Orientals use the “miaphysite” terminology and approach, while the Eastern and Latin Catholics use the “duophysite”, terminology and approach, yet we confess the same Faith upheld by Chalcedon that Christ was one Person, both human and Divine.

The only reason we use specific theological models and terminology is because our human minds must convey theological ideas in ways we can understand, and that requires systems and formulas. This doesn’t mean that a given approach is best suited for every theological question, and no human mode of understanding can ever encapsulate God. In every Dogma we are bound by the Truth underlying the terminology, not the human terms themselves.

Non-Latin Catholics must take seriously those things formulated in the West, even if the approach isn’t part of their tradition. Likewise, Latins must take seriously those things upheld in the East even when they aren’t expressed in a manner consistent with Latin tradition. For example, no one in the West can deny that we have a real participation in the Divine despite the fact that this hasn’t been formally defined as such in the West. In the East, however, this was a central controversy that required clarification by Council, and hence the Palamite debates. The issue simply never came up in the West, however, and no Catholic theologians denied that Grace is a real participation of Divinity (the Council of Trent dealt with the issue in an off-hand manner because it related to debates against the Protestants, but it wasn’t a direct issue as it was during the Palamite Councils).

So no Latin can deny real participation in the Divine because it is a Catholic Truth; a Truth defined in the East while never having been a dogmatic issue in the West. It’s binding in the West simply by weight of Tradition, where in the East the Tradition was in dispute; should it ever become an issue in the West I’m sure we’d look to the Eastern Councils for guidance on the matter. Likewise the non-Latin Catholics should take very seriously everything taught at Trent, not because there was a Protestant Reformation in the East, but because it represents a Catholic response to such an event.

IMO, the whole question of what is “binding” and what isn’t is a rather silly obsession, as if we can simply ignore those things that don’t fit neatly into our modern categories. It smacks of the very legalism that many non-Latins accuse Latins of all the time, in fact. I prefer to say that all Churches in Communion must uphold the same Faith, no matter the differences in approach or expression, and sometimes this means that certain issues are simply left in the shadows, not because of utter disregard, but rather because of general inapplicability; they can be regarded as being implicitly upheld by virtue of Communion, without the need of explicit adherence to alien theological approaches. 🙂

As for matters of “dispute”, I think that polemics have no place within a Communion. A Latin has no place denying theosis as a heresy, and a Byzantine Catholic likewise has no place decrying the filioque; our traditions may approach these issues from wildly different directions, but we can’t be in Communion while accusing each other of heretical errors.

Peace and God bless!
Excellent post as always, in particular putting it on its head with the Palamite council, and the absence of the discussion/problem in the West.

Happy New Year.
 
Originally Posted by ronyodish:
The notion of the Church as the Kingdom of God (or of Heaven) on earth with Jesus as the King of Kings is very scriptural. It’s based on the Davidic Kingdom since Jesus is the son of David, but it is “not of this world” (John 18:36). In other words, it is not a political kingdom.
In this kingdom, I see the Pope of Rome as a “prime minister” among the “ministers” who are to collectively keep it in communion and peace. The issue with the various ecclesiologies is not so much the Kingdom and Kingship of Christ, but rather the role that the prime minister plays with the other ministers.
Concerning the second paragraph:

It seems so clear. But what did the Church Fathers have to say about Eliakim (the prime minister of the Davidic Kingdom)? About the Bishop of Rome as being “prime minister” among ministers in the communion (in the manner of Eliakim)? … I can’t find anything by the Fathers which makes this connection (although the connection between the Davidic Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven is much more readily provided) .

Also, what then would Isaiah 22:25 (“the peg fastened into a solid place will come loose. It will be cut off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off”) typologically indicate about the Bishop of Rome? Hahn and others quote the first half about Eliakim being given authority, but seem to jump over the latter half. Also, to ponder: Eliakim is given the “key,” whereas Peter is given the “keys.”
 
Concerning the second paragraph:
It seems so clear. But what did the Church Fathers have to say about Eliakim (the prime minister of the Davidic Kingdom)? About the Bishop of Rome as being “prime minister” among ministers in the communion (in the manner of Eliakim)? … I can’t find anything by the Fathers which makes this connection (although the connection between the Davidic Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven is much more readily provided) .
Madaglan,

I’m sorry, I haven’t researched much the Church Fathers’ exegesis/teaching on Eliakim and how that relates to the Bishop of Rome. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I am on Patristics can make a comment here.

Based on the Davidic Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven typology, I can see as a consequence of that typological relationship some things relating to the Davidic Kingdom being fulfilled by the Kingdom of Heaven. For example, the prime minister and ministers being fulfilled by Peter and the apostles, the queen mother being fulfilled by Mary, the thanksgiving offering being fulfilled by the Qurbana (Eucharist).
Also, what then would Isaiah 22:25 (“the peg fastened into a solid place will come loose. It will be cut off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off”) typologically indicate about the Bishop of Rome? Hahn and others quote the first half about Eliakim being given authority, but seem to jump over the latter half.
In searching online, I came across this old thread. It has some information that might be helpful.
Also, to ponder: Eliakim is given the “key,” whereas Peter is given the “keys.”
I’m not sure exactly why you mentioned this, but just so you know, in the Peshitta, the Aramaic “qleede” is the plural for the English “keys”, and this plural appears in both the passages of Eliakim and Peter.

God bless,

Rony
 
Originally Posted by ronyodish:
I’m not sure exactly why you mentioned this, but just so you know, in the Peshitta, the Aramaic “qleede” is the plural for the English “keys”, and this plural appears in both the passages of Eliakim and Peter.
I’m not familiar with the Peshitta, except basically knowing what it is. What in Aramaic is the singular for the English “keys”?
 
I’m not familiar with the Peshitta, except basically knowing what it is. What in Aramaic is the singular for the English “keys”?
“qleedha”

God bless,

Rony
 
Concerning the second paragraph:

It seems so clear. But what did the Church Fathers have to say about Eliakim (the prime minister of the Davidic Kingdom)? About the Bishop of Rome as being “prime minister” among ministers in the communion (in the manner of Eliakim)? … I can’t find anything by the Fathers which makes this connection (although the connection between the Davidic Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven is much more readily provided) .

Also, what then would Isaiah 22:25 (“the peg fastened into a solid place will come loose. It will be cut off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off”) typologically indicate about the Bishop of Rome? Hahn and others quote the first half about Eliakim being given authority, but seem to jump over the latter half. Also, to ponder: Eliakim is given the “key,” whereas Peter is given the “keys.”
Since the Douay-Rheims glossed Isaiah “The prophet laments the devastation of Juda. He foretells the deprivation of Sobna, and the substitution of Eliacim, a figure of Christ” I’m guessing there is no patristics for how the Latins apologists interpret it now, which must have happened since 1750.
 
However, both are spelled the same, only the plural dots (if added) indicate the difference.
Yes, when writing, the plural dots indicate the difference, and the plural dots appear in both passages of the OT and NT copy that I have.

When speaking, there is also a slight difference in the pronunciation between the singular and the plural.

God bless,

Rony
 
Yes, when writing, the plural dots indicate the difference, and the plural dots appear in both passages of the OT and NT copy that I have.

When speaking, there is also a slight difference in the pronunciation between the singular and the plural.

God bless,

Rony
I knew YOU knew that.🙂

Just those who are unfortunate enough not to know the Lord’s language wouldn’t.

For them to see what they are missing:

Matthew 16:19
ܠܟ ܐܬܠ
**ܩܠܝܕܐ **
ܕܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ ܘܟܠ ܡܕܡ ܕܬܐܤܘܪ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܐܤܝܪ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܘܡܕܡ ܕܬܫܪܐ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܫܪܐ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܀

And since inquiring minds want to know, Matthew 16:18
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠܥܕܬܝ ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ ܀
 
Originally Posted by Isa Almisry:
I knew YOU knew that.🙂
Just those who are unfortunate enough not to know the Lord’s language wouldn’t.
For them to see what they are missing:
Matthew 16:19
ܠܟ ܐܬܠ
**ܩܠܝܕܐ **
ܕܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ ܘܟܠ ܡܕܡ ܕܬܐܤܘܪ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܐܤܝܪ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܘܡܕܡ ܕܬܫܪܐ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܫܪܐ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܀
And since inquiring minds want to know, Matthew 16:18
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠܥܕܬܝ ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ ܀
Sweet deal. Thank you.
 
I knew YOU knew that.🙂

Just those who are unfortunate enough not to know the Lord’s language wouldn’t.

For them to see what they are missing:

Matthew 16:19
ܠܟ ܐܬܠ
**ܩܠܝܕܐ **
ܕܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ ܘܟܠ ܡܕܡ ܕܬܐܤܘܪ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܐܤܝܪ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܘܡܕܡ ܕܬܫܪܐ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܫܪܐ ܒܫܡܝܐ ܀

And since inquiring minds want to know, Matthew 16:18
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ
**ܟܐܦܐ **
ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠܥܕܬܝ ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ ܀
Man, this looks Greek to me! haha, j/k 😛

This is Western Syriac, I prefer Eastern! 😃 No, seriously, I was trained on Eastern Syriac (being a Chaldean). I have not reached the fluency level, but I can manage to read Eastern Syriac slowly, but faster than Western. Also, I’m still learning many of the vocab words.

Also, this script is naked! There are no vowel sounds, and even the plural dots are missing. This is like Estrangela, but strangely without using the Estrangela letters! :confused: I mean I love the simple and uncluttered Estrangela script, especially for titles, but it’s harder to pronounce, being without the vowel sounds (unless of course one knows the words ahead of time 😉 ).

I remember not too long ago in another forum, you showed me from where you picked up this Syriac bible, but I forgot which site it was. I forgot to bookmark it, and I may need to look it up sometimes to compare it with the hard copies that I have. What is the site address again?

By the way, for everyone, I recommend studying the Aramaic language, the language of Christ! If you live near a Chaldean church (or another Aramaic speaking Apostolic church), they may offer free Aramaic classes (except probably the books which you would pay for). If you have the time for it, you should check it out! So far on this forum, I have only interacted with Isa who also studied this ancient Apostolic language. I hope more of you will learn it too one day. Once you learn one Semitic language, it becomes easier to learn the others (Hebrew, Arabic, etc.).

I think we have digressed from the topic of this thread: the Melkite Catholic Church.

God bless,

Rony
 
Man, this looks Greek to me! haha, j/k 😛

This is Western Syriac, I prefer Eastern! 😃 No, seriously, I was trained on Eastern Syriac (being a Chaldean). I have not reached the fluency level, but I can manage to read Eastern Syriac slowly, but faster than Western. Also, I’m still learning many of the vocab words.
Actually its Estrangelo, Western Style.

I have the opposite problem. A third of my M.A. exam was in Eastern, and it was a PAIN!😃
Also, this script is naked! There are no vowel sounds, and even the plural dots are missing. This is like Estrangela, but strangely without using the Estrangela letters! :confused: I mean I love the simple and uncluttered Estrangela script, especially for titles, but it’s harder to pronounce, being without the vowel sounds (unless of course one knows the words ahead of time 😉 ).
We Semites like our women covered and our letters naked.😛

The computer programers it seems have less patience than the scribes in putting marks in.
I remember not too long ago in another forum, you showed me from where you picked up this Syriac bible, but I forgot which site it was. I forgot to bookmark it, and I may need to look it up sometimes to compare it with the hard copies that I have. What is the site address again?
I got this off

biblos.com/
By the way, for everyone, I recommend studying the Aramaic language, the language of Christ! If you live near a Chaldean church (or another Aramaic speaking Apostolic church), they may offer free Aramaic classes (except probably the books which you would pay for). If you have the time for it, you should check it out! So far on this forum, I have only interacted with Isa who also studied this ancient Apostolic language. I hope more of you will learn it too one day. Once you learn one Semitic language, it becomes easier to learn the others (Hebrew, Arabic, etc.).
There is a decent grammar for the classic language Syriac (not exactly the same, but close) by Wheeler Thackston, with exercises etc.

Sebastian Brock is translating a lot of the treasures of this language.

Biblical Aramiac has a grammar by Rosenthal “Biblical Aramaic,” but it presupposes some knowledge of Hebrew (at least I wondered how someone with no Hebrew would get through it).
I think we have digressed from the topic of this thread: the Melkite Catholic Church.
Perhaps not: after all, Melkite is an Aramaic word!😛
 
There is a decent grammar for the classic language Syriac (not exactly the same, but close) by Wheeler Thackston, with exercises etc.

Sebastian Brock is translating a lot of the treasures of this language.

Biblical Aramiac has a grammar by Rosenthal “Biblical Aramaic,” but it presupposes some knowledge of Hebrew (at least I wondered how someone with no Hebrew would get through it).

Perhaps not: after all, Melkite is an Aramaic word!😛
I just started going through Wheeler Thackston’s book. I have wanted to learn Syriac for a while but every time I have tried to go through the book I haven’t stuck with it. Hopefully this time I will.
 
The Vatican and the Orthodox both agree that it is inopportune to have a church in communion with both the Orthodox and Rome at the same time.
This post and in paticular this sentence leaves me with a lot of questions. I pray for unity between the orthodox and us Catholics everyday but it needs to be a union that is meaningful and not just for political correctness of convenience. I did once hear that the Melkites had accomplished communion with both the Pope and the orthodox but I thought it couldn’t be true. Catholics are Catholic regardless of Rite because we hold the Catholic faith. We aren’t cafateria Christian. We may do slightly different things that reflect out culture and stress different aspect but our faith is supposed to be the same.

I suppose, considering the state of orthodoxy, that it might be possible for the Melkites to be in communion with them and Rome and not get an objection from the orthodox. The issue at had is would they get an objection from Rome. No matter who else they are in communion with, the Catholic faith much still be expressed. This includes the Primacy of the Pope. People speak about and argue over infallibility but at the end of the day it is quite a bit less important then straight Papal Primacy. If the Melkites reject that (and I am not accusing because I don’t know) then they would stop expressing the pure and true Catholic faith. It isn’t a Primacy of Honor as the orthodox claim either.

There is also the issue of which Bishop of Rome the Melkites (this they have double communion) acknowledges. The orthodox supposidy replaced the Pope with a bishop appointed by the patriarch of Constantinople who now claim Italy as part of his territory.

No where in any orthodox liturature, website or official statement do they claim that the Melkites have communion with them. Maybe it doesn’t matter how much we move to communion with them (orthodox) they won’t claim us. Only the Catholic Church claims the Melkites as part of our own and for me that is great proof that the Melkites, even if they have some sort of informal communion with the East, are still in full communion with us and any other relationship is only secondary.

I send all my love and support to the Melkites, Maronites and all the Eastern Catholic Churches that are holding fast to the true faith. May they be a guiding light to those around them, Christian or not, to the one true faith of the Catholic Church, Ιησους.

Truely if there are any people on the planet that truely accept Christ in all he is, as our King, Teacher, Master, Companion, Savior, and Highest of High Priest, it is the Catholic Church and those in it that truely submit to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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